New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

Angel Ariel

Well-Known Member
It just seems like this discussion is trying to put people in a box because of disability. "You struggle with x in y situation, so that means you must struggle with x in z situation the same way, so you shouldn't be able to do that". Especially in our experience with developmental disability - it's just not that linear and simple.

I can't explain without sharing information that can be used by cheaters, but it truly just is not linear like that. Something that works one day in one situation won't work the next in the same situation but will work later that day in a different situation. Every day is constant adaptation. it's often frustrating for DD moreso than anyone. I wish it were all linear and simple, but it just isn't.
 

Chi84

Premium Member
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Disney just may actually know what it's doing with these changes.

The varied and particularized needs by disabled persons visiting a large theme park are difficult to accommodate within the bounds of the ADA unless a program gives out an accommodation that fits everyone, like DAS. But DAS is unworkable because it's too close to Genie+, which is in itself a valuable service, leading to abuse at worst and overuse at best. And the DOJ advises businesses not to inquire into the nature and extent of a disability (in some cases, like service dogs, DOJ regulations actually prohibit all but two questions).

The DOJ regulations do not cover line-skip accommodations (skipping the physical line, not the wait), leaving Disney open to the broader "spirit" of the ADA, which is inclusivity as much as possible. So - unlike accessible seating or parking - no impact studies have been done and no guidance is given to the business as to how much negative impact is considered reasonable.

Court cases deal with particular plaintiffs, and a plaintiff suing Disney on the basis that their particular physical disability cannot be accommodated with line accommodations will need evidence in the form of medical expert testimony as to why that is true. Disney will also present experts. Look at what was said by the court in A.L. when he advanced all the reasons DAS would not work for him. The court considered all of the other things he could do and the advance preparations he could have made to deal with his disability in navigating the parks. The court did not concede to his choice, nor did it place all the burden on the business.

RTQ is going to be difficult for Disney for the reasons stated in this thread. But having a medical expert at each attraction is too great a burden for any business and the ADA doesn't allow businesses to go into the disability anyway - so the choice under the ADA is to accept a person's representations and give them a return time or accommodate them the best way possible with accommodations in line. Disney will have statistics and actual evidence to show what is happening with RTQ if someone challenges it and, as stated above, the person saying it was necessary is going to have to prove it with hard evidence to a court. If plaintiffs establish RTQ is necessary, then the analysis shifts to whether providing it would cause a fundamental alteration in the services Disney provides to its guests - which now includes selling line-skips to both disabled and non disabled people.

So limiting DAS to conditions like autism and the like, which by their very nature make standing in line impossible, is the way Disney has chosen to go. If a person with autism or a developmental disability is denied DAS and sued (almost an inevitability), that particular plaintiff will have to introduce the type of evidence introduced by A.L.
 

VJ

Well-Known Member
It's been a very long day in a very long week and I'm in a good amount of pain right now, so i just honestly don't have the bandwidth to go google and bring back sources and such. There's a lot readily available to read online (though don't go looking to the ADA for flight/airline stuff - that's regulated under another act I believe).

I appreciate the question and I know you are sincere, so please know my response right now is also sincere and not at all snarky. If I had the bandwidth I'd happily engage - I just don't have it in me tonight and didn't want you to think I was ignoring you
i just want you to know that you should never feel like you have to do other people's research for them if you're not feeling up to it (or even if you are). if people have access to the internet, they have access to google, and can find out what they need to know themselves 🫂
 

Fido Chuckwagon

Well-Known Member
The ride warnings are great for when it's an absolute. When it's a matter of degrees or tolerance level (ie you can handle some amount but there's a limit), then warnings are less helpful. Sometimes experience is the only way to know.
Sure there’s a range. But boy, I’m struggling to see the intersection of the Venn Diagram of “People who have such severe back problems they need DAS” and “People who are able to ride really rocky/violent rides like Kilimanjaro Safaris and Expedition Everest.”

I’m going to go out on a limb here and conclude that Disney also struggled to see why so many people seemed to fill into that tiny/nonexistent intersection, and that’s why the rules have now been tightened up quite a bit.
 

Angel Ariel

Well-Known Member
Sure there’s a range. But boy, I’m struggling to see the intersection of the Venn Diagram of “People who have such severe back problems they need DAS” and “People who are able to ride really rocky/violent rides like Kilimanjaro Safaris and Expedition Everest.”

I’m going to go out on a limb here and conclude that Disney also struggled to see why so many people seemed to fill into that tiny/nonexistent intersection, and that’s why the rules have now been tightened up quite a bit.
And DAS is not supposed to be for physical issues any more, so I'm not sure why it keeps coming back to that (as I haven't argued, and in fact have agreed that DAS changes were needed).

But that you're struggling to see an intersection - regardless of what the particular disability/ies in question are - doesn't mean they don't exist. The bottom line is - once DAS as it is now is given for whatever reason, Disney doesn't have the right to go through and say "but you can't use it here, here, or here because of your disability."
 

Disney Glimpses

Well-Known Member
And DAS is not supposed to be for physical issues any more, so I'm not sure why it keeps coming back to that (as I haven't argued, and in fact have agreed that DAS changes were needed).

But that you're struggling to see an intersection - regardless of what the particular disability/ies in question are - doesn't mean they don't exist. The bottom line is - once DAS as it is now is given for whatever reason, Disney doesn't have the right to go through and say "but you can't use it here, here, or here because of your disability."
Regardless of the nuances, it's pretty clear that Disney is issuing DAS to folks with lifelong, unwavering conditions. Accommodations are always available to everyone at each attraction as needed. We already know that not everyone who needed DAS before needed it 100% of the time. Disney is limiting the pass to folks who need it 100% of the time. And they may not get it right all the time but that's why additional accommodations are available.
 

Angel Ariel

Well-Known Member
Regardless of the nuances, it's pretty clear that Disney is issuing DAS to folks with lifelong, unwavering conditions. Accommodations are always available to everyone at each attraction as needed. We already know that not everyone who needed DAS before needed it 100% of the time. Disney is limiting the pass to folks who need it 100% of the time. And they may not get it right all the time but that's why additional accommodations are available.
Yes, I agree. I haven't been arguing against any of this at all. 🤷‍♀️
 

Disney Glimpses

Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree. I haven't been arguing against any of this at all. 🤷‍♀️
Sorry, it wasn't intended as a rebuttal and in hindsight it probably didn't make sense to quote you specifically 😓

In any event, I am sure Disney did use many, many data sources to make their determinations. For example, how many folks who cited back pain went on to ride TRON or Everest. When it comes to this stuff, I put nothing past them.
 

Touchdown

Well-Known Member
Happy Saturday all, once again MK is not showing up on this list, but it’s a pretty miserable experience at Epcot and DHS. I think we are starting to see some patterns that this may be affected by APs (who are using DAS) as MK is blocked without a reservation from APs on weekends. I’m on central time currently so it’s 12:37 in Orlando.
IMG_4814.jpeg
 

Fido Chuckwagon

Well-Known Member
In any event, I am sure Disney did use many, many data sources to make their determinations. For example, how many folks who cited back pain went on to ride TRON or Everest.
This is good to know. There are people in this thread who admitted to doing this sort of thing, and it’s good to know that that type of activity is likely what caused those same people to be restricted in the new system.
 

Fido Chuckwagon

Well-Known Member
Happy Saturday all, once again MK is not showing up on this list, but it’s a pretty miserable experience at Epcot and DHS. I think we are starting to see some patterns that this may be affected by APs (who are using DAS) as MK is blocked without a reservation from APs on weekends. I’m on central time currently so it’s 12:37 in Orlando.View attachment 788788
MK wait times look lovely right now. 7DMT at 65 and everything else lower than that at a quarter to 1? Jungle Cruise at 35? Yeah that’s pretty decent.
 

jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Disney just may actually know what it's doing with these changes.

The varied and particularized needs by disabled persons visiting a large theme park are difficult to accommodate within the bounds of the ADA unless a program gives out an accommodation that fits everyone, like DAS. But DAS is unworkable because it's too close to Genie+, which is in itself a valuable service, leading to abuse at worst and overuse at best. And the DOJ advises businesses not to inquire into the nature and extent of a disability (in some cases, like service dogs, DOJ regulations actually prohibit all but two questions).

The DOJ regulations do not cover line-skip accommodations (skipping the physical line, not the wait), leaving Disney open to the broader "spirit" of the ADA, which is inclusivity as much as possible. So - unlike accessible seating or parking - no impact studies have been done and no guidance is given to the business as to how much negative impact is considered reasonable.

Court cases deal with particular plaintiffs, and a plaintiff suing Disney on the basis that their particular physical disability cannot be accommodated with line accommodations will need evidence in the form of medical expert testimony as to why that is true. Disney will also present experts. Look at what was said by the court in A.L. when he advanced all the reasons DAS would not work for him. The court considered all of the other things he could do and the advance preparations he could have made to deal with his disability in navigating the parks. The court did not concede to his choice, nor did it place all the burden on the business.

RTQ is going to be difficult for Disney for the reasons stated in this thread. But having a medical expert at each attraction is too great a burden for any business and the ADA doesn't allow businesses to go into the disability anyway - so the choice under the ADA is to accept a person's representations and give them a return time or accommodate them the best way possible with accommodations in line. Disney will have statistics and actual evidence to show what is happening with RTQ if someone challenges it and, as stated above, the person saying it was necessary is going to have to prove it with hard evidence to a court. If plaintiffs establish RTQ is necessary, then the analysis shifts to whether providing it would cause a fundamental alteration in the services Disney provides to its guests - which now includes selling line-skips to both disabled and non disabled people.

So limiting DAS to conditions like autism and the like, which by their very nature make standing in line impossible, is the way Disney has chosen to go. If a person with autism or a developmental disability is denied DAS and sued (almost an inevitability), that particular plaintiff will have to introduce the type of evidence introduced by A.L.
I disagree that they know what they are doing. I think that they believe that the majority of people are lying. This is evident in the return to line feature. I truly believe that they think that the inconvenience will put off the cheaters, and it probably will. But I think that they have no clue on how many people actually have these medical issues. This is going to be a problem for a lot of people with legitimate bathroom issues.
I know that some people think that it is reasonable for families to be separated for a good chunk of their vacation, but maybe because I am older and have seen some serious stuff in life, but I think that it is heartless.
They need to find a way to separate the liars from those with legitimate needs.
 

jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
Sorry, it wasn't intended as a rebuttal and in hindsight it probably didn't make sense to quote you specifically 😓

In any event, I am sure Disney did use many, many data sources to make their determinations. For example, how many folks who cited back pain went on to ride TRON or Everest. When it comes to this stuff, I put nothing past them.
I guess I am not understanding why some of you think that back pain from standing in one place equates to not being able to go on a roller coaster or the safari? I have spent 35+ years working on my feet so they are messed up, which snowballs into the knees, hips, and backs also taking the hit. I am one of those who can not stand on hard concrete in one place for long and need to move about or everything up the line starts hurting. I am constantly shifting from one foot to another, walking in little circles, putting a foot up on the rail, etc. That doesn't mean that I can not go on bumpy rides because my back is not damaged like that. It is the act of standing still on a hard surface that is the problem. I also can not sit for long. When I am at home, I have a big office chair that I sit criss cross on because that is best for my back. I also have orthopedic shoes.
Many people have this issue. Working on your feet for decades messes you up. I don't think that anyone should be telling others how to deal with their medical issues because you just don't know what people are going through, what caused their issues, etc.
 

Chi84

Premium Member
I disagree that they know what they are doing. I think that they believe that the majority of people are lying. This is evident in the return to line feature. I truly believe that they think that the inconvenience will put off the cheaters, and it probably will. But I think that they have no clue on how many people actually have these medical issues. This is going to be a problem for a lot of people with legitimate bathroom issues.
I know that some people think that it is reasonable for families to be separated for a good chunk of their vacation, but maybe because I am older and have seen some serious stuff in life, but I think that it is heartless.
They need to find a way to separate the liars from those with legitimate needs.
I think the answer is in your post, referring to how many people actually have these medical issues. They're looking at it from the perspective of not being able to accommodate them all with DAS. As to how to find a way to separate them, that's up to the ADA. Right now, the provisions hamstring businesses like Disney. If you can't question someone as to the nature and extent of a disability, how do you separate the liars from those with legitimate needs?

The ADA wants persons with disabilities to be able to have easy access to facilities without having to provide documentation or answer questions, and that is an excellent goal. But it's possible that certain facilities may not have the ability to offer everyone accommodations under those circumstances without fundamentally altering their business model and hurting their services to other guests.
 

Club Cooloholic

Well-Known Member
I guess I am not understanding why some of you think that back pain from standing in one place equates to not being able to go on a roller coaster or the safari? I have spent 35+ years working on my feet so they are messed up, which snowballs into the knees, hips, and backs also taking the hit. I am one of those who can not stand on hard concrete in one place for long and need to move about or everything up the line starts hurting. I am constantly shifting from one foot to another, walking in little circles, putting a foot up on the rail, etc. That doesn't mean that I can not go on bumpy rides because my back is not damaged like that. It is the act of standing still on a hard surface that is the problem. I also can not sit for long. When I am at home, I have a big office chair that I sit criss cross on because that is best for my back. I also have orthopedic shoes.
Many people have this issue. Working on your feet for decades messes you up. I don't think that anyone should be telling others how to deal with their medical issues because you just don't know what people are going through, what caused their issues, etc.
It could be interesting to see where this goes. A little person, adult or not, is simply not allowed to ride certain rides due to not meeting safety requirements. I could certainly see a legal argument being made that customers claiming certain physical disabilities would be barred from rides that might breach what is considered a safety standard. Again we aren't talking Peter Pan. It sounds farfetched but law is ever evolving and so are how companies deal with it.
 
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Grantwil93

Well-Known Member
I largely expect wait time impacts to be most noticeable during very, very busy times. I would be surprised if we still see LL queues extended way beyond attraction entrances.
Disney only wants that to happen when it's unavoidable. Like an extended ride stoppage.

The lightning lane back ups out the door at rides that are running optimally is such a bad look. And they know it.

No reason Nemo should be so overloaded in the LL that it's around the building in the gift shop or Remy LL is back by Aurora's Gazebo. But stuff like that or worse happens all over Disney World. I'm really hoping the dramatic drop in unplanned LL capacity will smooth the operation. The Snowball effect of too much LL leading to a non moving standby line is something Disney is working on.

In fact, just a few days ago I got a peak at some of the line tracking they do and it was really cool. They are definitely trying to smooth out the mess they created with DAS and G+.
 
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jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
I think the answer is in your post, referring to how many people actually have these medical issues. They're looking at it from the perspective of not being able to accommodate them all with DAS. As to how to find a way to separate them, that's up to the ADA. Right now, the provisions hamstring businesses like Disney. If you can't question someone as to the nature and extent of a disability, how do you separate the liars from those with legitimate needs?

The ADA wants persons with disabilities to be able to have easy access to facilities without having to provide documentation or answer questions, and that is an excellent goal. But it's possible that certain facilities may not have the ability to offer everyone accommodations under those circumstances without fundamentally altering their business model and hurting their services to other guests.
But how does a company pick and choose who is disabled "enough"? This is the crux of the issue with what Disney is doing now. They are arbitrarily saying yes and no to people without really knowing the full scope of someone's medical issue. I truly don't know how this can be solved but denying people accommodations is not the way. Especially since this is a problem created by them by allowing too many people in the parks without having enough things to spread everyone out. As been said many times, this is a capacity issue. They should look at fixing that too.
 

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