Monorail to MGM

[Monorail Lime]

Fantasai Boi does NOT deserve to be called a "monorail detractor". As he stated earlier in this thread he is a huge monorail enthusiast. He is an active member of the Monorail Society, the only group which really does anything to promote monorail technology.

For someone like him to be against monorail expansion at WDW, you gotta know it is a bad idea. He is a Transportation Cast member, he's driven the monorails, he's driven the busses, he's spent countless hours experiencing first hand how the system works. You haven't. He knows that expanding the monorail would NOT enhance guest experience no matter how awesome and cool it would look.

Walt built his park on the theme of guest service and making people happy. Dazzling guests with expensive technology that would ultimately inconvenience them is NOT in line with Walt's Dream for the park.

 

[cymbaldiva]

I never said for one moment that Fantasia Boi didn't know what he is talking about . Of course he does...it is his job, and I'm sure he does it very well

Of course the monorail can't be everywhere all of the time to take guests wherever they want to go (it is a pretty kewl dream though! :animwink: ) - I don't think that a monorail to MGM would be that big a stretch though...

Would it?

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
I think that Fantasai Boi and the other monorail detractors must work for Pressler.

Excuse me? Have you read ANYTHING that I have posted?! I have explained that a monorail expansion would not work, not only for money, but for many, MANY other LOGISTICAL reasons... However... if you want to focus on the money... I can do that.

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
And just for the record making a connection from the Epcot station to go to MGM (which would only be like a mile or two at most away) is nothing like the 7 miles from MK to Epcot and would be relatively simple.

Okay, well, first... TTC to Epcot is about 3.5 miles each way, for a total round trip of approx 7 miles. (And for reference, both the Express and Resort are 3 miles)

Let's examine this, for a minute. Supposing we go with your plan to incorporate it into one route, instead of having a transfer. We'd need to demolish, and alter part of the Epcot beam. Then, we'd need to add in the new expansion guideway. I'm estimating that we'd need about 3 additional miles of beamway to complete the addition. Plus, we'd need to modify the Epcot station, and build a whole new Studios station. Plus you'd need additional rectifiers for power... and more trains... Now you need a bigger shop... (which has a whole ton of expensive switchbeams)

New Beamway: 90m per mile x 3mi = 270mil
Alteration of old beamway: 50m
New stations: 10m
New Shop: 75m
New Trains: 4 trains @ 17m = 68m

Now, figure in misc expenses, and "over-budget" and whatnot... and its around $500million... And who would pay for it? None of the resorts benefit from it, so we can't ask them to foot the bill.

Well, that's a heck of a lot of money there. But let's examine how many people we'd be affecting, to see if it would be worth it.

TTC <--> Studios averages 150-200 people per hour per direction. 250 during peak times.
Epcot <--> Studios via bus averages 150/pphpd

So... hourly... per direction... we'd only be moving 400 people. Averaging a train every 7 minutes (the current Epcot interval) 50 people per train. 15% capacity...

So... here we have an under-utilized $500million project, with no one to pay for it. If you think that is a realistic thing... then remind me never to invest in any business venture you start up.

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
It really doesn't sound that unrealistic or difficult to me.

Well, you know what? There's a LOT of ideas that don't sound unrealistic or difficult to me, either... However, for whatever reason, they are.

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
Again, thankfully none of you were around when it came to building the monorail to Epcot! Heck---maybe even Epcot would have been too unrealistic!

Scroll up a few posts, and find where I commented on this EXACT issue. 1982 is a bit different that 2002. Things are a bit different. Oh, and just so you know... the monorail is a NON-revenue generating item. Epcot makes money. A whole ton of it. BIG difference.

 

[MrPromey]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
cymbaldiva---

Sorry, but I am so sick and tired of hearing of its too expensive, it can't be done, it's too unrealistic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, excuse, excuse, excuse....

Although I do realize that even these detractors here really aren't like Pressler (well, maybe ) because they in other instances do seem to care about quality and the old Disney magic.

As far as the can of worms they really only apply to MrPromey! Just kidding! :lol:

And I guess that most of the detractors would lean towards the Roy side of things while I just have nothing but Walt and imagination in mind. Although, in the end Walt and Roy really need each other and a good mix of the two can go a long long way. (Just don't ever let anyone else know this -- it's our secret :lookaroun :lookaroun :lookaroun )

<sigh> I still contend that the person who started this thread was the one that opened the can of worms. My point is simply that for as tired as you have gotten of hearing people say it can’t be done, it shouldn’t be done, it wouldn’t work, I’m tired of people who don’t come up with original ideas for how it can be done or counter any of the reasons for why it can’t be done that continue to fill this thread. Why are you so gung-ho about the monorail? Why must that be the end all solution to what exists now? Why don’t you even care that it would cost astronomical amounts of money and still not be as efficient as what they already have?

I get the fact that Disney isn’t about being practical. A big ball supported by legs housing a ride is not practical. A big artificial tree is not practical. I understand that some of the most amazing things in all of WDW would not be considered practical INCLUDING the monorail. The point that you all seem to be totally missing though is that when it comes to moving as many people around as Disney does, they HAVE to be practical. Transportation is a utility just like the bathrooms or trash pickup. Figuring how to stock all the carts with cold drinks on a hot summer day has to be done in a practical manner; Making sure that there are enough working restrooms for guests in high traffic areas has to be done in a practical and realistic manner; Making sure that there is enough lighting to allow guest to safely navigate public areas of WDW at night on foot is a matter that has to be handled in a practical way. How about they turn off all the lights in Adventure Land and make you carry torches at night to give it that extra touch? Transportation is the same thing.

I’m sure that if you polled every guest at WDW on any given day and asked them if they thought Disney should have monorail service everywhere, most would say that they should. Most probably wouldn’t even think about the problems with monorails till they try to leave the MK after a Spectromagic on a busy night. When discussing transportation, we aren’t talking about the parks. I love riding the train in the MK. It’s probably one of the most boring attractions in the parks for most peole and you can get from Main Street to Toon Town a LOT faster by walking than you can by taking the train but either way, you’re inside the gates of the park. You are there and as a guest, you have that choice on how you want to spend the time that you have paid for available to you. When getting to and from the park, most guests don’t have this kind of choice. Some guests may have no problem spending an extra 15-25 minutes waiting for monorails and making transfers to get to a resort but I’m sure that for most guest trying to get to the parks in the moorings and trying to get back to their rooms at night, they’d rather not spend the extra time or deal with the hassles that come with a transfer. Busses are not cool, they aren’t magical and there isn’t a whole lot that’s fun about them. There isn’t anything fun or cool about standing in a packed monorail after watching a few go by as you wait in line, either. There’s nothing incredibly cool about having to get up a half an hour earlier to be at a park when it opens or getting back to your resort where you can relax in your room or at the pool a half hour later. It has been made abundantly clear by people that deal with Disney transportation every day that there is absolutely no need for a monorail type system for transportation from park to park because there is not enough day long guest traffic.. So what are we left with? They should build monorails because they are cool even though it will cost a ton of money and add complication to a guests stay as well as cause delays in guest travel? Oh, I’m not seeing the big picture, right? I’m being closed minded because there has got to be a way, right? Well what is that magical way? What is the way that monorails can be used in an efficient manner to make the average WDW guest’s experience better instead of worse? How about they use horse drawn carts to get people from their rooms to the parks? Sure, it would cost a lot more and take a lot longer and capacity would be lower and there are the problems with things like the heat in Florida and no AC but it still would be a lot more unique than taking busses, wouldn’t it? What? You don’t think that would be a better than what they have now? What’s wrong with you? You think it would be “unrealistic, blah, blah, blah, blah”?

As for calling us the Presler’s of the group, I might also mention that the construction costs for Epcot were a contributing factor for Disney nearly going under and being sold in pieces with the parks controlled by one company (like a six flags) and the studios and everything else being sold off all of which (parks included) would be run by people who previously had NOTHING to do with the Disney that we all know and love. While I agree that cost cutting has become a problem in some areas, I don’t think lack of monorail expansion is one of them. (and before someone explained the problems with monorails to me, I did think they were a good idea) As you mentioned, bean counters do have their place and while I don’t think it’s good for them to have too much control, giving the creatives control will run things into the ground from behind the scenes a lot faster. Instead of saying “this place is nothing but shops and cheap rides, I’ll never come back” you’ll be saying “That place was so great, why did they go under”. Which is better? In my opinion they both stink but what do I know? Apparently not much since I can’t grasp how monorails that are about as futuristic as the old Tomorrow Land, are the answer to Disney’s future transportation needs… If you would like to explain it all to me in detail, I’ll be more than willing to read what you have to say with a totally open mind. You can even send it to me in PM form where anything I say back would not be for public spectacle as it is here if you doubt my sincerity on this.

 

[Cliff]

I was told by a monorail pilot that X amount of track used to cost so many million dollars back then..... (BTW, I LOVE the Monorail.)

This figure is much higher today, not JUST because of simple "inflation" but because of labor costs, land fill, local laws, insurance etc...blah, blah.. (BTW, I LOVE the Monorail.)

Now, Disney has done the study on this. Only somebody that has actually seen this paperwork with their own two eyes can truly speak with "financial" athority on this. The rest of us just speculate, theorize with common sense and (of course)regurgitate rumors we know. (BTW, I LOVE the Monorail.)

I LOVE the Lamborghini Diablo. ( Anyone seen this car?,...some people say they are not "practicle"...Dirty rotten LIARS!) (I LOVE the Monorail.)

I have decided to buy one. I don't care how I pay for it...I just want it at ANY cost. Because I'm a "positive" thinker, I'm not concerned about my rent, my power bill, my boat payments, my 401K,....or any other responsibility in my life. I just WANT a Diablo!! (BTW, I LOVE the Monorail.)

My positive mindset and my determination alone will make this happen for me. (BTW, I LOVE the Monorail.)
__________________________________________

Don't get me worng. I REALLY REALLY REALLY DO love the monorail. However, there are other areas of WDW that desperatly need Disney's attention first. (BTW, I LOVE the Monorail.)

CT : - )

(BTW, I LOVE the Monorail.)

 

[RobFL]

A thought...

A monorail from Epcot to MGM would bee required to cross-over Buena Vista Drive (I think that's the name, its passes Downtown Disney). There's no way to get from one park to the other without crossing that road.

The road is plagued with traffic problems and severe accidents are commonplace. Adding a "spectacle" of a Monorail passing overhead would certainly make the road much more hazardous.

Disney learned it's not a good idea to do anything drastic/distracting over their roadways when they had all the accidents associated with changing the signs.

-Rob

 

[cymbaldiva]

Point taken...

Actually it's a very good point and one I can't/shouldn't argue with.

I am a bit confused though... If one is driving on theme-park property anyway, than another monorail shouldn't really make a difference. I mean, I'm driving and there are sooo many sights to catch my eye - what's another monorail?

Disney does need to work on the signs though...I found them a bit hard to follow.

 

[RobFL]

The only time someone drives under the monorail beam is when entering Epcot or MK parking, otherwise, the roads run beside it.

At Buena Vista, it would either have to cross near Backstage Lane or closer to MGM at the gas station. Both areas are very busy traffic-wise.

-Rob

 

[cymbaldiva]

Oh Rob,

They'll learn to cope! No monorail just because some folks can't focus on their driving? :lol:

 

[RobFL]

Originally posted by cymbaldiva
Oh Rob,

They'll learn to cope! No monorail just because some folks can't focus on their driving? :lol:

Actuaally, looking at a map showwing roads and current monorail lines, I can't find a route that makes any sort of sense.

It would be easier to run it from the TTC to MGM and skip Epcot than to go from Epcot to MGM. The Epcot resorts create a real spaghetti mess of roads.

I always thought there should maybe be a "mini-rail" which ran smaller cars like shuttles to and from the smaller places.

It could run at ground level, follow the roads, and simply take the right of way like a street car when crossing intesections.

-Rob

 

[cymbaldiva]

I could live with that! :animwink:

 

[Monorail Lime]

Actually there are several places the monorail goes over roads other than in the parking lots. It croses Vista Blvd. which goes from the MK Toll Plaza area to Fort Wilderness. It crosses Seven Seas Drive and World Drive up near the TTC. It crosses Epcot Center Drive just east of the World Drive interchange. These are all frequently traveled roads (especially Epcot Center Dr, the others are primarily for resort guests) and I've never heard of the monorail causing any distraction problems.

 

[thedisneyfan]

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi


Excuse me? Have you read ANYTHING that I have posted?!

Yes I have read all of it, and I buy NONE of it! (other than the fact that you have worked for WDW transportation)

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi

Now, figure in misc expenses, and "over-budget" and whatnot... and its around $500million... And who would pay for it? None of the resorts benefit from it, so we can't ask them to foot the bill.

But let's examine how many people we'd be affecting, to see if it would be worth it.

TTC <--> Studios averages 150-200 people per hour per direction. 250 during peak times.
Epcot <--> Studios via bus averages 150/pphpd

So... hourly... per direction... we'd only be moving 400 people. Averaging a train every 7 minutes (the current Epcot interval) 50 people per train. 15% capacity...

So... here we have an under-utilized $500million project, with no one to pay for it. If you think that is a realistic thing... then remind me never to invest in any business venture you start up.

I beg to differ with your numbers! First of all, again, you neglected to factor those who would want to go to MGM from MK and vice versa and your numbers failed to calculate those on the resort loop that would also go to MGM via monorail. Thus, you have discounted thousands and thousands of additional users! Plus, you discount the effect of expansion would have upon total ridership numbers. An expansion means increased interest and excitement and thus ridership. In addition, because more access via the monorail would be available to the resort loop resorts, there would be an added incentive to stay at these deluxe$$ resorts and so occupancy would increase---and $$$ would increase.

In addition, the last time I looked the Yacht & Beach Club, the Boardwalk, and the Swan & Dolphin are located in-between Epcot and MGM, thus, at least some sort of resort stop could be put in and they could chip in on the costs. By the way, this would also mean increased usage and increased occupancy at these resorts as well. Thus, more of your money $$$ ---which you seem to be focused on--- would be available for this expansion.

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi

Scroll up a few posts, and find where I commented on this EXACT issue. 1982 is a bit different that 2002. Things are a bit different. Oh, and just so you know... the monorail is a NON-revenue generating item. Epcot makes money. A whole ton of it. BIG difference.

Once again, I beg to differ that the monorail isn't a revenue generating item. True, no one comes to WDW just for the monorail alone, BUT, it is part of the entire magical package that we have all(???) come to love! Based upon this "revenue generating" concept of yours we should also remove all the buses and make everyone drive to the parks themselves because, after all, buses are "non-revenue generating items" too and the parking lots already exist at all of the parks. You know what else are also "non-revenue generating items???" Bathrooms outside the parks--- I mean think of the cost of water, supplies and upkeep if we get rid of the ones outside of the parks. You know the ones inside the parks also don't "generate revenue", so I guess that they're gone too! Of course, we could install quarter slots on all the stalls and make them "revenue generating items" PRESSLER! And all of those flowers all over WDW---I mean geesh the millions and millions spent on them every year--- it looks like FTD will have some extra flowers when WDW gets rid of them (at least they should no longer plant any more new flowers) because they too are "non-revenue generating items"!!! I'm sorry I didn't see the "big difference" between "non-revenue generating items" and "revenue generating items." Thanks for being here to clarify the "BIG difference"!

If the monorail isn't such a big help in transporting guests around WDW and an expansion is futile in helping move many guests around, then can you explain why D.C., Boston, L.A., etc., etc., etc. are all under major subway expansions and not simply adding more and more buses around their cities because they would be cheaper? The simple answer is that the Monorail is an effective means of mass transit and an expansion would mean expanding a more efficient, more environmentally friendly and more aesthetically pleasing means of mass transit at a cost much less than you claim.

By the way the Monorail IS a "revenue generating item" because it is part of the entire WDW magical package (just in case you hadn't yet realized that fact!).

 

[RobFL]

Originally posted by Monorail Lime
Actually there are several places the monorail goes over roads other than in the parking lots. It croses Vista Blvd. which goes from the MK Toll Plaza area to Fort Wilderness. It crosses Seven Seas Drive and World Drive up near the TTC. It crosses Epcot Center Drive just east of the World Drive interchange. These are all frequently traveled roads (especially Epcot Center Dr, the others are primarily for resort guests) and I've never heard of the monorail causing any distraction problems.

Just to clarify, i said entering those parking lots, which is essentially what you jsut described

All those roads lead to those parking areas.

I don't think they cause problems, but the sudden addition and in that area could be a mess. After a while, no one would care, but right away it would be a big issue.

Come to think of it, in my opinion, Beuna Vista is hell compared to most other Disney roads.

-Rob

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
Yes I have read all of it, and I buy NONE of it!

I suggest opening your eyes, and re-reading all that I have written on this topic in both this thread, and the other thread. You might find that

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
I beg to differ with your numbers! First of all, again, you neglected to factor those who would want to go to MGM from MK and vice versa

Actually, I did include that information. The gateway to the MK is the TTC.

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
and your numbers failed to calculate those on the resort loop that would also go to MGM via monorail.

This is true... however, I did so for a reason. Most guests staying at those resorts would probably end up taking a direct bus to the studios rather than the monorail. Why? Because it would be Direct... and Quicker. As it stands now, it could take a guest staying at the Grand Floridian up to 35 minutes to get to Epcot in the morning. Add an additional leg to the Studios, and that would increase the time to potentially 45 minutes. Plus, if the train then stops at all the Epcot Resorts as you suggest, it could take over an HOUR to get to the Studios. In my experience, I can tell you for a fact, the guests would much rather prefer the direct bus, which would only take 12 minutes from the Grand Floridian.

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
In addition, the last time I looked the Yacht & Beach Club, the Boardwalk, and the Swan & Dolphin are located in-between Epcot and MGM, thus, at least some sort of resort stop could be put in and they could chip in on the costs. By the way, this would also mean increased usage and increased occupancy at these resorts as well.

I'm not sure this would be as good of an idea as you claim. Now you're making the MK Resort people sit through more stops to go to the Studios. Plus, I'm guessing that on the same note, you're now going to make the Epcot Resort people take the monorail, transfer at the TTC, and then take the Express train to the MK.

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
Based upon this "revenue generating" concept of yours we should also remove all the buses and make everyone drive to the parks themselves because, after all, buses are "non-revenue generating items" too and the parking lots already exist at all of the parks.

You are not grasping my point. My point was that it would be a poor business decision to invest such a large amount of money into something that will not provide any form of return to the company. Our current bus system (in comparison) is relatively cheap to buy and operate.

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
If the monorail isn't such a big help in transporting guests around WDW and an expansion is futile in helping move many guests around, then can you explain why D.C., Boston, L.A., etc., etc., etc. are all under major subway expansions and not simply adding more and more buses around their cities because they would be cheaper? The simple answer is that the Monorail is an effective means of mass transit and an expansion would mean expanding a more efficient, more environmentally friendly and more aesthetically pleasing means of mass transit at a cost much less than you claim.

To answer the first part of your statement, you are correct, a fixed guideway system like a light rail, subway, or monorail system can be an efficient form of transportation. But let's examine how Disney would be different.

Have you ever really looked at the layout of all those designs? The systems run on "Lines"... which is just that... a line, that goes back and forth. And all these lines kinda meet in the center, at sort of a transfer hub of some sort. Traffic has its patterns, and heavy areas, however, is somewhat spread out.

Disney on the other hand... is very scattered. No straight lines here. In addition, at Disney... we have very distinct traffic patterns. In the morning 99.9% of our guests are travelling from 20 or so areas to the four parks. During the day, it gets quiet... And then at night, you have all those same people, going from 4 major areas, back to the 20 or so resorts. A very distinct traffic pattern that does not exist on a typical city mass transit system. (Yes, they have "Rush Hour," however people are still going from all points to all points.

As for adding more busses... Check out the Boston Silverline. It's a BRT system that uses hybrid diesel-electric articulated busses to operate above and below ground on dedicated routes. (http://www.allaboutsilverline.com/)

 

[mocfan]

Gee a lot can happen in a weekend away from the computer.

Mr. Promey -- Yes I acknowledge your swipe in an earlier post. Get over it.
Also the reason why I haven't put any suggestions on here is because I don't have an idea of how things like this happen. I learn so much from reading these posts.

Disney Fan -- Good job standing up for your opinion.

 

[MrPromey]

Originally posted by mocfan
Gee a lot can happen in a weekend away from the computer.

Mr. Promey -- Yes I acknowledge your swipe in an earlier post. Get over it.
Also the reason why I haven't put any suggestions on here is because I don't have an idea of how things like this happen. I learn so much from reading these posts.

Disney Fan -- Good job standing up for your opinion.

Oh, I'm way over it. I'm just tired of being labeled the bad guy because people don't want to except the limits of reality in regards to this issue. I'm tired of people suggesting that I'm trying to start trouble by directing them to the larger thread and saying that there is something wrong with me because they don't want to look at this thing from a realistic point of view. I still hold my original view about this thread and how it got started but that comment was meant to be directed at the person I was responding to - not you. My apologies.

 

[mocfan]

Originally posted by MrPromey


Oh, I'm way over it. I'm just tired of being labeled the bad guy because people don't want to except the limits of reality in regards to this issue. I'm tired of people suggesting that I'm trying to start trouble by directing them to the larger thread and saying that there is something wrong with me because they don't want to look at this thing from a realistic point of view. I still hold my original view about this thread and how it got started but that comment was meant to be directed at the person I was responding to - not you. My apologies.

No prob. If I could put my hand out to you for a handshake, I would.

 

[Cliff]

Yes I have read all of it, and I buy NONE of it! (other than the fact that you have worked for WDW transportation)

__________________________________________________

Wow dude, you are awesome!! I really had a good time reading these posts lately.

You REALLY want this new Monorail huh?....no matter what??

I certainly do get a kick out of your tenacity!!

Pretty good stuff here!

CT

"If we can dream it, than we can afford it...yes we can, yes we can"

 

[leebier]

Disneyfan-

I'm curious... how do you get around Disney property when you're there? Do you take the monorail every time it is an option? If you're staying at the GF and want to go to Epcot, do you wait at the GF station with everyone going to the MK until space opens up on a monorail, ride it all the way around to the TTC, and then wait in another line to get on an Epcot monorail taking a grand total of at least 45 minutes (if you're lucky) to get to Epcot? Or do you wait the (usually) 15 minutes or less to get on a bus that goes directly to Epcot?

And even if you do have that time and flexibility, what about all those people that do get on the bus? Are they idiots? Are they PRESSLER's?

Or perhaps they're just families who don't want to have to get up a half hour earlier in the morning just to get to a park. Or who don't wait to carry tired children through multiple lines so they can begin to wait in lines for the day. Or maybe in the evenings they just want to get back to the hotel and put the kids to sleep instead of taking over an hour to get back to their hotel.

They sure sound like evil, cost-cutting, close-minded people to me, don't they?

For that matter, I say let's not talk about expanding the monorails, let's expand ferry boat service! We can already take a boat from the TTC to MK, and the Friendship boats from the Swan/Dolphin to Epcot (Shame on those people who choose to walk that route because it's faster than the boats, they're PRESSLER's!); why not let us take a boat everywhere! Boats are magical. And they are environmentally clean too; they could be even cleaner if we paddled them ourselves. It could be a ride!

Don't you want to take a ferry boat everywhere on Disney property? It would be fun, and magical. Screw all those PRESSLER's out there who just want to get to the theme park. And those jerks with dinner reservations at another park? They should know better than to plan to go to multiple parks in one day! They should understand and appreciate a system that can't move enough people during the right times of the day to the places they want to go. It's all part of the MAGIC, right?

leebier
(with tounge planted firmly in cheek)