News Monorail Red in motion with guests on board and doors open

[mikejs78]

Yeah theoretically the company that has the experience should have a lower cost. They’ve already paid for the engineering. They also may know of small issues with the previous version that they may make slight changes to correct. Another company doing something all new has to pay for the engineering and also has greater risk since their design may be totally untested. So then if the competing company is offering a comparable price we have to assume they are making sacrifices somewhere.

That's not necessarily true. These monorails are almost 30 years old. I read an engineering paper once on how institutional knowledge, especially for old systems, is overrated. Companies don't maintain knowledge of engineering systems, people do. And I doubt many people who worked on WDW's current monorail system are still around...

 

[esskay]

Is it true these monorails haven't been replaced since 1989?

They started rolling out in 1989 yes, the 'newest' full car (Excluding those put together from parts of crashed cars) went online in 1991, so they'll have been in service for 30 years next year.

In comparison the Mark IV they replaced were in service from 1971 to 1989 (18 years).

Its worth noting as well that age wasn't the primary reason of the Mark IV being replaced - they were a fair bit smaller and Disney had to start adding an additional car to get a bit more capacity out of them. That being said the two youngest cars were only introduced in 1984 so were only used for 5 years! They did get a new life in Las Vegas and were in use up until 2004 (20 years).

In the grand scheme of things the monorails are not that old. They are just the oldest fleet Disney has had. If they were correctly maintained (and given real refurbishments, not a quick wipe over and some crappy new carpet on the walls) they'd have lasted another 10 years. But because Disney cut corners we're left with crappy old monorails that have lost their prestigious reliability score of 99.985%

Give it time, they'll be replaced. Till then expect more screwups and more incidents.

 

[esskay]

While I would be the first to be critical of the state of the monorails I don’t see anything too crazy here. I can’t speak to how the system operates with automation, but I can think of a few routine situations that could have resulted in this. Not normal, but certainly wouldn’t describe something like this as “another incident”.

I missed my stop a couple of times over the years, not sure how a computer does it but it doesn’t seem too serious an issue.

Agreed, I think things like this are to be expected to a degree. For all we know there was sensors going off due to weather or other factors. I dare say the automation 'upgrades' meant adding a ton of sensors for all kinds of data. One of them is bound to have a problem at some point.

 

[s8film40]

I 100% agree with you. I’m too critical of the monorail nowadays that I’ll jump on any issue I see lol. However, from what i’ve seen, the automation has been a downgrade to the system.

I wouldn’t call the automation a downgrade, but Disney’s specific installation of it is pretty pointless. Since they didn’t go with a fully automated system they don’t gain the efficiency you would normally get out of it and since they still put cast members in the cab they’re not saving any money which by the way is a ton of money that could have been diverted into maintenance. In typical Disney fashion they (Disney) thought they new best rather than having the people who do this as a business do it right.

That's not necessarily true. These monorails are almost 30 years old. I read an engineering paper once on how institutional knowledge, especially for old systems, is overrated. Companies don't maintain knowledge of engineering systems, people do. And I doubt many people who worked on WDW's current monorail system are still around...

This in itself is not indicative of an aging or poorly maintained system. Now if this is happening repeatedly throughout the day then sure it’s a real problem. As a one off thing I can think back to specific driver who did things like this which no mechanical problems at all. There were before automation several malfunctions that could cause a train to stop like that. Perhaps they put it back into the manual mode they have now and the drivers with no real ongoing practice just aren’t good at parking trains?

 

[msg7]

I wouldn’t call the automation a downgrade, but Disney’s specific installation of it is pretty pointless. Since they didn’t go with a fully automated system they don’t gain the efficiency you would normally get out of it and since they still put cast members in the cab they’re not saving any money which by the way is a ton of money that could have been diverted into maintenance. In typical Disney fashion they (Disney) thought they new best rather than having the people who do this as a business do it right.

Ever since the automation was implemented, there has been a significantly larger amount of downtime. I read an interview with a monorail pilot on Reddit I believe and he said that automation has lead to a significant amount of door problems also (similar to why the door on monorail red didn't close at the station.) But yes, I agree with you. Disney isn't using it in an efficient manner.

 

[s8film40]

Ever since the automation was implemented, there has been a significantly larger amount of downtime. I read an interview with a monorail pilot on Reddit I believe and he said that automation has lead to a significant amount of door problems also (similar to why the door on monorail red didn't close at the station.) But yes, I agree with you. Disney isn't using it in an efficient manner.

From my understanding the doors should have nothing to do at all with automation. The door system was left completely separate since Disney wasn't interested in fully automating the system. I believe the CM's still open and close the doors like normal and obviously the mechanics of them weren't changed. The door design has always been a big issue. It was made to be far more complicated simply to maintain the flush aesthetic of the train. I admire George McGinnis for wanting to keep that, but the long term effect has proven to not be worth it.

 

[msg7]

From my understanding the doors should have nothing to do at all with automation. The door system was left completely separate since Disney wasn't interested in fully automating the system. I believe the CM's still open and close the doors like normal and obviously the mechanics of them weren't changed. The door design has always been a big issue. It was made to be far more complicated simply to maintain the flush aesthetic of the train. I admire George McGinnis for wanting to keep that, but the long term effect has proven to not be worth it.

The pilots used to press 2 buttons on a control panel located outside the cab door. Now, door operation is wireless. They press a button on the automation control panel on the platform. A flush door design would be much better. Even though most people remember the sound of the Mark IV doors being slammed shut, I find the sound of the automatic doors with the faint sound of the Please Stand Clear of the Doors spiel in the background echoing through the Contemporary to be nostalgic. Weird things like that make me excited to go back lol

 

[s8film40]

The pilots used to press 2 buttons on a control panel located outside the cab door. Now, door operation is wireless. They press a button on the automation control panel on the platform. A flush door design would be much better. Even though most people remember the sound of the Mark IV doors being slammed shut, I find the sound of the automatic doors with the faint sound of the Please Stand Clear of the Doors spiel in the background echoing through the Contemporary to be nostalgic. Weird things like that make me excited to go back lol

I would think that that still only effects triggering the door open and close, the mechanism is still all the same and that's where the big issue is.

Just to be clear when I say flush I mean that the door is flush with the exterior of the train when it's closed. Bombardier wanted a sliding door which means it would have had to stick out slightly and that portion of the train be recessed similar to what you see in the Innovia 200's. This change created an elaborate system that latches the door by pushing it up, so to open the door, it is released and lowered then an arm pulls the door out and around (what you see today with the Mark VI's). Obviously this is far more complicated than a door simply sliding. Beyond that it meant the platform had to be lower than the train to allow the door to drop when unlatched. That of course created the need for wheelchair ramps. Later it made it difficult to add automatic station gates since they have to be set back far enough to allow the doors to swing out.

 

[jbolen2]

They started rolling out in 1989 yes, the 'newest' full car (Excluding those put together from parts of crashed cars) went online in 1991, so they'll have been in service for 30 years next year.

In comparison the Mark IV they replaced were in service from 1971 to 1989 (18 years).

Its worth noting as well that age wasn't the primary reason of the Mark IV being replaced - they were a fair bit smaller and Disney had to start adding an additional car to get a bit more capacity out of them. That being said the two youngest cars were only introduced in 1984 so were only used for 5 years! They did get a new life in Las Vegas and were in use up until 2004 (20 years).

In the grand scheme of things the monorails are not that old. They are just the oldest fleet Disney has had. If they were correctly maintained (and given real refurbishments, not a quick wipe over and some crappy new carpet on the walls) they'd have lasted another 10 years. But because Disney cut corners we're left with crappy old monorails that have lost their prestigious reliability score of 99.985%

Give it time, they'll be replaced. Till then expect more screwups and more incidents.

On a side note what happened to the trains that didn’t go to Vegas and then what happened to the ones that did go to Vegas for 5 years before being replaced?

 

[s8film40]

On a side note what happened to the trains that didn’t go to Vegas and then what happened to the ones that did go to Vegas for 5 years before being replaced?

Most of the trains that didn't go to Vegas were scrapped or buried supposedly, with the exception of Red and Silver which remained in a warehouse in Kissimmee until they decided to get rid of them (I think it was late 2000's). Car one of Red was sold on eBay, the other 3 consoles and some doors were saved and the remainder scrapped. Lime and Coral at Vegas were removed and sat out in the dessert for a while. I believe one train was purchased by someone who wants to restore it or do something with it, but the metal frame underneath was scrapped so all he really has is the fiberglass body. The other was last seen being crushed in a monster truck show.

Edit:

 

[Creathir]

Most of the trains that didn't go to Vegas were scrapped or buried supposedly, with the exception of Red and Silver which remained in a warehouse in Kissimmee until they decided to get rid of them (I think it was late 2000's). Car one of Red was sold on eBay, the other 3 consoles and some doors were saved and the remainder scrapped. Lime and Coral at Vegas were removed and sat out in the dessert for a while. I believe one train was purchased by someone who wants to restore it or do something with it, but the metal frame underneath was scrapped so all he really has is the fiberglass body. The other was last seen being crushed in a monster truck show.

Edit:

Why... my gosh... what an utter waste...

 

[GCTales]

Another incident... Looks like it was a glitch from the computer system for the automation this time. I feel like we may see a lawsuit against Thales, the company who automated the monorail, very soon.

EDIT: Video-

Video has been taken down

 

[DznyRktekt]

Why... my gosh... what an utter waste...

Agreed. Gross.

 

[ford91exploder]

I 100% agree with you. I’m too critical of the monorail nowadays that I’ll jump on any issue I see lol. However, from what i’ve seen, the automation has been a downgrade to the system.

That was by design.

 

[peter11435]

That was by design.

No

 

[jpeden]

No

Now you know good and well Ford is going to say it was so the system fails and Disney can publicly say they have no choice but to scrap the system because they can’t make the required safety automation work, thus reducing operating margin and increasing profits for stock buy-backs.

 

[peter11435]

Now you know good and well Ford is going to say it was so the system fails and Disney can publicly say they have no choice but to scrap the system because they can’t make the required safety automation work, thus reducing operating margin and increasing profits for stock buy-backs.

Yep that is exactly what he’s going to say.

And as usual he would be wrong.

 

[s8film40]

Now you know good and well Ford is going to say it was so the system fails and Disney can publicly say they have no choice but to scrap the system because they can’t make the required safety automation work, thus reducing operating margin and increasing profits for stock buy-backs.

Haha, they’re not that smart.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

With a lull in the monorail news, now might be a good time for you folks to check out a series the New York Times did on the decline of the NYC Subway system. From deferred critical maintenance and misappropriated transit dollars to well connected contractors and unions driving up construction costs, compared to other major metro projects around the world. It’s about an hour plus read, but it’s an incredibly well researched and a fascinating look at how once great systems and organizations fail-hint, hint. It was recently capped off with a strong argument for substantial investment in the subway to keep the city vibrant and exceptional. Plus the Times just posted a short video with all the key points from the series, so you really don’t have an excuse to not check it out.

Part 1: A Litany of Errors (Politicans)
Part 2: Neglecting the Basics (Maintenance)
Part 3: Excessive Costs (Contractors, Consultants and Unions)

The Case for the Subway

 

[mikejs78]

This in itself is not indicative of an aging or poorly maintained system. Now if this is happening repeatedly throughout the day then sure it’s a real problem. As a one off thing I can think back to specific driver who did things like this which no mechanical problems at all. There were before automation several malfunctions that could cause a train to stop like that. Perhaps they put it back into the manual mode they have now and the drivers with no real ongoing practice just aren’t good at parking trains?

I wasn't actually referring to engineering knowledge at Disney - they should have kept up that knowledge over the years. When you're continually maintaining a system, that knowledge needs to be passed down and can be passed down.

I'm talking more about Bombardier. Just because they developed the current monorail, doesn't mean that after 30 years they still have that institutional knowledge to make it more cost effective and reliable - in fact it's more likely they don't, unless their current design are pretty close to the Disney design.