News Monorail Red in motion with guests on board and doors open

[lazyboy97o]

I hope @Rteez is correct.

I don't remember hearing a rumor from him before and usually it comes from a few other sources and none of them have said a peep.

Without further confirmation my mind is stuck on: Disney will keep doing more of the same and the solution for this latest thing will be signs, which they've already implemented, and having someone look at the door/process. I just don't see them doing anything more with it.

New trains don’t magically fix the cultural problems that have allowed the monorails to deteriorate.

 

[Brad Bishop]

New trains don’t magically fix the cultural problems that have allowed the monorails to deteriorate.

Very true. I could see the train requirements:
- Must have a lifespan of 30 years... -thinking ahead, there, Disney- ... So we can run them for 50. DOH!

 

[jpeden]

Going through the list of possible partners.

Named
Siemens (Shanghai Maglev)
Bombardier (Legacy WED-Alweg System)

Not Named
Alstom
Hitatchi Monorail (Tokyo Disney Resort Line)
Intamin (Moscow and Shenzhen)
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries

Let's see, we know some of these are out based on what's been said:

Siemens (just eneded park sponsorship - can't see this coming back in this way)
Bombardier
Intamin

That leaves:
Alstom
Hitachi
Mitsubishi

The only one on that list with direct experience with Disney monorails would be Hitachi - I wouldn't be surprised if it's them.

 

[larryz]

Let's see, we know some of these are out based on what's been said:

Siemens (just eneded park sponsorship - can't see this coming back in this way)
Bombardier
Intamin

That leaves:
Alstom
Hitachi
Mitsubishi

The only one on that list with direct experience with Disney monorails would be Hitachi - I wouldn't be surprised if it's them.

I had a rice cooker by Hitachi that lasted about 3 years... I really expected a longer lifespan out of it. It's just a rice cooker, not a monorail.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Let's see, we know some of these are out based on what's been said:

Siemens (just eneded park sponsorship - can't see this coming back in this way)
Bombardier
Intamin

That leaves:
Alstom
Hitachi
Mitsubishi

The only one on that list with direct experience with Disney monorails would be Hitachi - I wouldn't be surprised if it's them.

Big problem with Hitatchi is that they, and by extension TDR monorail, have a different beam and train standard than the legacy system.

 

[jpeden]

Big problem with Hitatchi is that they, and by extension TDR monorail, have a different beam and train standard than the legacy system.

True, but as stated I'd imagine whatever this is is going to be a custom build so it fits the current beam and the Contemporary clearances - they aren't modifying the entire line's beams regardless of who they go with.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a Monorail designed by WDI, and then built by someone else like Hitachi if Bombardier is really out of the picture as stated before.

@Rteetz I'm assuming there aren't any other details you're willing to spill on this meeting?

 

[Rteetz]

True, but as stated I'd imagine whatever this is is going to be a custom build so it fits the current beam and the Contemporary clearances - they aren't modifying the entire line's beams regardless of who they go with.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a Monorail designed by WDI, and then built by someone else like Hitachi if Bombardier is really out of the picture as stated before.

@Rteetz I'm assuming there aren't any other details you're willing to spill on this meeting?

Not at the moment.

 

[jpeden]

Not at the moment.

Completely understandable - we all thank you for what you can share when it can be shared!

 

[msg7]

True, but as stated I'd imagine whatever this is is going to be a custom build so it fits the current beam and the Contemporary clearances - they aren't modifying the entire line's beams regardless of who they go with.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a Monorail designed by WDI, and then built by someone else like Hitachi if Bombardier is really out of the picture as stated before.

@Rteetz I'm assuming there aren't any other details you're willing to spill on this meeting?

I really do think the monorail will be designed by WDI and built by an external major transport company. No "shelf models" like the Innovias, e.t.c. Here's Why:

*Note: Bob Gurr lead the design process for most monorails, if not all (not sure about the Mark VII.)
EDIT: According to @s8film40, George McGinnins was in charge of designing the Mark V & VI.

Mark I Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (Alweg Design)
Contractor: WDI

Mark II Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (Alweg Design; Upgraded Design of the Mark I)
Contractor: WDI

Mark III Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (Alweg Design;Upgraded Design of the Mark II)
Contractor: WDI

Mark IV Monorail- WDW- Design: WDI
Contractor: Martin Marietta

Mark V Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (Based on the WDW Mark IV; MK III Chassis)
Contractor: Ride & Show Engineering, Inc.

Mark VI Monorail- WDW- Design: WDI
Contractor: Bombardier

Mark VII Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (MK III Chassis)
Contractor: Dynamic Structures

As you can see, WDI designed all the monorails from scratch. There definitely is a pattern and I wouldn't be surprised if Disney kept it going. That being said, monorails were not as popular as they are now back in the 20th century with a smaller amount of manufactures and models of trains. Let me know your thoughts.

 

[s8film40]

Let's see, we know some of these are out based on what's been said:

Siemens (just eneded park sponsorship - can't see this coming back in this way)
Bombardier
Intamin

That leaves:
Alstom
Hitachi
Mitsubishi

The only one on that list with direct experience with Disney monorails would be Hitachi - I wouldn't be surprised if it's them.

I really have a hard time seeing these companies building trains for a competitors system. I suppose if there’s money some may be willing to consider it.

I really do think the monorail will be designed by WDI and built by an external major transport company. No "shelf models" like the Innovias, e.t.c. Here's Why:

*Note: Bob Gurr lead the design process for most monorails, if not all (not sure about the Mark VII.)

Mark I Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI
Contractor: Alweg

Mark II Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (Upgraded Design of the Mark I)
Contractor: Alweg

Mark III Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (Upgraded Design of the Mark II)
Contractor: Alweg

Mark IV Monorail- WDW- Design: WDI
Contractor: Martin Marietta

Mark V Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (Based on the WDW Mark IV; MK III Chassis)
Contractor: Ride & Show Engineering, Inc.

Mark VI Monorail- WDW- Design: WDI
Contractor: Bombardier

Mark VII Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (MK III Chassis)
Contractor: Dynamic Structures

As you can see, WDI designed all the monorails from scratch. There definitely is a pattern and I wouldn't be surprised if Disney kept it going. That being said, monorails were not as popular as they are now back in the 20th century with a smaller amount of manufactures and models of trains. Let me know your thoughts.

Bob Gurr was Mark I-IV, George McGinnins was Mark V & VI. I didn’t really follow the Mark VII as it was being done too much, but I seem to remember hearing it was an all new chassis. They took one of the old ones apart to look at it and sort of reverse engineer it I think. It’s also worth mentioning while Innovia is “off the shelf” it is the current evolution of the Disney Mark IV & VI design. So Bombardier IS the Disney design.

Also I really don’t think any of this is happening, but it’s fun to discuss.

 

[jpeden]

I really have a hard time seeing these companies building trains for a competitors system. I suppose if there’s money some may be willing to consider it.

Bob Gurr was Mark I-IV, George McGinnins was Mark V & VI. I didn’t really follow the Mark VII as it was being done too much, but I seem to remember hearing it was an all new chassis. They took one of the old ones apart to look at it and sort of reverse engineer it I think. It’s also worth mentioning while Innovia is “off the shelf” it is the current evolution of the Disney Mark IV & VI design. So Bombardier IS the Disney design.

Also I really don’t think any of this is happening, but it’s fun to discuss.

It’s not really a comptetitor’s system though. It’s a private entertainment comapny’s Guest transport system. Considering it would be a full redesign of the trains, I could see it happening easily, and it would be a huge PR thing for that company.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I really do think the monorail will be designed by WDI and built by an external major transport company. No "shelf models" like the Innovias, e.t.c. Here's Why:

*Note: Bob Gurr lead the design process for most monorails, if not all (not sure about the Mark VII.)

Mark I Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI
Contractor: Alweg

Mark II Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (Upgraded Design of the Mark I)
Contractor: Alweg

Mark III Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (Upgraded Design of the Mark II)
Contractor: Alweg

Mark IV Monorail- WDW- Design: WDI
Contractor: Martin Marietta

Mark V Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (Based on the WDW Mark IV; MK III Chassis)
Contractor: Ride & Show Engineering, Inc.

Mark VI Monorail- WDW- Design: WDI
Contractor: Bombardier

Mark VII Monorail- Disneyland- Design: WDI (MK III Chassis)
Contractor: Dynamic Structures

As you can see, WDI designed all the monorails from scratch. There definitely is a pattern and I wouldn't be surprised if Disney kept it going. That being said, monorails were not as popular as they are now back in the 20th century with a smaller amount of manufactures and models of trains. Let me know your thoughts.

What you skip over is the sale of WED Transportation Systems to Bombardier.

The Mark I was not built by ALWEG. They were built by Disney using ALWEG designs modified by Disney to be smaller. Gurr was given the drawings of the ALWEG prototype and worked from them. The Mark VII also reused the Mark V bodies.

Bob Gurr was Mark I-IV, George McGinnins was Mark V & VI. I didn’t really follow the Mark VII as it was being done too much, but I seem to remember hearing it was an all new chassis. They took one of the old ones apart to look at it and sort of reverse engineer it I think. It’s also worth mentioning while Innovia is “off the shelf” it is the current evolution of the Disney Mark IV & VI design. So Bombardier IS the Disney design.

Also I really don’t think any of this is happening, but it’s fun to discuss.

The Mark III chasis was reused for the Mark VII. A monorail died so they could figure out where everything went and the rebuilt trains still couldn’t navigate the track.

 

[msg7]

The Mark I was not built by ALWEG. They were built by Disney using ALWEG designs modified by Disney to be smaller. Gurr was given the drawings of the ALWEG prototype and worked from them.

Thanks for clearing this up. This was another bit of info that was tricky to decipher.

 

[s8film40]

It’s not really a comptetitor’s system though. It’s a private entertainment comapny’s Guest transport system. Considering it would be a full redesign of the trains, I could see it happening easily, and it would be a huge PR thing for that company.

Disney’s system is the system that Bombardier actively markets. So yes they would be building a train designed to work on the system Bombardier sells. No other manufacturer has the exact same system. Honestly this to me is the reason I have a hard time seeing this happen. Hitachi for example markets their system so it seems to me designing something like this would potentially make them look bad. It’s kind of like going to Coke and saying hey could you make us some Pepsi. It’s in a weird sort of way like admitting your own product isn’t as good.

 

[jpeden]

Disney’s system is the system that Bombardier actively markets. So yes they would be building a train designed to work on the system Bombardier sells. No other manufacturer has the exact same system. Honestly this to me is the reason I have a hard time seeing this happen. Hitachi for example markets their system so it seems to me designing something like this would potentially make them look bad. It’s kind of like going to Coke and saying hey could you make us some Pepsi. It’s in a weird sort of way like admitting your own product isn’t as good.

I get that, but if there truly was a falling out with Bombardier and Disney doesn't want to go back to them, I'm sure any company that makes a monorail would jump at the chance to custom build something that works with what is no doubt one of if not the most iconic, well know, and highly trafficked monorail system in the world. Plus, when you are pitching ideas to major cities and the like, it doesn't hurt to say "Oh yeah, we were in charge of the refurb and re-design of the Walt Disney World Monorail system." So, I think there's a chance that if it happens, it' isn't Bombardier.

 

[Rteetz]

Disney’s system is the system that Bombardier actively markets. So yes they would be building a train designed to work on the system Bombardier sells. No other manufacturer has the exact same system. Honestly this to me is the reason I have a hard time seeing this happen. Hitachi for example markets their system so it seems to me designing something like this would potentially make them look bad. It’s kind of like going to Coke and saying hey could you make us some Pepsi. It’s in a weird sort of way like admitting your own product isn’t as good.

I am not in these meetings or anything but based on what I know it doesn't seem like Bombardier has any involvement and that doesn't seem to bother Disney right now. Obviously meetings don't mean new trains are for sure happening but I feel if they are actively meeting with companies these companies have some interest knowing this isn't their system. I also don't think the coke/pepsi analogy works. Disney would likely design the new trains and then which ever company they partner with builds them. Which ever company that does build them gets the publicity of saying hey we built the WDW monorails and they are used by thousands every day.

 

[s8film40]

I am not in these meetings or anything but based on what I know it doesn't seem like Bombardier has any involvement and that doesn't seem to bother Disney right now. Obviously meetings don't mean new trains are for sure happening but I feel if they are actively meeting with companies these companies have some interest knowing this isn't their system. I also don't think the coke/pepsi analogy works. Disney would likely design the new trains and then which ever company they partner with builds them. Which ever company that does build them gets the publicity of saying hey we built the WDW monorails and they are used by thousands every day.

Well without getting in to all the technicalities if I were Bombardier and this did happen I would certainly be spinning this as a positive. Something like our train design is so great ___ company tried to recreate it. I would probably also look into a patent infringement lawsuit against whatever company ended up getting the deal. Certainly far more frivolous patent lawsuits have been won.

Either way this scenario would not be good for Disney if they design a whole new train from the ground up. A lot is learned and corrected in the first design of a train like this. The Mark I & II had serious design flaws that led to them scrapping those train and building all new trains. Similarly the Mark IV’s had issues that were addressed in the Mark VI. So if they go the route of starting over rather than reverse engineering and copying Bombardier’s design they’ll likely just end up with trains not as good as what they already have.

I still say the best option is to just have the existing trains completely refurbished.

 

[Rteetz]

Well without getting in to all the technicalities if I were Bombardier and this did happen I would certainly be spinning this as a positive. Something like our train design is so great ___ company tried to recreate it. I would probably also look into a patent infringement lawsuit against whatever company ended up getting the deal. Certainly far more frivolous patent lawsuits have been won.

Either way this scenario would not be good for Disney if they design a whole new train from the ground up. A lot is learned and corrected in the first design of a train like this. The Mark I & II had serious design flaws that led to them scrapping those train and building all new trains. Similarly the Mark IV’s had issues that were addressed in the Mark VI. So if they go the route of starting over rather than reverse engineering and copying Bombardier’s design they’ll likely just end up with trains not as good as what they already have.

I still say the best option is to just have the existing trains completely refurbished.

If Disney is working with other companies I would find it hard to believe they haven't looked into the legal aspects of working with other companies. I understand what you are saying but I am telling you there have been meetings with other companies and Bombardier has not been involved. Bombardier surely could come back into play but right now they aren't in talks and it doesn't sound like they will be.

 

[s8film40]

If Disney is working with other companies I would find it hard to believe they haven't looked into the legal aspects of working with other companies. I understand what you are saying but I am telling you there have been meetings with other companies and Bombardier has not been involved. Bombardier surely could come back into play but right now they aren't in talks and it doesn't sound like they will be.

Well if they’re in preliminary talks they may be waiting to look into those aspects later. Of course companies every day weigh their risks and go ahead even if they may clearly end up with a lawsuit later. This is especially true if it’s a small company trying to get into the business it could even be worth taking a loss. I just don’t see someone like Hitachi or one of the other major companies touching this. It could be a mess, it’s not likely something they would market to anyone else so doesn’t help their portfolio and Disney is well known for not treating their contractors well. So to me all in all if this happens I guess I imagine the company taking this on being a little more desperate. That to me is not a good thing for the final product. Or perhaps it’s all really a negotiating tactic to use to later take other competing offers to Bombardier.

 

[msg7]

If Hitachi was chosen to build new monorails, (just a thought) would they change the design/framework from their current monorails? I don't know if it's just me but Hitachi's monorails seem a little bit too... "boxy." They seem neither futuristic nor sleek to me.