Monorail Expansion?

[Invero]

Re: Re: monorails

Okay folks... I'm gonna try and do my best in this... but my cable modem went out, and I'm on dialup, paying by the minute... so I can't write as much as I'd like.

Originally posted by Eeyore
I'd also like to thank Tyler for all his wonderful information that he has provided not only in this thread but in other as well! Thanks!!

It's been my pleasure

Originally posted by dreamer
Buses are a cop out. A substitute for imagination. Duct tape! They are Chicago, New York City, Peoria. They take you to school in the morning when you'd rather be home.

Well... You could say the same for the monorail, too. Monorails aren't limited to Disney... they're all over the place. They're in Las Vegas, Seattle, Japan... all over the world. Just because something is "common place" doesn't mean it's not any good.

Originally posted by leebier
I don't think that any of us here are bus-lovers

Granted, I'm probably the only one... LOL... but I love busses... They're one of my favorite forms of transportation. (Monorails are a close second)

Originally posted by plpeters70
Though I have seen a lot of interesting observations on these boards as to why the monorails "as they exist today" could not handle all of WDW's transportation woes, I'm still not convinced that Disney couldn't come up with a very well-designed and efficient design for a monorail system with minimal transfers that could handle the problems.

It all comes down to two words -- "Fixed Guideway"... Fixed guideways are great for inner city transit systems that travel in straight lines from one central location. However, WDW, we need something flexible, that can meet our demands. A fixed guideway system by definition, can't do that.

Originally posted by prberk
I know that busses are "controllable," and they may even cost less to operate than the monorail (but I doubt it over the years).
[...]
One night I left the MK at closing time on the Disney bus, and was stuck in traffic for over an hour, getting to the Dixie Landings (Port Orleans, Riverside, now), while I watched monorails whisk by every few minutes. Had I stayed at the Poly, I would have been able to watch the traffic jams (or gaze at the lagoon) from the comfort of my own room within minutes of leaving the park...

Well, actually... that's not always true. See, the Resort Monorail also gets quite busy. And if a Resort Monorail breaks down... it shuts down the Resort beam... *AND* the Express beam. (The switches criss-cross)

One situation I will tell you of... I was working the Night of Joy last year. The party ended at 1:00am. At about 12:45, Monorail Orange decided to break down. The line up was Orange, Silver, Lime, and Blue... Orange was at TTC, with maintenance working on it, Silver was holding just outside the Polynesian at 145, I was holding by the Wedding Pavillion at 125. I beleive Blue was at the MK. We held in those positions for an HOUR. Both Silver and myself both had jam packed trains. I didn't get to unload my train until about 2:00am. I felt so bad for those guests on my train... I kept speiling to them, apologising, and whatnot... luckily the guests in my front cab were really nice. When we got to the TTC, I kinda hid out in my cab because I knew someone would yell at me about it... not that I blame them or anything, I'd be frustrated to.

But at any rate... my point being, you can get stuck in monorails too. And given the choice of a bus or a monorail, I'd take the bus.

Originally posted by leebier
Additionally, lets say you have the last stop before the TTC, if a large group boarded the monorail at the starting station, it's quite possible for a monorail to arrive that is too full to let you on, causing you to wait for the next to arrive, which might also be too full to let you on. In theory, you could have to wait for an entire resort to empty out before you can get on (an extreme example, i know, but you get my point).

Actually, it's not extreme... it happens EVERY DAY. Guests at the Contemporary fill all the seats in the monorail. Guests at the Polynesian fill up all the standing room in the monorail. And then the guests at the Grand Floridian often times can't all get onto the train. This happens all the time. Now... with a flexible transportation system... such as a bus... the bus gets dispatched to Conteporary, and then fills up at the Polynesian. The next bus will either start at the Polynesian to get any remainders, or start at the Grand Floridian, to ensure everyone gets proper service.

Originally posted by leebier
There are lots of things to love about monorails, but a fixed track system does not work well with the ebbs and tides of people at WDW.

I couldn't say it better myself.

Originally posted by DogsRule!
We'll just have to wait until XS Teleportation becomes more reliable and we can simply beem ourselves instantaneously from one park to another without experiencing what Skippy went through...

YEAH!! I like that idea!!!

Originally posted by plpeters70
All of those points you've made are definitely vaild - and they've been mentioned quite a few times on this thread, but how about coming up with some solutions to these problems?? Are we all so sure that there isn't any way that monorails could be made to work at WDW??

Unfortunetly, finding the problem is a lot easier than finding a solution for it. Currently, Disney's solution is Busses. I know y'all don't like that one, but for the current time, it's the most efficient way to go. Disney is very unique, in that its guest traffic flow works very different than any other transportation system. Creates quite a complicated problem.

It's not so much that "Monorails" can't work for us at WDW... it's more that a "Fixed Guideway System" can't work. If someone could develop a PRT system based on a monorail type vehicle... then great, I'd be all for it. Of course, I'd need some serious data to make sure that the PRT could handle the crowds.

Originally posted by dmspilot00
How hard is it for a monorail to switch tracks? How expensive are switch beams? How long does the process take?

It's not really hard, per se... but there is a lot involved. And it takes a long time. As it stands now, Disney only switches trains for operational necessity. Guests are not allowed on the trains as they travel through the switches. It can take anywhere from 7-20 minutes to fully complete the switch, with the average being 14 minutes. During the switch, both beams are tied up, and monorail traffic comes to a halt all the way around. Once all the trains are in position, and the switching train is clear of guests, central gives the word to shop. Shop kills power, then moves the switch. Once the switch is lined up, and locked down, they'll bring up power. Once power is brought up, central then tells the train to go through the switch. Depending on the switch, the train is limited to 3mph or 15mph (Pivot vs Beam Replacement) Once the train is through the switch, and clear... they kill power once again, move the switch, line up, lock down, and bring back power. It's not over yet. Now, the train that just switched beams has to perform safety checks on the anti-collision system with the other trains. Another time consuming process.

As far as price goes... Switches are *VERY* expensive.

Originally posted by turkey leg boy
A bus can have another take it's place very easily. No one besides that bus is down and you won't have a noticable increase in waiting times.

With the new Flex Dispatch, when a bus goes down, the guests don't get affected. If for some reason, a bus breaks down on the side of the road... the guests get transferred to another bus as quickly as possible. I've had this happen to me twice, and both times the guests were on thier way within 5-10 minutes tops.

Originally posted by plpeters70
Then they need a swift and efficient system designed to remove the "dead" monorail as quickly as possible from the tracks. I have confidence that they could come up with something.

If a monorail becomes inoperable, and stuck on a beam, they have a diesel powered tow-tractor come out and tow the train. This process often times is quite time consuming. If the affected train is on Resort beam, or Epcot beam, the Express beam goes down as well, because of the crossover. This can mean monorail service could go down for 45-60 minutes, if not more.

Originally posted by leebier
Those problems are the definition of a fixed track system, and they are the befefits of such a system for a major metropolitan area. They work great when traffic is approximately equal between any two points in the system, and people have ample time to learn the system and where they need to switch trains. Disney needs an extremely simple system because of the large number of non English speakers and because of the large number of suptid/careless people (look at those who can't even board the right bus, or handle the switch to Epcot on monorails) or people who don't want to learn a whole system for their weeklong vacation. Disney's traffic is also not equally distrubted between points and so the system needs flexibility. Fixed tracks are not flexible by DESIGN.

Fixed tracks and monorails are great. But they aren't what Disney needs now.

Once again, you seem to know exactly what I am talking about. You wouldn't happen to work in the transportation industry, would you? But yes, you are right on the nose with everything that you say... Especially the need for a simple system. If there is one thing that people do not do while on vacation, is Read The Signs. (We often joke that the RTS bus stands for Read The Sign) I can't tell you how many times I pull in with MAGIC KINGDOM on my bright orange destination sign, and people ask, "Do you go to Downtown Disney?"

Originally posted by leebier
We need a new system, one that is futuristic in aesthetic and in technology, just as the monorail once was. As soon as someone develops a technology that can be adapted for Disney's purposes, they need to jump on it. Shame on them if they dont.

Fitting the monorail's square peg into Disney's round hole isn't the answer though, no matter how elaborate of a "fix" we can dream up.

Well... once I'm finished with college... my hope is to become a Transportation Imagineer, and design it for ya!

 

[jaylenofan86]

We need mandatory IQ tests when guests enter WDW! If you fail it, you won't be allowed into WDW! That will slove the stupid/careless people issue!

 

[leebier]

Not in the transport industry

I am a college student, Marketing and Econ double major
(see, not ALL of us marketing guys are evil)...

But I catch on quick, and have read this thread (and a couple similar ones) very carefully. Trust me, I'm the last person I'd ever expect to shoot down expanding the monorails.

I do have to say, talking in here about this stuff has made me more interested in logistics, I'm gonna check out and see if my school has some intro classes, because this honestly facinates me.

I know that the "mechanincs" of amusement parks have always interested me. My parents used to think i wasn't enjoying myself because i would stare at the ride operator's control panels and try to figure out how everything worked instead of just enjoying the ride .

After I graduate, I'd love to work in marketing or somewhere in the park planning (i guess that fits under Imagineering, i dunno). Know any people I should contact?

Ok, sorry, off thread a bit there.

Back on thread... I know there were a couple links earlier in the thread somewhere, but anyone have any good info on PRT? i'm curious to read about and subsequently bore my friends about it

Lee

 

[jmarc63]

Tyler... I got to tell you I must have either been lucky or missed there breakdowns. On my 8 trips in the 70s and my last one in 93 I never heard or was on the Monorail at a time that they had a problem where the Monorail train broke down. I would ride a few circuts at one time to take pics maybe this is something happening more recently or as I said before I missed the times that a breakdown occured. The times I remember "holding " while riding was waiting for a Monorail to clear a section so the saftey system would allow our train to move forward. and nearly every time this ocured we were up front with the pilot and gave us more time to chat and hear the reason why we were stopping. and listening to the radio and hearing control say The holding was because they were having a Loading problem with a guest(s)

 

[Just A Big Kid]

Actually.. i was just down there the last week of June and while i was there, there were 2 instances where the monorails broke down in the stations.. When this happens they have a special towing-thingy(sorry for my phrasing)that comes down the rail to tow it back to the shop. It was the monorail purple that had to get towed when i saw it... i was in awe..LOL Plus one other thing i found out that i found cool was there are still 2 of the Mark IV monorails in storage in what the castmembers call the "boneyard". I was sooooooo tempted to go look but i would have had to go back in where the employees go in and i didn't want to get busted so i changed my mind... Ok.. i'm done rambling now..LOL

 

[jmarc63]

Originally posted by Just A Big Kid
Actually.. i was just down there the last week of June and while i was there, there were 2 instances where the monorails broke down in the stations.. When this happens they have a special towing-thingy(sorry for my phrasing)that comes down the rail to tow it back to the shop. It was the monorail purple that had to get towed when i saw it... i was in awe..LOL Plus one other thing i found out that i found cool was there are still 2 of the Mark IV monorails in storage in what the castmembers call the "boneyard". I was sooooooo tempted to go look but i would have had to go back in where the employees go in and i didn't want to get busted so i changed my mind... Ok.. i'm done rambling now..LOL

here is a pic i found

 

[garyhoov]

There is a lot of talk about the problems with a fixed rail system if one of the trains "breaks down". I think the answer to that particular issue is that any system that will be considered needs to be reliable. I am absolutely confident that with the information, materials and technology that are available in 2002 it is possible to create a system that will not "break down" on any regular basis.

I once owned a Plymouth Neon. For six years, up until the day I traded it in, it started every day and got me to and from work without once "breaking down". I didn't have to inspect it every night. I didn't have maintenance crews devoted to it, I just expected it to do its job.

Obviously a Disney Transportation System will experience much more use and abuse than my Neon, and it will be based on technology that will not be manufactured in the same numbers as a consumer automobile, but I still think we can ask for a reasonable level of reliability.

We simply need to expect that design and maintenance of any proposed system will be adequate to prevent anything but extremely rare "break downs".

In my opinion (not to imply my opinion is worth a whole heck of a lot), if the current Monorail system can not promise this, then it needs to be redesigned or scrapped based on this issue (forget all the other concerns).

 

[bamboo7]

Originally posted by bamboo7


i just typed up a huge reply to that message, and another link opened in this window before i submitted it. argh. i don't feel like re-typing it all, so i'll compress it all into one sentance.

i think you are being too idealistic.

oops. sorry dreamer. i wasn't paying attention and i repeated myself. ignore me.

 

[mlnance]

This might be a dumb question, but what are the differences between the current monorails at WDW compared to the old Mark IV's that are in the "Boneyard." That is a cool pic of the boneyard.

I bet it seems weird standing inside one of those old monorail cars and not hearing "Please stand clear of the doors."

later,
mike

 

[TURKEY]

Wow, there are lots of us business folks that want to go work for Disney. It seems everyone here has knowledge about what will work.

I'm doubling in Finance and Econ and plan on getting a masters in transportation or logistics when I finish up next May (plus hopefully after another semseter with an advanced internship).

 

[jmarc63]

Originally posted by mlnance
This might be a dumb question, but what are the differences between the current monorails at WDW compared to the old Mark IV's that are in the "Boneyard." That is a cool pic of the boneyard.

I bet it seems weird standing inside one of those old monorail cars and not hearing "Please stand clear of the doors."

later,
mike

mlnance, you ask a good question, heres the difference.

The old MarkIV that was in use at WDW from 1971 till ther replacment sometime in the late 80s were 5 car trains and had 5 rows per car that had bench type seating that went the width of the car, each row had there own individual door per row and closed like a typical door with a hinge on one side. when the train was ready to leave a CM had to walk the lenghth of each train and manualy "slam" each door shut before they were set to go by control. You also had to duck while boarding and sit down right away.

The current Mark VI trains have some modifications to the old Mark IV. the Mark VI trains are 6 car trains, each car is shorter than the MarkIV. These cars are "transit" type in design in that they have the seating that is aranged in two seat and short benches that back against the outside of the train. each train is taller in height to allow for standees that the old Mark IV did not have, and the most obvious diffrence is that each car has automaticaly opperated doors that open to the sides like like the old "L" in chicago or the "T" in boston so they have the potential to hold more guests durring peak times with standing room.

 

[mlnance]

jmarc63, thanks for answering my question.

Now, I am curious (and Fantasia Boi may be able to answer this) how do you wash a monorail? Does someone have to hand scrub the entire monorail or is there some kind of electric scrubber that they use. I would love that job of scrubbing the monorail.

mlnance

 

[plpeters70]

Re: Re: Re: monorails

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi
However, WDW, we need something flexible, that can meet our demands. A fixed guideway system by definition, can't do that.

I understand all of your points, and these are all very valid, but I think I would need to see some hard data before I ever said that a monorail system at WDW could NEVER, EVER work. I agree that if they expanded the current system as they are designed NOW, then there isn't anyway that they could work. But I'm still not sure that with A LOT of good design a system couldn't be created that could meet the need.

I don't really mean to be argumentative, but it's not like you have a lot of hard data to back up the claim that a fixed guidway could never work -- I just think you've proven that the system AS IS could never work. Perhaps one designed SPECIFICALLY to meet the challenges of WDW Transportation could indeed be designed - we just don't know for sure.

 

[jmarc63]

Originally posted by mlnance
jmarc63, thanks for answering my question.

Now, I am curious (and Fantasia Boi may be able to answer this) how do you wash a monorail? Does someone have to hand scrub the entire monorail or is there some kind of electric scrubber that they use. I would love that job of scrubbing the monorail.

mlnance

LOL....................would be a heck of a big charge at a charity wash. But seriously

Fantasia Boi would be the expert but I beleive they use an automatic system simular to a Carwash that was specifically designed for the monorail and is located at the car barn behind MK. although they may of had to have modified it at some time to accomidate the taller Mark VI trains.
whats really cool is how they clean the Mono beam

 

[dmspilot00]

Fix the current system?

The monorail has a number of problems contributing to it's inefficiency. Let's think of ways the current system should be improved before trying to expand it. The unreliability and breakdowns seem to be the largest current problem--those need fixed obviously before the system can be expanded.

The fact that the guideway is above ground and visible to everyone is as much of a problem than the fact a guideway is "fixed." We can't design a system that goes everywhere it should without having a mess of tracks making it rather ugly. To make a completely new system would be too costly, however, so like I said before lets try to come up with ways to fix the current system.

I am not sure if I asked this before, but how busy does the express monorail get? Does it ever fill up completely?

The reason I ask is this: The stations would need to be modified, but, they could make both monorail systems (Resort & Express) stop at all stations... but traveling in opposite directions. One monorail goes MK -> Contemp -> TTC -> Poly -> GF, and the other one goes MK -> GF -> Poly -> TTC -> Contemp.

The signage would direct people to take the monorail that makes the fewest stops to their destination. Let's say we are staying at the Polynesian. In the morning if we want to go to MK, we are directed to the "clockwise" monorail (making 1 stop--at GF), or if we wanted to go to the TTC/Epcot, we take the "counter-clockwise" monorail (with no stops).

Unless you are going from one resort to another resort you either have 0 or 1 stops before you get to your destination.

Here is a detailed description incase I confused you.

We will start when Monorail on track 1 is at MK in the morning rush. It is probably empty. It travels clockwise first to the Contemporary, where it picks up passengers bound for TTC/Epcot. Then it goes to the TTC, dropping them off. It continues to the Polynesian and Grand Floridian, picking up passengers for the Magic Kingdom, and then they are dropped off for MK. The trip is complete.

Monorail on track 2, meanwhile, starts at MK and travels in the opposite direction, picks up passengers TTC/Epcot-Bound at the Grand Floridan and then Polynesian. It drops them off at TTC, and simultaneously picks up passengers going from the TTC to the Magic Kingdom. Then it goes to the Contemporary, picks up more passengers, and then on to the Magic Kingdom where everyone is dropped off and the trip is complete.

At night, Monorail 1 picks up everyone at Magic Kingdom, dropping some off at the Contemporary, and rest at the TTC. It picks up people from the TTC (coming from Epcot), drops them off at the Polynesian and Grand Floridian, and returns to the MK.

Monorail 2 picks up people from Magic Kingdom, drops them off at the Grand Floridian and then Polynesian. It picks up people from the TTC (coming from Epcot) and drops them off at the Contemporary. It returns to the Magic Kingdom, and repeats the process.

I don't believe it would cause the problems of a full train picking up passengers, because, for example in the morning, when a train gets to your station, it is either empty or has guests from only ONE other station on board. I don't think it would be a problem at all at night.

The only people who "lose" in this system are the people going directly between the MK and TTC. They would have to make a stop at the Contemporary. Considering there wouldn't be many park hoppers in early morning or late evening, these people are mostly those who didn't stay at a resort and are driving. It is only fair to not treat them special.

What do you think? If I had statistics, maybe I could make a simulation--I do some programming. Anyway, it is worth serious consideration, in my opinion.

P.S. Unless I already said this, it would be impossible to get on the completely "wrong" monorail. No matter which loop you take, you'll get where you want to go, but it would take longer if you didn't take the right one.

 

[plpeters70]

Re: Fix the current system?

Originally posted by dmspilot00
The fact that the guideway is above ground and visible to everyone is as much of a problem than the fact a guideway is "fixed."

I may be one of the only ones that thinks this way, but I love the look of the guideway - I think it looks great around that lagoon and around EPCOT. To me, there's just something so sleek and futuristic about it - and I just love watching the monorails travel on it. For me, I don't really feel like I'm at Disney World until I see those monorail beams on World Drive. The rest of the property just seems to city-like -- I love the design of the Monorail Areas - MK and EPCOT - and I wish the rest of the resort had been designed the same way.

Originally posted by dmspilot00
The reason I ask is this: The stations would need to be modified, but, they could make both monorail systems (Resort & Express) stop at all stations... but traveling in opposite directions. One monorail goes MK -> Contemp -> TTC -> Poly -> GF, and the other one goes MK -> GF -> Poly -> TTC -> Contemp.

I don't think this would work - the Express Monorail is very crowded in the mornings and evenings. They just fill up to quickly for it to ever be feasible - you really need at least one express line from the MK to the TTC.

I've said this before, but I really think having the TTC is one of the biggest problems for the monorails. If the Magic Kingdom's parking lot had been right outside the park, then day-trippers could have just left directly from there, and the loop from EPCOT could be directly connected to the Magic Kingdom - hence making park-hopping even easier. It would be a lot easier if each Theme Park served as it's own "hub" with connections to each one's own Monorail Resorts.

I realize that it was originally designed this way because there was never going to be park-hopping -- just travel to the city of EPCOT, but it really makes expanding the monorail system a lot harder.

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: Re: Fix the current system?

Originally posted by plpeters70
I may be one of the only ones that thinks this way, but I love the look of the guideway

Yes, I agree... but what I am saying is if they expanded it, and had quadrouple-track main lines all over the place...it wouldn't look good anymore. The only way to counter the fact that a fixed guideway system can't handle WDW traffic is to make an extreme amount of tracks going every which way, looking very cluttered. AND, if each park was going to be a "hub," this is what would happen...it would be a visual mess.

Originally posted by plpeters70
I don't think this would work - the Express Monorail is very crowded in the mornings and evenings. They just fill up to quickly for it to ever be feasible - you really need at least one express line from the MK to the TTC.

Too bad. We should make the people who drive and park at TTC take the busses! The reason as I understand it is Walt wanted to work up the suspense of the guests by monorailing-them in. But he didn't anticipate having so many monorail resorts, let alone the vast number of resorts in all of WDW.

 

[Invero]

Re: Not in the transport industry

Originally posted by leebier
I am a college student, Marketing and Econ double major
(see, not ALL of us marketing guys are evil)...

LOL... of course not... My father does Mar/Comm...

Originally posted by leebier
I do have to say, talking in here about this stuff has made me more interested in logistics, I'm gonna check out and see if my school has some intro classes, because this honestly facinates me.

Same here... Actually, it was working for Disney Transport that got me interested in all this stuff.

Originally posted by leebier
After I graduate, I'd love to work in marketing or somewhere in the park planning (i guess that fits under Imagineering, i dunno). Know any people I should contact?

I'd love to work for Disney Transport Imagineering... designing the future disney transportation system... fixing all the problems that the current birdbrain imagineers have caused... lol

Originally posted by leebier
Back on thread... I know there were a couple links earlier in the thread somewhere, but anyone have any good info on PRT? i'm curious to read about and subsequently bore my friends about it

I'll dig some up, and e-mail them to you or post them.

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by Just A Big Kid
Plus one other thing i found out that i found cool was there are still 2 of the Mark IV monorails in storage in what the castmembers call the "boneyard". I was sooooooo tempted to go look but i would have had to go back in where the employees go in and i didn't want to get busted so i changed my mind... Ok.. i'm done rambling now..LOL

Semi-False rumor. There are four WDW Mark IV Monorails still in existance. 2 were rebuilt, and are currently in use in Las Vegas. 2 are currently gathering dust in a storage facility in Kissimmee. You can view photos of them at www.preskitt.com -- Although as of recently, Disney has sold off part of Monorail Red. (Silver is the other train in storage)

And yes, I've been there, seen the trains, sat in them, etc.

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by garyhoov
I think the answer to that particular issue is that any system that will be considered needs to be reliable. I am absolutely confident that with the information, materials and technology that are available in 2002 it is possible to create a system that will not "break down" on any regular basis.

Indeed, I agree... it *MUST* be reliable. However... one point I might bring up... the added "Technology" that has been becoming more and more integrated the past 10 years has actually decreased reliability. For example, the added technology to the Mark VI monorails made them more prone to breakdowns than the previous Mark IV's. Another example, our 20 year old RTS busses with over 2 million miles are more reliable than the brand new Nova busses.

Originally posted by garyhoov
Obviously a Disney Transportation System will experience much more use and abuse than my Neon, and it will be based on technology that will not be manufactured in the same numbers as a consumer automobile, but I still think we can ask for a reasonable level of reliability. We simply need to expect that design and maintenance of any proposed system will be adequate to prevent anything but extremely rare "break downs".

You'd be amazed at the abuse those trains and busses take... As for reliability... we can sure ask for it... however, doesn't mean we will get it. I mean, you know how it all goes... "Lowest Bidder" and all. *sigh*

Originally posted by garyhoov
In my opinion (not to imply my opinion is worth a whole heck of a lot)

On the contrary... you've provided lots of valuable opinions... Everyone's opinions are valued here... even if they might not agree with each others opinions... that's what makes the discussion great! It also promotes the thought process to improve!