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Monorail Expansion?
- Thread starter mlnance
- Start date
garyhoov
Trophy Husband
True, but if you can't be idealistic on a discussion board, where else can you?
I think we ought to shoot for the moon. Tell the Board we want Disney World on Mars and then let them be the ones to tell us "no". If we ask for a great new transportation system, we probably won't get it, but if we don't even ask for it, we definitely won't get it.
no2apprentice
Well-Known Member
If Disney is going to stay successful, and WDW continue to carry the rest of the mismanaged Disney structure, it will have to be a careful combination of both.
Here's the thing, what new transportation system should they use?
Imagineers may be awesome at what they do, but they're not scientists. Monorails may not have been known or popular before Disney started using them, but they at least existed.
Right now, no one has any workable ideas for a new transportation system (save the possibility of PRT). Buiding more monorails is expensive, and yes, we should expect Disney to spend lots of money on transportation for us, we should also expect Disney to spend that money on good, efficient, AND magical transportation. Though more monorails certainly qualify as more magical, they wouldn't likely improve the transportation part of Disney Transport. Longer lines, longer wait times, and more transfers don't make for good or efficient transportation. Furthermore, while it IS magical to get on a monorail that comes right into the Contemporary and take it right to the gates of the Magic Kingdom; waiting over an hour to get onto a monorail after close to a TTC, then waiting in another line to get onto another monorail that must make 3+ stops before getting back to the front of your All-Star resort ISN'T very magical.
Walt didn't envision buses tansporting people around Disney property, but he also didn't envision the number of hotels and people that are on Disney property now either.
I don't think that any of us here are bus-lovers, or hope that buses will be at WDW forever, but we are pragmatic.
Also think of this, as much fun as another small line of monorails would be (suggested earlier by another poster), or any other more magical alternative, it would still cost a lot of money, and all the money they would spend doing that is money they couldn't use to build the new, good, efficient, AND magical system down the road.
As I said on an earlier post, I don't mind seeing the busses at WDW next year, or the year after that; but if buses are still the only way around 10 years from now, I will be very dissapointed.
Lee
Imagineers may be awesome at what they do, but they're not scientists. Monorails may not have been known or popular before Disney started using them, but they at least existed.
Right now, no one has any workable ideas for a new transportation system (save the possibility of PRT). Buiding more monorails is expensive, and yes, we should expect Disney to spend lots of money on transportation for us, we should also expect Disney to spend that money on good, efficient, AND magical transportation. Though more monorails certainly qualify as more magical, they wouldn't likely improve the transportation part of Disney Transport. Longer lines, longer wait times, and more transfers don't make for good or efficient transportation. Furthermore, while it IS magical to get on a monorail that comes right into the Contemporary and take it right to the gates of the Magic Kingdom; waiting over an hour to get onto a monorail after close to a TTC, then waiting in another line to get onto another monorail that must make 3+ stops before getting back to the front of your All-Star resort ISN'T very magical.
Walt didn't envision buses tansporting people around Disney property, but he also didn't envision the number of hotels and people that are on Disney property now either.
I don't think that any of us here are bus-lovers, or hope that buses will be at WDW forever, but we are pragmatic.
Also think of this, as much fun as another small line of monorails would be (suggested earlier by another poster), or any other more magical alternative, it would still cost a lot of money, and all the money they would spend doing that is money they couldn't use to build the new, good, efficient, AND magical system down the road.
As I said on an earlier post, I don't mind seeing the busses at WDW next year, or the year after that; but if buses are still the only way around 10 years from now, I will be very dissapointed.
Lee
plpeters70
New Member
I agree, but I don't see any reason why a new WDW Transportation system can't be part of this "idealistically practical" approach
-- as long as they spread it out over time and don't try to pay for it all at once, I would think it could be quite practical.They're going to have to do something at some point, so they might as well get going on it before things get even more out of hand.
plpeters70
New Member
Though I have seen a lot of interesting observations on these boards as to why the monorails "as they exist today" could not handle all of WDW's transportation woes, I'm still not convinced that Disney couldn't come up with a very well-designed and efficient design for a monorail system with minimal transfers that could handle the problems.
prberk
Well-Known Member
Re: Re: I agree, garyhoov
I know that busses are "controllable," and they may even cost less to operate than the monorail (but I doubt it over the years). Even if that is true, one key word was "less," as in less controllable. What I mean is multiple busses, with multiple drivers, on multiple criss-crossing roads, with multiple other vehicles (not at all controlled by the company -- only by their drivers), is by definition less controlled than a monorail on a track that goes over the heads of everything else.
One night I left the MK at closing time on the Disney bus, and was stuck in traffic for over an hour, getting to the Dixie Landings (Port Orleans, Riverside, now), while I watched monorails whisk by every few minutes. Had I stayed at the Poly, I would have been able to watch the traffic jams (or gaze at the lagoon) from the comfort of my own room within minutes of leaving the park...
Which leads to another aspect of cost... "opportunity cost." Any good econ major knows that cash flow isn't the only aspect of cost. Satisfied customers who return are worth some extra cost over simple savings that leave people frustrated. People stuck in traffic and frustrated with slow bus schedules also are not at the concession stand or souvenir shop where the monorail would have let them off!
So, don't be so quick to cite simple "cost". That is what Walt fought his whole life, and he showed the skeptics at every turn.
Can we say, "Disneyland" or "Snow White"?
I know that busses are "controllable," and they may even cost less to operate than the monorail (but I doubt it over the years). Even if that is true, one key word was "less," as in less controllable. What I mean is multiple busses, with multiple drivers, on multiple criss-crossing roads, with multiple other vehicles (not at all controlled by the company -- only by their drivers), is by definition less controlled than a monorail on a track that goes over the heads of everything else.
One night I left the MK at closing time on the Disney bus, and was stuck in traffic for over an hour, getting to the Dixie Landings (Port Orleans, Riverside, now), while I watched monorails whisk by every few minutes. Had I stayed at the Poly, I would have been able to watch the traffic jams (or gaze at the lagoon) from the comfort of my own room within minutes of leaving the park...
Which leads to another aspect of cost... "opportunity cost." Any good econ major knows that cash flow isn't the only aspect of cost. Satisfied customers who return are worth some extra cost over simple savings that leave people frustrated. People stuck in traffic and frustrated with slow bus schedules also are not at the concession stand or souvenir shop where the monorail would have let them off!
So, don't be so quick to cite simple "cost". That is what Walt fought his whole life, and he showed the skeptics at every turn.
Can we say, "Disneyland" or "Snow White"?
DisneyPhD
Well-Known Member
Re: Re: Re: I agree, garyhoov
NOT TRUE!!! From personal experience, leaving before the fireworks and park closing during the off season, we took over an hour to return to the Poly on the resort line. Had we taken the ferry to TTC and walked the rest of the way we could have done what you proposed.
NOT TRUE!!! From personal experience, leaving before the fireworks and park closing during the off season, we took over an hour to return to the Poly on the resort line. Had we taken the ferry to TTC and walked the rest of the way we could have done what you proposed.
It gets back to the fixed track and fixed route problems. One monorail stops = all monorails on the beam also stop. That's a lot of stranded passengers.
Monorails must pass through every station along the way to its furtherest station. Lets say you had a monorail leaving the new TTC and all the people were going to the All Star Movies, the track would have to be laid so it went through every resort/attraction along to way, even if it didn't stop there, and it likely would stop at those places because you can only set up so many "express" routes before you confused everyone beyond their abilities. So the route itself is longer, and you have to stop often, slowing things down further. Additionally, lets say you have the last stop before the TTC, if a large group boarded the monorail at the starting station, it's quite possible for a monorail to arrive that is too full to let you on, causing you to wait for the next to arrive, which might also be too full to let you on. In theory, you could have to wait for an entire resort to empty out before you can get on (an extreme example, i know, but you get my point).
In a point-to-point system (like busses or, hopefully, something else down the line), you don't have those issues. You get on at your resort and get off at your destination. Your wait is entirely dependent on the line ahead of you and not on what is happening at other resorts/attractions. The route is (theoretically) the shortest distance between point A and point B. Should one vehicle break, all others on that, or any other route can continue to move it's passengers, and the broken vehicle can be swapped out with minimal disturbance.
On a fixed track system, there is a limit to the number of vehicles than can run a particular route. There is no limit to the number of busses (or whatever else they come up with in a point-to-point system) you can put on one route should demand require it. Let's say that EVERYONE at the AKL gets together and decides to go to EPCOT on the same day. In just a few minutes, Disney Transport could re-route enough buses to get them all there without too much trouble (i.e. all the buses slated to go from AKL to the other parks just flip the sign up front and go). Though you could add a couple (maybe) more monorails to a beam, it would be slow and of a smaller capacity. The monorails would be fixed to a x-minute round trip schedule and no more than a certain number of monorails can run that route and so you wait and wait. Buses (or their replacements) can be syphoned (sp?) off other routes to run the one with extra demand in only as much time as it takes for the bus to get there.
There are lots of things to love about monorails, but a fixed track system does not work well with the ebbs and tides of peopel at WDW.
Lee
ToTBellHop
Well-Known Member
Re: Re: Re: I agree, garyhoov
How is a monorail system that would have multiple monorails, multiple drives on multiple criss-crossing monorail lines better than this. I am sure you have been on a monorail under the present system and had to sit in a stopped monorail while waiting for the monorail ahead of you to leave the next station. If disney further expanded the system, this would happen MUCH more. The two options are to have a couple new TTCs and have tons of switch-overs to get anywhere, or have monorail lines littered across the Disney Property so that you would never have to switch over anywhere. The problem with the latter is it would most likely cost over $1 billion dollars to build as it would require hundreds of miles of monorail track; this would cause park ticket prices to rise to probably $65 and hotel rates to rise substantially--it is simply not possible. The earlier plan would make it so that it would take an hour to get anywhere. There is no feasible way to further develop the monorail; the Disney Property is simply too large. We'll just have to wait until XS Teleportation becomes more reliable and we can simply beem ourselves instantaneously from one park to another without experiencing what Skippy went through...
How is a monorail system that would have multiple monorails, multiple drives on multiple criss-crossing monorail lines better than this. I am sure you have been on a monorail under the present system and had to sit in a stopped monorail while waiting for the monorail ahead of you to leave the next station. If disney further expanded the system, this would happen MUCH more. The two options are to have a couple new TTCs and have tons of switch-overs to get anywhere, or have monorail lines littered across the Disney Property so that you would never have to switch over anywhere. The problem with the latter is it would most likely cost over $1 billion dollars to build as it would require hundreds of miles of monorail track; this would cause park ticket prices to rise to probably $65 and hotel rates to rise substantially--it is simply not possible. The earlier plan would make it so that it would take an hour to get anywhere. There is no feasible way to further develop the monorail; the Disney Property is simply too large. We'll just have to wait until XS Teleportation becomes more reliable and we can simply beem ourselves instantaneously from one park to another without experiencing what Skippy went through...
plpeters70
New Member
All of those points you've made are definitely vaild - and they've been mentioned quite a few times on this thread, but how about coming up with some solutions to these problems?? Are we all so sure that there isn't any way that monorails could be made to work at WDW??
dmspilot00
New Member
How hard is it for a monorail to switch tracks? How expensive are switch beams? How long does the process take?
Donald_Quackers
Member
I think that Disney has a couple of high-speed switches between the resort, express and epcot beams that can switch in about 12 seconds. The switches at the shop don't have to move as fast I think. I know that this website has more info on the switches: http://www.monorails.org. As far as price, I'm not sure.
Re: Re: Re: I agree, garyhoov
So what happens when a monorail goes dead?
ALL MONORAIL TRAFFIC on whichever loop it is GOES DEAD. No one is going anywhere. The people on the monorails are stuck, the people waiting to get on then have to be redirected to bus or ferry.
If a ferry has a breakdown, only that ferry is out of operation. It's easier to take care of than monorails, but not as easy as buses.
A bus can have another take it's place very easily. No one besides that bus is down and you won't have a noticable increase in waiting times.
So what happens when a monorail goes dead?
ALL MONORAIL TRAFFIC on whichever loop it is GOES DEAD. No one is going anywhere. The people on the monorails are stuck, the people waiting to get on then have to be redirected to bus or ferry.
If a ferry has a breakdown, only that ferry is out of operation. It's easier to take care of than monorails, but not as easy as buses.
A bus can have another take it's place very easily. No one besides that bus is down and you won't have a noticable increase in waiting times.
plpeters70
New Member
Then they need a swift and efficient system designed to remove the "dead" monorail as quickly as possible from the tracks. I have confidence that they could come up with something.
Re: Re: Re: I agree, garyhoov
You can't say that people return only for the monorail. That's ridiculous. If someone does, they need their head examined.
If that's all they want, they can buy a parking pass ($6 a day) and ride the monorail all they want. That isn't going to add up to much.
Take opportunity costs into the picture all you want. Run cost-benefit analysises all you want. It's not going to make an expansion of the monorail any better than the current system with a heavy dependance on buses.
No matter what you do, it's not going to add up to be a benefit to add at least a $100 million expansion of the monorail when you can add and replace buses for much less.
You can't say that people return only for the monorail. That's ridiculous. If someone does, they need their head examined.
If that's all they want, they can buy a parking pass ($6 a day) and ride the monorail all they want. That isn't going to add up to much.
Take opportunity costs into the picture all you want. Run cost-benefit analysises all you want. It's not going to make an expansion of the monorail any better than the current system with a heavy dependance on buses.
No matter what you do, it's not going to add up to be a benefit to add at least a $100 million expansion of the monorail when you can add and replace buses for much less.
plpeters70
New Member
Re: Re: Re: Re: I agree, garyhoov
While I'm sure it wouldn't be the only reason, it's not ridiculous to assume that it could be part of a number of reasons why someone would return.
While I'm sure it wouldn't be the only reason, it's not ridiculous to assume that it could be part of a number of reasons why someone would return.
Those problems are the definition of a fixed track system, and they are the befefits of such a system for a major metropolitan area. They work great when traffic is approximately equal between any two points in the system, and people have ample time to learn the system and where they need to switch trains. Disney needs an extremely simple system because of the large number of non English speakers and because of the large number of suptid/careless people (look at those who can't even board the right bus, or handle the switch to Epcot on monorails) or people who don't want to learn a whole system for their weeklong vacation. Disney's traffic is also not equally distrubted between points and so the system needs flexibility. Fixed tracks are not flexible by DESIGN.
Fixed tracks and monorails are great. But they aren't what Disney needs now.
On a slightly different note:
We don't love monorails because they are long train-ish things on a single concrete rail built above ground level. We love them because they are/were a futuristic looking mode of transport using cutting edge technology. I think we're letting our love of monorails cloud WHY we love the monorails. We don't love steel and concrete, we love what they symbolize, and also the memories they hold.
Buses aren't futuristic, and they aren't cutting edge. That's why we don't love the buses. Stretching the monorails into some system that may or may not work wouldn't make the monorails more magical either. Monorails were perfect for the purposed they served at the time they were built.
Do I think we should get rid of the monorails? No. Emphatically NO. We should keep them for the same reason we keep the Friendship boats and the Ferry from MK to the TTC and the other fun, but inefficient transportation options around Disney. They are special for a lot of reasons, and so serve to take some traffic away from the workhorses of Disney Transportation.
We need a new system, one that is futuristic in aesthetic and in technology, just as the monorail once was. As soon as someone develops a technology that can be adapted for Disney's purposes, they need to jump on it. Shame on them if they dont.
Fitting the monorail's square peg into Disney's round hole isn't the answer though, no matter how elaborate of a "fix" we can dream up.
Lee
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I agree, garyhoov
I didn't say that it couldn't be a FACTOR, just not the ONLY ONE.
Because of this, you can't assign all costs of returning guests (which I'm interpreting from the post) to the monorail. The extra costs would have to be split among all of Disney with only a tiny fraction going to the opportunity costs of monorails.
I didn't say that it couldn't be a FACTOR, just not the ONLY ONE.
Because of this, you can't assign all costs of returning guests (which I'm interpreting from the post) to the monorail. The extra costs would have to be split among all of Disney with only a tiny fraction going to the opportunity costs of monorails.