Monorail Expansion?

[Invero]

I am very interested in transportation, anything from cars to trains to planes. I believe that one of the systems with the most potential, which is right now underdeveloped, is the monorail. [...] So I want to correct those mistakes and counteract the “it will never work” mentality that has so often impeded progress.

I'm the same way. It might not appear that way, but I am. I love monorails, and I think that they are underestimated, and would be great for a lot of applications. Not neccessarily Disney... but it other urban areas, they would work out quite well.

 

[wdwjmp239]

Everyone says it'll never happen now that the economy is bad, but back when things were peachy everyone was singing a different tune. Why would they spend all that money studying the Seven Gate Scenario if they never planned on implementing it?

Hey Monorail Lime - GREAT AVATAR!!! LOL

:lol:

 

[tigger1968]

I think one thing I love about this thread is that it refuses to go away......

I also love the support and information that Tyler provides to us monorail obsessed types...Thanks!! :sohappy:

One thing I hate is the posts from the guys that take this WAY too seriously...I mean the ones that really like to talk about all the reasons Disney's never going to do anything, and who seem to really enjoy pointing out the "flaws" in everyone's ideas. Lighten up, dudes. If some new member wants to put up his ideas, let them. I tend to fall in the middle on the whole thing....I want monorail expansion, and it will happen one day, but not soon. I just keep in mind the fact that the Imagineers never look at a project and say "We can't do that."

Anyway, that's my rant for the week...

 

[PhotoDave219]

I'm the same way. It might not appear that way, but I am. I love monorails, and I think that they are underestimated, and would be great for a lot of applications. Not neccessarily Disney... but it other urban areas, they would work out quite well.

Quite true, but it also has to do with design. One of the largest failures of the DC Metrorail system is a lack of a 3rd track that would allow for express trains from the suburbs to downtown. You have to stop everywhere, Full or Not. And thats where i think that Disney would have a problem if it created another loop, especially if it encompassed resorts - Too large with too many stops.

My main goal is to get from point A to point B as fast as humanly possible, hense i drive myself.

 

[TimeTrip]

An interesting design .. just a few questions

Here’s how I imagine the monorail system working. This does rely on changing the station at Magic Kingdom (which would likely have to be done anyway because of the size limitations of the Contemporary). You have two beams, and they have a stub end at the Magic Kingdom station. Like all stations, just before the station is a cross over switch, so monorails can move between the two beams. Monorail #1 is in the station on the right hand side. It loads up it’s passenger load (at crush time it will fill completely). It has 6 minutes to unload, load and depart. About 3 minutes in, monorail #2 comes in. It crosses over and pulls into the left hand side of the station, and starts unloading passengers. The switch moves to allow the first monorail to cross over to the outbound beam, and it departs. The second monorail, meanwhile, is loading up it’s passengers, and gets ready for leaving, A third monorail pulls up in the right bay, the switch moves, and the second monorail departs.

So the MK station would need two bays and one switch. I'm assuming then that a significant chunk of new beam will be needed for the resorts (everything between the TTC and MK along the contemporary side)

So the first monorail (it has passengers for Epcot resorts, Studios Resorts, and Animal Kingdom resorts. Let’s say two cars for each. At Epcot, all the Epcot resort guests disembark. Guests from Epcot get off, and guests for Studios and Animal Kingdom resorts get on. Guests for the Magic Kingdom resorts will use the northbound beam, and Epcot resorts would be using the trams and shuttles. So there is now 2 cars of MK guests for AK, 2 cars of MK guests for Studios, and 1 car of Epcot guests for each.

So if I follow you right , the epcot station needs 4 bays, with 4 switches. 2 bays for each direction (eg. north/south at Epcot), then 2 switches for each set of bays (inbound and outbound).

Now, there are very few, if any, guests moving from AK or Studios at this point northwards. And there are not as many people going from Epcot north. Since we are at peak our headways are minimal, 3 minutes between trains (this is quite possible – some systems can do 2 minutes or less!) Instead of sending one train all the way up to Magic Kingdom and back down, every other train will cross over to the other track, and return to the station to pick up Epcot guests bound for the Studios and Animal Kingdom. This would, in fact, give excess capacity to Epcot, so perhaps not every other train would have to head back.

This sounds kind os sketchy to me. You're shortchanging guests trying to leave the MK area. in addition you need to find some way to prevent people from getting on the monorail at AK or studios with the intent to go to MK. Either that or force them out at the Epcot station. neither is very friendly. Also, the design of a switch to allow all 4 bays at epcot to access both north-side beams seems sort of complicated. I'm guessing a better solution would be to have a switch further up the northside beam. In either case, this seems incredibly complicated, and Disney already has flow problems with the monorails with the system they've had in place for years ( how many times have you been on the monorail without holding for the train in front).

Another thing to remember is that a monorail loads much more quickly than a bus, and since it takes such a large number of passengers at once, it would seem like you are making more progress. You can achieve this by using a large number of busses, but then you are going to have huge backups at the parks since you can only load on bus at a time.

Well you also get huge backups at MK at the monorail station, plus there's still the problem of always having to transfer. Plus you still need a good way to get people from the resorts to the main monorail stations at the parks.

The idea is cool, I just doubt the feasablity of your Epcot excess capacity scenario.

 

[marni1971]

Going back to an earlier thread (or maybe this one - I`m loosing track here) unless some kind of individual transit car system is implemented, where individual groups can choose their specific destination and travel directly (as rumoured to have been looked at by TWDC) then I`m all for the backbone of the network being monorail, with feeder lines of WEDWay hybrids to groups of resorts (as in the original EPCOT, and as proposed for phase 2 of WDW.) Yes, there are changes to be made en route, but that happens in the real world too... without going over the same ground again heres my dream

 

[donsullivan]

A few people have asked why I am so stubborn about the monorails. So I figured I would explain why I take this position....

There has been a whole lot of discussion surrounding the topic of monorail expansion for many years on this and other boards around the internet. Unfortunately the overall flow of this one has created a level of frustration with many readers that just seems to be getting progressively worse. There are 2 reasonable ways to discuss this topic and I think it's important to keep that in mind.

1) A purely academic exercise where economic and other realities of the current environment (economics, existing infrastructure, environmental law, available construction techniques, existing development on the property, etc.) are ignored and a totally new concept is considered assuming nothing exists today. If this is the goal then it should be acknowledged and nobody would inject the practical realities of it's implementation into the discussion.

2) An honest attempt to re-engineer the existing transport systems used at WDW based on the current infrastructure base. This is a completely different exercise and subject to all economic, practical, logistic, customer experience and environmental issues that exist in the current environment that is WDW.

Most of the comments I've seen in this thread seem to be from people who fit into the 2nd camp. They are acknowledged fans of the monorail, but realize there are significant practical considerations necessary when considering a monorail expansion. I have seen very few comments about such expansion that did not include factual data about the barriers to such an effort; and they are substantial.

I am very interested in transportation, anything from cars to trains to planes. I believe that one of the systems with the most potential, which is right now underdeveloped, is the monorail. ...

If as you profess, you are a fan of transportation, you should also understand that a transportation system is created to service the convenience and needs of the passenger not the other way around. I took the time to go through my earlier suggested exercise with your plan last night. What I felt I learned from it was that the visiting guest to WDW would not be better served by this approach. Looked at scenarios of different attendance volumes like comparing mid January to Christmas week and the like, as well as different times of day, etc.. The result to me was a case of technology (the monorail) being used to for it's own sake, not because it improved the customer experience.

There's a phrase I've often used in my work life that relates to this:

"It's a solution in search of a problem"

Just my opiniion, I could be wrong.

 

[cloudboy]

This: Buses

is less complicated than this?: Monorail

 

[cloudboy]

So if I follow you right , the epcot station needs 4 bays, with 4 switches. 2 bays for each direction (eg. north/south at Epcot), then 2 switches for each set of bays (inbound and outbound).

No. It would only have two bays. The line is essentially two parallel beams the whole way from the Magic Kingdom down to Animal Kingdom. I was imagining having a new station built on the contemporary side over the area in front of the current bus stops. Well, actually, I was kind of thinking of a cool over the water thing with the beams turning, but that’s besides the point. Now I am beginning to question the whole old beams now.

All stations would be laid out really similar to the Magic Kingdom stop is now. Guests would board from the center, disembark from the sides. I would make the beams a little further apart, though. Since the MK and AK are on the ends, the line would simply stop after the station (bumpers, obviously). After the beams leave the station, but not too much further out, the crossover switch (essentially a big X shaped thing) would be located. At Epcot and the Studios, there would be a crossover on each side of the station.

If a train from the Animal Kingdom wanted to turn around at Epcot, it would leave the Epcot station to the north, cross over to the southbound track, the switch would then line up for straight running, and it would reenter the station on the southbound track. So at the Epcot and Studios stations, you would very likely have a northbound and southbound side. Magic Kingdom and Animal Kingdom, however, would load from both sides. It’s the same sort of alignment that is often used in airport trams or Boston’s Alewife station.

This sounds kind os sketchy to me. You're shortchanging guests trying to leave the MK area. in addition you need to find some way to prevent people from getting on the monorail at AK or studios with the intent to go to MK. Either that or force them out at the Epcot station. neither is very friendly.

Don’t get. Why would you want to prevent them from going to the MK?

Disney already has flow problems with the monorails with the system they've had in place for years ( how many times have you been on the monorail without holding for the train in front).

Big time! This is one reason why I am beginning to think the whole thing needs some work. Now I don’t know the hold points, or design headway, but it seems like the blocks (distance between hold points) is fairly large (anyone know where they are?). They spend a lot of time hanging around in stations, too. Part of this, of course, is because they use long trains, which require greater spacing. But I think a better system of blocking is in order. Also, the stations on the new line are going to be much farther apart so station delays won’t be as bad.

Plus you still need a good way to get people from the resorts to the main monorail stations at the parks.

All resorts will have some other type of transportation to the closest park. MK resorts obviously have the other monorail, or a tram or bus from WL or Fort Wilderness. Yacht and Beach and Boardwalk would probably get a tram, maybe later a people mover. Most of the others probably would use a bus still, perhaps articulated. But they would have a much shorter trip, and there is only one (well, two – still have to think about Downtown Disney) to choose from, so you simply hop the next bus.

So the MK station would need two bays and one switch. I'm assuming then that a significant chunk of new beam will be needed for the resorts (everything between the TTC and MK along the contemporary side)

Well, I was originally thinking of creative layouts in front of the MK, having the station actually extended over the water (design feature). But a few things are changing my mind. Number one – the whole system would need revamping for control and such. The Contemporary poses another problem – you can’t get any larger trains through there, and it would not be too good an idea to increase the frequency of them, either. One thing I have even heard (hopefully someone can disprove this one) is that the new Bombardier monorail is a few inches taller than the WDW monorail, and it is already a close call. You also can’t use many other manufacturer’s monorails, I found out, because in some spots the rails might be too close.

So I am beginning to think that maybe it would be just as cheap to build the whole thing from the MK down. The beams themselves are some of the cheapest elements – they are premanufactured. It’s all the electricals and signals and such, and that would cost a lot. You could make the monorail a lot lower to the ground – just high enough to discourage critters and other ne’er-do-goods from climbing up on the beams. Which of course will make construction costs and supports much less expensive. I wonder if the current beam between the TTC and Epcot could be re-used?

 

[TimeTrip]

No. It would only have two bays. The line is essentially two parallel beams the whole way from the Magic Kingdom down to Animal Kingdom. I was imagining having a new station built on the contemporary side over the area in front of the current bus stops. Well, actually, I was kind of thinking of a cool over the water thing with the beams turning, but that’s besides the point. Now I am beginning to question the whole old beams now.

It seems to me that they need to have 4 bays in order to accomodate your "one train loads while another train arrives" system. The endpoints at MK and AK dont' need this because you can only head one direction out. At Epcot and MGM you can either head north or south

Don’t get. Why would you want to prevent them from going to the MK?

Well, you said if you wanted to reroute a train that reaches epcot to come back immediately to the epcot station. In order to do that, you either lock out that train from people completely, or at AK and MGM you prevent people that are going to MK from getting on. Or force MK tguests off at epcot and make them wait for the next train. None of those sound very appealing

 

[monorail_man]

Pardon me for getting snippy here, but I am getting sick of the stupid guest comment. If they couldn't figure out how to get off a bus and onto a monorail they never would have made it through the airport or out their door to find the bus stop. It's one connection.

That may sound easy. bt you have to understand that people in general are stupid. I am not saying that to sound mean, but Isee it everyday. How hard is it to rember that ALL movies you rent are 5 night rentals and if you rent it on a Monday and we tell you that it's due back Saturday. Yet everyday we get peopel calling, "When are my movies due back?"

This is something as simple as returning a video. Now imagine thousands of the same people trying to transfer from monorails to buses and cabs and whatever else.

Liek Tyler said. Guest hate transfers. Rember K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid)

(Please note I am not calling YOU stupid. it's just the saying)

Possible Monorail Route

I am guessing from the map you made that the monorail from EPCOT to AK would only ride forward and backward since it is not a loop.
Wonder how well that would work?

 

[cloudboy]

I am guessing from the map you made that the monorail from EPCOT to AK would only ride forward and backward since it is not a loop.

Rather well, I think. Here's an example: A Stub End station . Monorails have controls at each end of the train. Guests would likely board from the center. A benefit to this design is that you don't have to worry about which side the live rail is on - it will always be on one side.

It seems to me that they need to have 4 bays in order to accomodate your "one train loads while another train arrives" system. The endpoints at MK and AK dont' need this because you can only head one direction out. At Epcot and MGM you can either head north or south

Epcot and Studios would only be able to load one car at a time (unless you did use multiple tracks or a long station). But you wouldn't really want to because you have to worry about monorail spacing. Mind you, there is no reason why you coould not do that, and in fact it would improve capacity some beacuse of less holding at the station...hmmm.....

Anyway, here is an example of how an express monorail would turn around at Epcot. I think I get what you are saying about denying people loading - I guess I just figure they would see the monorail turning around. There would be more trains in this system, plus only one third of the monorails passengers from Epcot would be headed north.

 

[cloudboy]

I am guessing from the map you made that the monorail from EPCOT to AK would only ride forward and backward since it is not a loop.

Rather well, I think. Here's an example: A Stub End station . Monorails have controls at each end of the train. Guests would likely board from the center. A benefit to this design is that you don't have to worry about which side the live rail is on - it will always be on one side.

It seems to me that they need to have 4 bays in order to accomodate your "one train loads while another train arrives" system. The endpoints at MK and AK dont' need this because you can only head one direction out. At Epcot and MGM you can either head north or south

Epcot and Studios would only be able to load one car at a time (unless you did use multiple tracks or a long station). But you wouldn't really want to because you have to worry about monorail spacing. Mind you, there is no reason why you coould not do that, and in fact it would improve capacity some beacuse of less holding at the station...hmmm.....

Anyway, here is an example of how an express monorail would turn around at Epcot. I think I get what you are saying about denying people loading - I guess I just figure they would see the monorail turning around. There would be more trains in this system, plus only one third of the monorails passengers from Epcot would be headed north.

Reversing direction on a Monorail

 

[TimeTrip]

Epcot and Studios would only be able to load one car at a time (unless you did use multiple tracks or a long station). But you wouldn't really want to because you have to worry about monorail spacing. Mind you, there is no reason why you coould not do that, and in fact it would improve capacity some beacuse of less holding at the station...hmmm.....

Well the thing is, if you do that advanced move (load while another train arrives) at any stub stations, you need to do it at the others which would require 4 bays. If you don't, you get backups, and you may as well only have 1 bay at the stub station.

Anyway, here is an example of how an express monorail would turn around at Epcot. I think I get what you are saying about denying people loading - I guess I just figure they would see the monorail turning around. There would be more trains in this system, plus only one third of the monorails passengers from Epcot would be headed north.

Any time people have to think about which monorail to get on, it makes it an inconvenience

 

[HennieBogan1966]

Let's discuss something that actually COULD or WILL happen. This project isn't going to take place any time soon, if EVER.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Well, we've tried that rational for years.... it never works....

 

[monorail_man]

Monorails have controls at each end of the train.

Yes. But it would not make sense to have the driver have to get out at the stations and walk back and forth from cab to cab.

 

[cloudboy]

Why not?In the time it takes to unload and unload at an end station, they can easilly walk down to the other cab and get things rolling in there.

It's a timing issue. You would porbably have a longer hold at the end stations, people would be able to board but you might havce an extra minute or two or the train while it is at the station.

Let's discuss something that actually COULD or WILL happen. This project isn't going to take place any time soon, if EVER.

Walt Disney World never would have gotten built if every discussed something they thought could or will ever happen. Yo uhave to make progress some time.