Monorail Expansion?

cymbaldiva

Active Member
K - I know this sounds dumb, but here goes...while the buses are generally just fine and the 1st time I ride one each trip I finally know I'm home :) , the monorails are just so for lack of a better word MAGICAL ! :D I do know it wouldn't be practical to have them all over the World, but I will always love them!

Monorails ARE Disney magic!
 

jmarc63

New Member
Re: Magic On Demand and Flex Dispatching

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi


We do have a few RTS busses with weak airbags on one side, thus causing the bus to lean when fully loaded and/or on a curve. Us drivers will write it up, but when maintenance checks it out, all is fine, because the bus is empty. But we won't get into my issues with maintenance.





I'm curious what time of day this was. My first thought is that it was before 11am, because of the close proximity of a Manager. From 8am-11am, we use MOD - Magic On Demand. Busses "Float" out of the All Stars. They are all parked between Sports and Music, and are dispatched from that location by a Coordinator. (Hence why a manager is often found hanging out there) Typically the busses are dispatched to go to one All Star and pick up there, and then head directly to the theme park.

It could be that the bus was told to go to Music... but went to Movies instead. At that point, obviously, the line will get pretty long at Music for the Studios. During the morning, there is a Cast Member at each one of the All Stars... they have a radio, and can call the coordinator dispatching the busses to let them know of any special situations, large groups, or whatnot. They also record each bus as it comes in, the time it comes in, and if they filled up and left people waiting. What probably happened is that the cast member called the coordinator, told them, "Hey, we've got a big crowd here, there hasn't been a bus in awhile."

At this point, the manager would try and call the bus that was originally dispatched. They might have not had the radio volume turned up, might have been busy, or had a broken radio. When the manager couldnt get a hold of the bus, she would have driven over to Music herself to see the crowd, and to do some "Guest Service Recovery"... also, the coordinator would have probably dispatched the next 2 busses he got into Music for the Studios.


After 11am... Most locations will revert to set routes. For example, the Studios will have 3-4 busses running the All Stars. It's a 40 minute run, so typically, a bus should come every 10-15 minutes, depending on how well spaced out they are.

Magic Kingdom and Downtown Disney are a bit different. Both locations are trying out a new form of dispatching called Flexible Independant Dispatching System, FIDS, or commonly called "Flex Dispatching." The way Flex works is a bus will pull into the Magic Kingdom, and the driver will be given a time out, and a route. The driver then goes and picks up at the MK for that route.

We'll use Caribbean Beach for example. With the old count sheets and fixed routes, CBR was on a 42 minute run. So if I was driving CBR, and my first time out was 15:00... I'd do the run... I'd probably get back around 15:34, and then I'd sit at the MK until my dispatch time of 15:42. Most of the times in, I'd be 5-10 minutes early, and thus, I'd sit for 5-10 minutes. In addition... if for some obscure reason, I become 5-10 late... now, those guests are waiting 5-10 minutes more for me each run.

With the new Flex Dispatch, I'll pull into the MK at 14:57... get dispatched to do the 15:00 CBR. I pick up, and head to the resort. I get back to the MK at 15:34. Now, instead of sitting around, they give me the 15:37 All Star Sports run. So, I load and go.

This new system provides a better utilization of our busses over Fixed Routes. Instead of having them just sit and wait at the load zones, we keep them moving. Over the span of a few hours, each bus has now done one or two additional runs. This increases our capacity, and lowers the guest wait times. We also don't have to worry about a bus being late. Because of the Flex Dispatching, 95% of the busses are returning early, or on time. The few busses that run a little bit late due to the use of the ADA Lift or Ramp, are dispatched off to new locations, and once again are on time.

Fantasia Boi


Well maybe there breaking down is poor maintainence . but in the 70s with the old Mark IVs which I miss deary never broke down when I was there. even during the heavy Christmass new years weeks.

Also every time I was on the bus in 93 I never got to sit in a seat I was always standing The only transportation I ever got a seat on was the Monorail even with the newer Mark VIs with there "transit" style cars where there are standing positions.

The other thing is the longer they wait to do anything the more expensive it is going to be to build
 

jmarc63

New Member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Monorail petition campagin!!!!!!

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi


Yes, I will agree with you... The mass population wants a Monorail. They all THINK that it is faster, and more efficient than a bus because it is bigger than a bus. They also think that they are more likely to get a seat. Beleive me, I have been with Disney Transport for 2 years, I have heard it all.

See, here's the problem with all that. The guests don't think about the logistics of it all. All they think about is that dream of them sitting on that whisper quiet monorail, as it wisks them away to their resort in 5 minutes.

Here are some common myths about the monorail.

MYTH: I hate standing on the bus. I'd rather take the monorail so that I can sit.
FACT: Actually... you'd have a better chance of getting a seat with a bus. Our standard RTS busses have 45-47 seats, and allow for 20-25 standees. That's 62-70% seated. The Nova low floor bus only has 35 seats (Disney is currently looking at a low floor buss with 44 seats, however no committment at this time) and 25-35 standing. That's 50-60% seated. With a monorail, there are 20 seats per car, and room for 30-40 to stand. That's 30-40% seated.


MYTH: The Monorail will get me there faster, because the bus has to make a few stops.
FACT: While it is true, busses will often make several stops within a resort, or service multiple resorts... so will the Monorail if it were expanded to service those areas. Think about it... All Stars... The monorail would still have to make stops at Sports, Music and Movies. (In fact, they might even have it stop at Coronado, since its on the way) Right now, as it stands, Magic Kingdom separates the All Stars. Epcot separates them at night as well. And in the morning, they're usually separate.

And as for speed... A bus is more direct. Yes, some busses make a few stops as outlined above, but a Monorail might require a transfer. Late at night during a park exit... Are you willing to wait in a huge line... stand on a monorail... get taken to a transfer point... stand in a huge line again... get on another monorail... stand some more... it might take 30-45 minutes to get there, whereas a bus could have you home in 15 minutes.



FACT: If a monorail breaks down, the whole system goes down. One time I spent 45 minutes holding outside of a station because the train in front of me broke down. 45 minutes... not to mention, it was 1:00am... and I had a fully jam packed train. There was nothing I could do, except sit and wait.

With a bus... if a bus breaks down... usually, it can pull over, and let other vehicles pass. (If it can't, Security can redirect traffic). Guests can be transferred onto another replacement bus.

One time, my bus blew a gasket, and overheated on World Drive. Within 5 minutes, I had all my guests on board another bus to the Magic Kingdom. This was before Flex Dispatching, so the coordinators brought online another bus to replace mine on the route. Had it been with Flex, they wouldnt even have needed to do that. Total downtime: 5 minutes.

FACT: Busses are flexible. I can't tell you how many times we as drivers will go "off route" for a few minutes to take a guest directly to thier destination. Many many times I'll pick up guests going to Magic Kingdom late at night, just to transfer and go to a resort. 99% of the time, I'll take them directly. Monorails can't venture off thier guideway.




So with all that I just said... I ask... do you still want a Monorail?


Yes definatly because of what I said on my last post
 

jmarc63

New Member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Monorail petition campagin!!!!!!

Originally posted by bamboo7


i certainly want to keep the monorails that we currently have. not for it's efficents, but for its value as an attraction. It is unique and interesting.

do i want the monorail system expanded?
sure, why not. but just for the same reason of why i want to keep the current monorail system

bottom line: it would be neat and fun to have more monorails, but i certainly won't be losing any sleep over a lack of new monorails.


HERE HERE:sohappy: :sohappy:
 

Invero

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by mlnance
The monorail is a ride, who cares what the heck the waiting time is, and whether or not we stand up or sit down. I could care less about waiting times or transfer times because I am there having a good time. Time is not an issue when your on vacation at Disney World, unless you want to see a parade or something. (At least that is how I view it).

Well, that's great that you and a few others on here have that point of view. But let me assure you, y'all are alone in that point of view. In the morning, guests want to get to the park ASAP. At night, guests want to get home, ASAP.

They don't want to wait in line for a Monorail, Bus, or Ferry... they just want to get home, and will yell at anyone who gets in thier way. They've waited in lines all day long, they are tired, and they are cranky. TRUST ME ON THIS ONE...

I remember one day at the Epcot... the train had been in the station 5 minutes, and there was another train in the Epcot teardrop. I made 3 Last calls, and then we went to dispatch the train. Put up the gate, closed the doors, and a guy comes running up trying to catch the train. I told him the next train would be along in 1-2 minutes. Well, aparently that answer wasn't good enough for him, and he started throwing a fit, saying I closed the doors on him, and all this other stuff. He then went into a bunch of other attacks, which aren't relevent to this post.

My point is... guests are impatient. This is not an isolated incident. It happens ALL the time. People just don't want to wait in line for another train.

Of course, on the flip side... at the Grand Floridian, I had some guests going to the MK. They got to the platform just as we were getting ready to dispatch the train. They walked alllllll the way down to the end of the platform, and then all the way back the other way... I tried doing a "Last Call" but they just stood there. I went down to the end and told them the train was leaving... they said, "We don't want to stand" I tried to explain to them that they'd arrive at the MK before the next train would even get here, and that they have a choice of standing 2 mins in air conditioning, or 5-7 minutes in the heat. And also that there is no guarantees for seats. They chose the heat. Meanwhile, 8 minutes later, they're all grumpy for having to wait... the train pulls in... and it's standing room only. So of course they give me this evil look as if it's my fault, even though I warned them.


My point is... Disney knows thier guests. They know that 99% of guests would choose Faster and more efficient transportation over something "fun" but not nearly as efficient.
 

jmarc63

New Member
Originally posted by Fantasia Boi


Well, that's great that you and a few others on here have that point of view. But let me assure you, y'all are alone in that point of view. In the morning, guests want to get to the park ASAP. At night, guests want to get home, ASAP.

They don't want to wait in line for a Monorail, Bus, or Ferry... they just want to get home, and will yell at anyone who gets in thier way. They've waited in lines all day long, they are tired, and they are cranky. TRUST ME ON THIS ONE...

I remember one day at the Epcot... the train had been in the station 5 minutes, and there was another train in the Epcot teardrop. I made 3 Last calls, and then we went to dispatch the train. Put up the gate, closed the doors, and a guy comes running up trying to catch the train. I told him the next train would be along in 1-2 minutes. Well, aparently that answer wasn't good enough for him, and he started throwing a fit, saying I closed the doors on him, and all this other stuff. He then went into a bunch of other attacks, which aren't relevent to this post.

My point is... guests are impatient. This is not an isolated incident. It happens ALL the time. People just don't want to wait in line for another train.

Of course, on the flip side... at the Grand Floridian, I had some guests going to the MK. They got to the platform just as we were getting ready to dispatch the train. They walked alllllll the way down to the end of the platform, and then all the way back the other way... I tried doing a "Last Call" but they just stood there. I went down to the end and told them the train was leaving... they said, "We don't want to stand" I tried to explain to them that they'd arrive at the MK before the next train would even get here, and that they have a choice of standing 2 mins in air conditioning, or 5-7 minutes in the heat. And also that there is no guarantees for seats. They chose the heat. Meanwhile, 8 minutes later, they're all grumpy for having to wait... the train pulls in... and it's standing room only. So of course they give me this evil look as if it's my fault, even though I warned them.


My point is... Disney knows thier guests. They know that 99% of guests would choose Faster and more efficient transportation over something "fun" but not nearly as efficient.

well maybe we could do what Walt had originally envisioned for the WDW area. Look here to see walts vision with the tandem peoplemover/Monorail systems to complement the entire property


Under features clock on the E P C O T Film and enjoy Is's about 22 min in length Hope ypu have DSL or Broadband

http://www.waltopia.com/

When you see the film pay close attention to the explnation of the transportation layout for the neighbourhoods.
 

Invero

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by jmarc63
well maybe we could do what Walt had originally envisioned for the WDW area. Look here to see walts vision with the tandem peoplemover/Monorail systems to complement the entire property

I've seen that video before... keep in mind, that transportation system that Walt was invisioning was for a CITY... and not a Theme Park. They are completly opposite when it comes to passenger traffic flow.

For example, Walt had it so that you took the People Mover to the Monorail, and the Monorail into the industrial area or theme park, to go to work.

Let's see how that might work here at WDW. We'll take Caribbean Beach. The WEDWAY People Mover would circulate through CBR, and then onto a main transportation Hub that would take folks to one of the theme parks. Now, in the morning, there is a constant flow of traffic going into the parks. As such, even a continuous system like the WEDWAY, it would fill up. If the system travels through seven stations, and I'm near the last station, I'll never get an empty people mover.

It would be hard to "Reserve" WEDWAY cars... guests at previous stops will get upset that they're not allowed to board an empty car. They don't understand why you're holding it. Something simmilar happens at night for Monorails. When the park closes at 8pm or whatnot... the Resort Monorail gets busy as folks want to get back to thier resort. However, at the same time, at the Contemporary, they are getting busy with the Dinner Exit. So guests at the Contemporary will recieve fully loaded trains, with no room to put the dinner guests.

What will commonly be done, is we will not open the doors for cars 5 and 6 at the MK... and guests will complain "why can't we get into the empty car"... It's the lesser of the two evils.
 

jmarc63

New Member
Originally posted by Fantasia Boi


I've seen that video before... keep in mind, that transportation system that Walt was invisioning was for a CITY... and not a Theme Park. They are completly opposite when it comes to passenger traffic flow.

For example, Walt had it so that you took the People Mover to the Monorail, and the Monorail into the industrial area or theme park, to go to work.

Let's see how that might work here at WDW. We'll take Caribbean Beach. The WEDWAY People Mover would circulate through CBR, and then onto a main transportation Hub that would take folks to one of the theme parks. Now, in the morning, there is a constant flow of traffic going into the parks. As such, even a continuous system like the WEDWAY, it would fill up. If the system travels through seven stations, and I'm near the last station, I'll never get an empty people mover.

It would be hard to "Reserve" WEDWAY cars... guests at previous stops will get upset that they're not allowed to board an empty car. They don't understand why you're holding it. Something simmilar happens at night for Monorails. When the park closes at 8pm or whatnot... the Resort Monorail gets busy as folks want to get back to thier resort. However, at the same time, at the Contemporary, they are getting busy with the Dinner Exit. So guests at the Contemporary will recieve fully loaded trains, with no room to put the dinner guests.

What will commonly be done, is we will not open the doors for cars 5 and 6 at the MK... and guests will complain "why can't we get into the empty car"... It's the lesser of the two evils.

Ok, Fantasia Boi, so its not a perfect soloution and I would have it that there be only one station per resort like the monorail is now, so you walk a bit, well. I will have to come up with a plan some how that i think would work.

I will tell this this happens on the chicago "l" from time to time durring special events like the all stargame Taste iof chicago so i dont think it wiould be all bad as that. Plus the new TTC would be moved to the center of the property and a new central parking lot for the parks.

as for the Monorail they were doing the same thing with holding cars 6 and 7 in the 70s with the Mark IV trains then as well , so I see that hasn't changed either
 

Invero

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by jmarc63
I would have it that there be only one station per resort like the monorail is now, so you walk a bit

Umm... I can guarantee you that would not work in Riverside, Old Key West, Coronado Springs, and Caribbean Beach.
 

plpeters70

New Member
Originally posted by Fantasia Boi
Now, in the morning, there is a constant flow of traffic going into the parks. As such, even a continuous system like the WEDWAY, it would fill up. If the system travels through seven stations, and I'm near the last station, I'll never get an empty people mover.

I have a question about this -- let's assume that the peoplemover at the resorts is as continous as the one at the MK - ie. there is always a line of cars at the station waiting to be filled. So if this were the case, is traffic flow of guests coming from hotel rooms to the "stations" really so heavy in the mornings that this type of system couldn't work. I'm assuming people would show up at the "station" at different times - just like at the bus stops. It's not like everyone gets there at once, so if they got there and immediately left, then there would be a few empty cars between most groups - right??? I would think that if they limited the number of stations on any peoplemover line to 3 or 4, then this sort of thing could work.
 

jmarc63

New Member
Originally posted by plpeters70


I have a question about this -- let's assume that the peoplemover at the resorts is as continous as the one at the MK - ie. there is always a line of cars at the station waiting to be filled. So if this were the case, is traffic flow of guests coming from hotel rooms to the "stations" really so heavy in the mornings that this type of system couldn't work. I'm assuming people would show up at the "station" at different times - just like at the bus stops. It's not like everyone gets there at once, so if they got there and immediately left, then there would be a few empty cars between most groups - right??? I would think that if they limited the number of stations on any peoplemover line to 3 or 4, then this sort of thing could work.

I wouldn't think from my experience that 60 people show up to fill a bus at the same moment it takes about 15 min to do then the bus shows up. so there is your full bus.
 

jmarc63

New Member
Originally posted by Fantasia Boi


Umm... I can guarantee you that would not work in Riverside, Old Key West, Coronado Springs, and Caribbean Beach.

Fantasia

At the beginning of this thread I thought you were with us now it seem that you doing a 180 on us. at least thats how I feel.
 

Invero

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by plpeters70


I have a question about this -- let's assume that the peoplemover at the resorts is as continous as the one at the MK - ie. there is always a line of cars at the station waiting to be filled. So if this were the case, is traffic flow of guests coming from hotel rooms to the "stations" really so heavy in the mornings that this type of system couldn't work. I'm assuming people would show up at the "station" at different times - just like at the bus stops. It's not like everyone gets there at once, so if they got there and immediately left, then there would be a few empty cars between most groups - right??? I would think that if they limited the number of stations on any peoplemover line to 3 or 4, then this sort of thing could work.

You are correct, it is a steady flow of guests coming up to the bus stops. However, keep in mind, currently, they are waiting for one of 5 different busses. With the people mover connection system, everyone would be getting on immedietly. Now of course, for safety reasons, you can't have the platform moving too quickly, so this limits the amount of cars that come by.

Also, someone mentioned something earlier... the people movers would have to be enclosed, to protect from the environment. This means Air Conditioned. Not too much of a big deal, but I'm not sure if I'd like my door opening and closing every time I get to a potential stop.

Also... one other point about the peoplemover... Can it be made to be Wheelchair Accessible? ADA Laws didn't exist when Walt came up with it... Not only do we have the ADA Laws now, but Walt Disney World has a large amount of guests travelling with wheel chairs, scooters, and other electric convenience vehicles. (ECV's) Whatever system is implemented, it needs to be 100% fully accessible by all.
 

Invero

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by jmarc63


Fantasia

At the beginning of this thread I thought you were with us now it seem that you doing a 180 on us. at least thats how I feel.

If you've been reading my posts, you could see that I've been trying to communicate that a fixed guideway system (even one that incorporates a peoplemover) would not work with the guest traffic flow of WDW. This is my stance, and it has not changed.

Now don't get me wrong... I am not a Monorail Hater or whatnot... I love monorails, and I think they have serious potential for our countries transportation systems... For example, Las Vegas. I can't wait for thier new system to open up, so that they can prove to everyone once and for all that a Monorail is a viable form of transportation.

All I am trying to say is that a Fixed Guideway System (and this can be light rail, monorail, or maglev) does not have the Flexibility to be able to handle the Guest Traffic Flow at the specific location of Walt Disney World. WDW has very UNIQUE traffic logistics.
 

jmarc63

New Member
Originally posted by Fantasia Boi


If you've been reading my posts, you could see that I've been trying to communicate that a fixed guideway system (even one that incorporates a peoplemover) would not work with the guest traffic flow of WDW. This is my stance, and it has not changed.

Now don't get me wrong... I am not a Monorail Hater or whatnot... I love monorails, and I think they have serious potential for our countries transportation systems... For example, Las Vegas. I can't wait for thier new system to open up, so that they can prove to everyone once and for all that a Monorail is a viable form of transportation.

All I am trying to say is that a Fixed Guideway System (and this can be light rail, monorail, or maglev) does not have the Flexibility to be able to handle the Guest Traffic Flow at the specific location of Walt Disney World. WDW has very UNIQUE traffic logistics.


Well you a bus driver and you love your bus........right?

Ok we have debated this for days and days it's just that since 90 when I heard the first rumors I was excited to see it happen ,But if not then............ i'll take the bus .... I gues.....on one condition you be my bus driver with that crazy bus that maks wide leaning turns.
 

Jekyll

New Member
I have to say that....Bus are great for speed and getting you there but and I am sure Fantasia will Agree...nothing is like pulling up at MK or EPCOT in a monorail.

-J
 

Invero

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by jmarc63
Well you a bus driver and you love your bus........right?

That is correct, I am currently statused in the Bus Operations department, and indeed I do love my job. I actually prefer driving my bus versus when I drove the Monorail. I get to have more fun, and more guest interaction.

Am I saying Busses are better than monorails? Not really. In a urban environment, a fixed guideway system like a monorail might be more advantageous than a bus. But for WDW, the bus is more flexible, and works out better.
 

Invero

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Jekyll
I have to say that....Bus are great for speed and getting you there but and I am sure Fantasia will Agree...nothing is like pulling up at MK or EPCOT in a monorail.

-J

Indeed... The monorail is great, especially when it travels through Epcot. When I am a guest, I always ask to ride in front too... a nice lil bonus. :)
 

mlnance

New Member
Original Poster
Fantasia,

Let me ask you this question. Since it looks like there's no monorail expansion set to begin anytime soon, do you really think the bus system will hold up over (let's say 5-10 years)? I would think by 2012 everyone's going to be sick of buses. I guess what I am having a hard time grasping is how the bus system will be able to hold up once more resorts (on WDW resort property) get built, plus one or two new parks get added on WDW property.

Another question, in your opinion, do you think the bus system will rule over monorails in the long run, or do you think that WDW is going to have develop something else?

mike
 

plpeters70

New Member
Originally posted by Fantasia Boi
Also, someone mentioned something earlier... the people movers would have to be enclosed, to protect from the environment. This means Air Conditioned.

Would they actually HAVE to be enclosed -- why not just build it like the Tomorrowland system - with a roof?? I've never found myself to hot on the one at Tomorrowland, and I think the only air-conditioned area is Space Mountain.


Originally posted by Fantasia Boi
Also... one other point about the peoplemover... Can it be made to be Wheelchair Accessible?

Good point. I wonder if they could construct a few cars that have spaces for wheelchairs and other vehicles? These things move so slowly in the stations that it might be possible to just drive one up a little ramp and onto the peoplemover.
 

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