Monorail Accident

[CoasterKing]

This is a very sad and tragic happening, that could have been avoided by one or two simple safeguards.

1) The "Control Tower" station at TTC should always be manned during train switching from one line to another. This is where the highest likelihood of a problem (such as collision due to not switching properly) could occur. They could and probably should require the "Control Tower" station at TTC to be manned in ALL situations !! Easy fix, don't allow the person in the "Control Tower" to wander all about TTC. Simple as that!!

2) Have a separate warning button in monorail cabs for when switches are being used. (Instead of one button with both the proximity alarm to other trains and the switches being open.)

And, IMHO, just because there has been no fatalities for 38 years does not mean the safety protocols used are good. It was a ticking time bomb just waiting to explode. Many, many easy no-brainer enhancements (See #1) could have been employed to prevent this tragedy.

Now, someone has died. I want everyone who has posted to this thread who basically have said "If its not broke, don't fix it" to attend Austin's funeral and go up to his Mom and Dad and say, " Your son is the only fatality for 38 years of the Monorail. Not bad, huh??"

I am so sorry, but this never should have happened. NEVER! Please forgive my rant, but one death that should have been avoided is one death too many, IMHO.

P.S. - There are also many other fixes (as already mentioned in earlier posts) that should have already been in place.

CoasterKing

 

[Monty]

This is a very sad and tragic happening, that could have been avoided by one or two simple safeguards.

1) The "Control Tower" station at TTC should always be manned during train switching from one line to another. This is where the highest likelihood of a problem (such as collision due to not switching properly) could occur. They could and probably should require the "Control Tower" station at TTC to be manned in ALL situations !! Easy fix, don't allow the person in the "Control Tower" to wander all about TTC. Simple as that!!

2) Have a separate warning button in monorail cabs for when switches are being used. (Instead of one button with both the proximity alarm to other trains and the switches being open.)

And, IMHO, just because there has been no fatalities for 38 years does not mean the safety protocols used are good. It was a ticking time bomb just waiting to explode. Many, many easy no-brainer enhancements (See #1) could have been employed to prevent this tragedy.

Now, someone has died. I want everyone who has posted to this thread who basically have said "If its not broke, don't fix it" to attend Austin's funeral and go up to his Mom and Dad and say, " Your son is the only fatality for 38 years of the Monorail. Not bad, huh??"

I am so sorry, but this never should have happened. NEVER! Please forgive my rant, but one death that should have been avoided is one death too many, IMHO.

P.S. - There are also many other fixes (as already mentioned in earlier posts) that should have already been in place.

CoasterKing

Respectfully, I said that without there being any known problem with the system as it was, no-one would necessarily think to fix it. Implying that somehow I should feel bad or should go to the funeral and tell the parents anything is insulting and inappropriate. To my knowledge there has not been anyone in this thread that for a moment suggested anything but sympathy and regret over the tragic death of the pilot.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Local news is saying that The Monorail Accident in WDW is now being investigated by National Agencies. Probably NTSB.

 

[Digger R US]

This is a very sad and tragic happening, that could have been avoided by one or two simple safeguards.

1) The "Control Tower" station at TTC should always be manned during train switching from one line to another. This is where the highest likelihood of a problem (such as collision due to not switching properly) could occur. They could and probably should require the "Control Tower" station at TTC to be manned in ALL situations !! Easy fix, don't allow the person in the "Control Tower" to wander all about TTC. Simple as that!!

That's the way I feel too. Knowing something about the air traffic control system for planes, it would be like the tower controller putting a "be back in 5 minutes" sign on the door and telling the planes to keep circling. Or the controller in the ARTCC just getting up from his seat in front of the radar and leaving it unmanned. I have many times come through the TTC and saw the booth empty and wondered...

 

[Mouseketeer67]

Thank you for the link. That was a very touching story and my heart goes out to everyone who has the pleasure of knowing him, especially his friends and his family.

My sentiments exactly!

 

[CoasterKing]

Respectfully, I said that without there being any known problem with the system as it was, no-one would necessarily think to fix it. Implying that somehow I should feel bad or should go to the funeral and tell the parents anything is insulting and inappropriate. To my knowledge there has not been anyone in this thread that for a moment suggested anything but sympathy and regret over the tragic death of the pilot.

You should feel bad, and obviously the going to the funeral comment was made to emphasize the fact that you or whoever else should feel bad, not to actually say you should go to the funeral, which you already knew. It was you insulting the family with your insensitive remarks, not me.

And yes, I believe everyone on this board has nothing but sympathy and regret over the death. I never said otherwise. But that does not diminish the fact that there were simple and easy procedures that could have been used to ensure absolute safety. And just because there has been no deaths (but apparently miner incidents) in 38 years does not justify closing ones eyes to any safety improvements. And I don't believe that requiring a person in the control tower at all times is unreasonable. And to hammer home my point even more, I believe it was negligent on Disney's part not to at least have that safety procedure in place. It seems common sense to absolutely verify that a switch is indeed in its proper place, especially when putting a train on a different beam.

Proper safety procedures is thinking ahead. All the time, not waiting for something to happen and then react to that. (Although that happens all too often.) Accidents do happen and will happen. But many can be avoided by being alert to new and better ways to do things.

CoasterKing

 

[CoasterKing]

That's the way I feel too. Knowing something about the air traffic control system for planes, it would be like the tower controller putting a "be back in 5 minutes" sign on the door and telling the planes to keep circling. Or the controller in the ARTCC just getting up from his seat in front of the radar and leaving it unmanned. I have many times come through the TTC and saw the booth empty and wondered...

Thank you Digger. Your examples are right on !!

CoasterKing

 

[board57796]

That's the way I feel too. Knowing something about the air traffic control system for planes, it would be like the tower controller putting a "be back in 5 minutes" sign on the door and telling the planes to keep circling. Or the controller in the ARTCC just getting up from his seat in front of the radar and leaving it unmanned. I have many times come through the TTC and saw the booth empty and wondered...

Not to start an arguement, nor to say that I think Central is manned at all times, but the windows on that booth are heavily tinted, to the point that, even at night when the lights are on inside I cannot tell if there is a person in there or not. In fact, one time I knew for a fact that 3 people were in there, and could not see any of them due to the tint. Also, normally when people are in there they are sitting, so looking up you would only be able to glance their head, but like I said the windows are incredibly dark.

 

[ClemsonTigger]

You should feel bad, and obviously the going to the funeral comment was made to emphasize the fact that you or whoever else should feel bad, not to actually say you should go to the funeral, which you already knew. It was you insulting the family with your insensitive remarks, not me.

And yes, I believe everyone on this board has nothing but sympathy and regret over the death. I never said otherwise. But that does not diminish the fact that there were simple and easy procedures that could have been used to ensure absolute safety. And just because there has been no deaths (but apparently miner incidents) in 38 years does not justify closing ones eyes to any safety improvements. And I don't believe that requiring a person in the control tower at all times is unreasonable. And to hammer home my point even more, I believe it was negligent on Disney's part not to at least have that safety procedure in place. It seems common sense to absolutely verify that a switch is indeed in its proper place, especially when putting a train on a different beam.

Proper safety procedures is thinking ahead. All the time, not waiting for something to happen and then react to that. (Although that happens all too often.) Accidents do happen and will happen. But many can be avoided by being alert to new and better ways to do things.

CoasterKing

Hindsight is always 20 20, isn't it...
Too many people are assuming too much, making unsubstantiated conclusions.

As I deal with policies and procedures day in and day out, you can have all of them that you want...it doesn't mean you can guarantee everyone following them.

 

[traveler93]

I'm sure it's probably been asked a million times, and answered twice as many, but I really can't read through all 82 pages looking ... Do you know why this happened? :shrug:

As someone mentioned before, the change of the rule about passengers in the front.. I really hope they don't, riding in the front was always fun and a great memory I have from my trips to Disney.

 

[MythBuster]

I'm sorry but that is a flat out lie...I don't know who told you this, but the log in the trains doesn't even keep track of some of those things you mentioned. How do I know? I was a pilot for 5 months earlier this year. And yes I did know Austin. The only thing the log in the trains keeps track of is when you log in and any indications the train send to notify the driver of train issues, changes in MBS, etc. If what you are saying is true (which I don't think it is) and he put his train in reverse while he was still moving forward, the only thing that would show up in the logs is that he got a train control (because that's what happens when you change "gears" while the train is still moving). I also don't get the whole e-stopping deal either. If he saw a train coming at him, why would he e-stop the train?

A FLAT OUT LIE?? You worked in operations for 5 months? and now you are an expert in everything even the engineering/maintenance side? I just think you are totally clueless and doesnt really know what goes on behind the scenes.

I wasnt talking about the driver logs, they only see what they want you to see. I'm talking about the monorail computer logs that records everything similar to a black box in a airplane.

 

[Monty]

You should feel bad, and obviously the going to the funeral comment was made to emphasize the fact that you or whoever else should feel bad, not to actually say you should go to the funeral, which you already knew. It was you insulting the family with your insensitive remarks, not me.

And yes, I believe everyone on this board has nothing but sympathy and regret over the death. I never said otherwise. But that does not diminish the fact that there were simple and easy procedures that could have been used to ensure absolute safety. And just because there has been no deaths (but apparently miner incidents) in 38 years does not justify closing ones eyes to any safety improvements. And I don't believe that requiring a person in the control tower at all times is unreasonable. And to hammer home my point even more, I believe it was negligent on Disney's part not to at least have that safety procedure in place. It seems common sense to absolutely verify that a switch is indeed in its proper place, especially when putting a train on a different beam.

Proper safety procedures is thinking ahead. All the time, not waiting for something to happen and then react to that. (Although that happens all too often.) Accidents do happen and will happen. But many can be avoided by being alert to new and better ways to do things.

CoasterKing

There is nothing insulting to the family of the pilot in discussing the question of whether or not someone in Disney's organization could reasonably be expected to envision the tragedy that occurred prior to its occurrance. Safety measures in any circumstance are a balance between cost and risk. If you protect every employee from every potential risk that they might encounter in the conduct of their day-to-day work you will never be able to run a business because the safety measures will bankrupt you. As a result, despite your naive black-and-white view of the world, is that Disney put in place what it believed to be reasonable safety practices and reviews and amends them from time to time as warranted, as they are no doubt doing now.

Armchair quarterbacking after the tragedy and suggesting negligence on their part is very easy to do. I will leave any such determination to the appropriate authorities. However, I will not "feel bad" for presenting a reasonable position in a reasoned manner during a discussion on an issue.

 

[tnichols]

Maybe a cheap backup camera in each monorail might have prevented this accident. Of course the pilot has to look at it when reversing. I have one of these things on my car, so I know they are not that expensive.

 

[Big Cheese]

This is a very sad and tragic happening, that could have been avoided by one or two simple safeguards.

I am so sorry, but this never should have happened. NEVER! Please forgive my rant, but one death that should have been avoided is one death too many, IMHO.



CoasterKing

Spare me, where is this perfect world you live in because it certainly isn't Disney or anywhere else here on Planet Earth.:shrug:

The only thing plain & simple is accidents happen every day, everywhere. Sadly, that day one of them just happened to be on that rail.

All of these "simple" safeguards you mention will only minimize accidents, but NEVER prevent them.

 

[majortom1981]

Respectfully, I said that without there being any known problem with the system as it was, no-one would necessarily think to fix it. Implying that somehow I should feel bad or should go to the funeral and tell the parents anything is insulting and inappropriate. To my knowledge there has not been anyone in this thread that for a moment suggested anything but sympathy and regret over the tragic death of the pilot.

That is wrong RollerCoasters have more safeguards for track switching then the monorails do . So dont tell me they didnt know this could happen. Its more of a they rather have not spent the money to install more safety so they hoped it wouldnt happen.

You cant tell me that a Disney imagineers didnt know this could happen while a company like Intamin would (who designs roller coasters).

PS I am sure Disney knew about this or expect a track switch disaster on Expedition Everest Also.

Each train should have a screen or indicators to what the switch is doing and what position its in or atleast not be able to me (even in override) if it does not switch correctly. This is not hard to implement. Cost money yes but not hard to implement. I am sure a company like inamin who also designs monorails and coasters would be able to help with these upgrades.

Its more of a matter if disney really wants to spend the money.

 

[CoasterKing]

There is nothing insulting to the family of the pilot in discussing the question of whether or not someone in Disney's organization could reasonably be expected to envision the tragedy that occurred prior to its occurrance. Safety measures in any circumstance are a balance between cost and risk. If you protect every employee from every potential risk that they might encounter in the conduct of their day-to-day work you will never be able to run a business because the safety measures will bankrupt you. As a result, despite your naive black-and-white view of the world, is that Disney put in place what it believed to be reasonable safety practices and reviews and amends them from time to time as warranted, as they are no doubt doing now.

Armchair quarterbacking after the tragedy and suggesting negligence on their part is very easy to do. I will leave any such determination to the appropriate authorities. However, I will not "feel bad" for presenting a reasonable position in a reasoned manner during a discussion on an issue.

As I have stated earlier, accidents do happen and will happen. The problem I have is the fact that this particular accident should not have happened. By requiring the Control Tower to be manned at all times, instead of being able to wander around the station, is not going to bankrupt Disney. So cost is zero. So tell me how many business' in the country will, if you say that they can improve safety features at no cost, will say no. It wouldn't have cost Disney one penny. And who knows, maybe it is a requirement that the Control Tower always be manned, but the CM didn't follow it.

Sure, there is always a point the $$$ comes into play. Could Disney have spent millions of dollars and a myriad of improvements? Sure. Was it warranted? Probably not. Why? Because simple no cost solutions are available.

Once again, you say Disney put in place what they believed to be reasonable safety procedures. Do you have first-hand knowledge that Disney believed it had reasonable safety procedures in place? No one but Disney knows that. Would the average person, safety consultant or anyone else believe it is reasonable to leave a control tower empty when critical operations occur of moving monorails from one beam to another. Do you think the control tower should be unmanned at that time or any other time? What if a switch doesn't get moved when it was supposed to?

Wasn't there a monorail accident xx many years ago regarding a switch not in the proper position? Why weren't these issues addressed then?? Let's see, how can we avoid in the future a train going over a switch in the wrong position? Or if they were addressed then, how did the most obvious solution slip their mind?

Okay, you stay in your closed-box world that is "everything is okay until an accident happens". I'll stay in my black-and-white world trying to improve on things so accidents don't happen.

CoasterKing

 

[brkgnews]

Okay, you stay in your closed-box world that is "everything is okay until an accident happens". I'll stay in my black-and-white world trying to improve on things so accidents don't happen.

Yeah, Monty... whadda you know about transportation accidents and safety protocols anyway?
:lookaroun :lookaroun :lookaroun

 

[Monorail_Orange]

So, you mean you could see the non-crushed nose of Purple from the bay doors that open to let the trains in? Because the trains can ONLY face out with Cab 1 being pointed out the door. Cab 6 is back in shop, which is not easily viewable as there are only small windows in that wall. So if you actually did see Purple, with its non-crushed nose pointing out towards the Magic Kingdom, that means it was its Cab 6 nose, and the only way that is possible is if it was reattached?

Cab 1 was crushed on Purple, so if the bay holding Purple had its door open, you should/would have seen the damaged nose. There is no way to get it so Cab 1 of Purple in towards the inside of shop, without taking the train off the beam....?

Just trying to figure the WHY behind this, and I think I understand. Evidently the trains were assembled onto the beam with Cab 1 facing the MK, and no matter what beam it operates on during the day, when it does go back to shop at night (or the next night if it's one of the two left out on a beam that night), Cab 1 will still be facing the MK.

So given the direction of "normal" travel on each beam, Resort is always piloted from Cab 6, Express is always piloted from Cab 1, and EPCOT is always piloted from Cab 1.

 

[Monty]

Yeah, Monty... whadda you know about transportation accidents and safety protocols anyway?
:lookaroun :lookaroun :lookaroun

I was trying to avoid the "Been there, done that" approach... :shrug:


:lol:

 

[Amber]

Yeah, Monty... whadda you know about transportation accidents and safety protocols anyway?
:lookaroun :lookaroun :lookaroun

Ya know, I was just thinking the same thing...