MM+ Why we can't have nice things.

[doctornick]

If Chester and Hester's had 2 more small scale attractions (between primeval whirl and Triceratops spin on the official theme park ride wow factor scale) and a dinosaur zoo with several top notch animatronic dinos we could visit, it would be a very nice area.

Yeah, that to me is the worse aspect of Dinorama. While not a particular fan, I'm not a big detractor of the concept, but if you are going to make a "carnival area" put in more than 2 rides. I can't believe they don't have another ride or two there. As a contrast, look at A Bug's Land in DCA which is similar in style to some extent but has more rides. It's particularly glaring since DCA only has two non-height restriction rides -- would be nice to have some more kid accessible stuff there.

Take out the carnival games and put in a tilt-a-work or a dinosaur themed dark ride (like a carnival fun house).

 

[Captain Chaos]

And do you compare MM+ service center to Sids? Hmmmm

No way... I don't consider a service center an addition or a new customer experience... I consider new attractions, new restaurants.. things like that.... Not a service center..

But again, this is where we need to come up with a set criteria (what to include, not include) and draw the line somewhere...

 

[Captain Chaos]

But if it is something major replacing something minor it would make sense to include it. I don't know if there has been anything that fits in this category in the last few years, but looking ahead you wouldn't exclude Avatarland just because it replaced CMM.

No matter what you include, this list is always going to be subjective when you are trying to evaluate additions to the parks. I say list everything and let people make up their own minds.

Right, I would NOT include Avatarland.. But is it an addition or a replacement? It is a replacement... If it was an addition, Avatarland would be built IN ADDITION TO Camp Minnie-Mickey staying... That's what I mean... Are we looking for a list of new ADDITIONS or simply new EXPERIENCES?

Dad said WDW had many new additions... Adding without taking away, then he would be wrong... WDW did not have many new additions.. Now, if he really meant new experiences, he may have a point... Criteria is very important in determining the list...

Some time during the rest of this evening, as Christmas festivities die down, I'll start compiling a list... We can then go from there, with adding or subtracting as we see fit...

 

[GoofGoof]

Geez guys it's Christmas, so I'm gonna make a sentimental, and maybe sappy post... try to remember we are all actually on the same team (except for a few who play for a different team, you know who you are). We all want the same thing...a great experience at WDW. Everyone has different ways of expressing themselves, but I have been here long enough to know that it comes from a genuine desire for WDW to be great. Some posters are still optimistic and generally happy with the current direction of things. There is nothing wrong with that. Let them be. On the flip side some posters have become jaded and skeptical after a series of perceived unfortunate events or non-events. Most of these people started out as so called "pixie dusters" at some point or they wouldn't be here. This is understandable to me. Disney needs to earn those fan's trust back. Maybe someday when great things are announced and actually done at WDW we will all be back to where we want to be and we can all consider ourselves "pixie dusters" again. Then we'll need to find something else to argue about...maybe politics or Soccer vs American Football.

 

[WDWDad13]

Right, I would NOT include Avatarland.. But is it an addition or a replacement? It is a replacement... If it was an addition, Avatarland would be built IN ADDITION TO Camp Minnie-Mickey staying... That's what I mean... Are we looking for a list of new ADDITIONS or simply new EXPERIENCES?

Dad said WDW had many new additions... Adding without taking away, then he would be wrong... WDW did not have many new additions.. Now, if he really meant new experiences, he may have a point... Criteria is very important in determining the list..
Some time during the rest of this evening, as Christmas festivities die down, I'll start compiling a list... We can then go from there, with adding or subtracting as we see fit...

New additions/experiences...including replacements is what I am talking about.

 

[doctornick]

Right, I would NOT include Avatarland.. But is it an addition or a replacement? It is a replacement... If it was an addition, Avatarland would be built IN ADDITION TO Camp Minnie-Mickey staying... That's what I mean... Are we looking for a list of new ADDITIONS or simply new EXPERIENCES?

But the "meat" of CMM is staying. FOTLK is going to continue and will be located in a more sensible land. The character M&Gs are going to be relocated to other areas in the park. What is being "lost" from CMM? Some light theming? I mean, as a "land", I don't think anyone will miss it.

I would certainly agree that all too often that WDW has seen replacements rather than additions. But Pandora doesn't fall into this category to me since it will be adding new attractions without losing anything.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I fail to see the point in listing out additions. There is no context or relationship to other areas of Walt Disney Parks and Resorts.

 

[Captain Chaos]

But the "meat" of CMM is staying. FOTLK is going to continue and will be located in a more sensible land. The character M&Gs are going to be relocated to other areas in the park. What is being "lost" from CMM? Some light theming? I mean, as a "land", I don't think anyone will miss it.

I would certainly agree that all too often that WDW has seen replacements rather than additions. But Pandora doesn't fall into this category to me since it will be adding new attractions without losing anything.

As a land, no it won't be missed... My point was, CMM is being replaced... Avatarland isn't an addition... I agree the movement of FOTLK to Africa section is only common sense and fits better... And not being replaced obviously... Disney now considers meet and greets attractions, though I wouldn't, as many of the folks here wouldn't... But, let's also not forget, Pocahontas was closed down a while ago, so we did lose at least one attraction/show...

But, really, I meant that as an example... replacing one thing with another isn't really an addition (though maybe CMM to Avatarland isn't the best of examples as pointed out above)...

 

[CRO-Magnum]

But to me, this represents the evolution of an attitude shift that has been years in the making

You are correct! Although the planning started in 2002/2003 the actual roll-out of changes to shift from a maximum lifetime value to maximum trip value strategy started to gain momentum around 2005. All the changes to the ticketing structure, scaling up the rate of yearly ticket price increases, looking to extend the "experience" with in-park premium options, etc were all precursors to MM+.

One of the last remnants of the maximum lifetime strategy is the DVC. Unfortunately they're now being victimized by MM+ et al. Two good friends, DVC owners for years, bought with intent to go twice a year with their families. Due to surging prices they cut back to once a year in 2010 and are now to the point they can't afford to go even once a year. It's simple economics: Disney prices have scaled up at a multiple of inflation while incomes have stagnated. Both are currently selling their points and are looking at exit options.

As I've said on these boards several times before - Disney has simply gotten too expensive. And I believe if they can't make MM+ work it will be the tipping point in a long, steady decline in attendance. Having sapped the parks of much needed funds, guests will increasingly realize WDW simply doesn't warrant a return visit. If this spread to Disneyland it could by devastating.

I suppose in the end it can all be ascribed to the cyclical nature of business.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I don't think you are an idiot like others have called you, but you sure come off and act like one...

Come on mate. It's Christmas and you are on the internet calling your fellow forum members an idiot.

And five likes too. Et tu, @George , @lazyboy97o ?

I'm outta here. Merry Christmas to you all.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Come on mate. It's Christmas and you are on the internet calling your fellow forum members an idiot.

And five likes too. Et tu, @George , @lazyboy97o ?

I'm outta here. Merry Christmas to you all.

Did you read what I actually wrote? I never called him an idiot, in fact I said I DO NOT THINK YOU ARE AN IDIOT LIKE OTHERS HAVE CALLED YOU... Huge difference than calling him an idiot and saying he comes off as looking and acting like one...

For the record, I don't think you are an idiot either, but when you post a comment on a thread about a post you clearly did not comprehend, well.... you may come off looking foolish, and maybe like an idiot, despite not being one... Get what I am saying?

 

[ParentsOf4]

As a land, no it won't be missed... My point was, CMM is being replaced... Avatarland isn't an addition... I agree the movement of FOTLK to Africa section is only common sense and fits better... And not being replaced obviously... Disney now considers meet and greets attractions, though I wouldn't, as many of the folks here wouldn't... But, let's also not forget, Pocahontas was closed down a while ago, so we did lose at least one attraction/show...

But, really, I meant that as an example... replacing one thing with another isn't really an addition (though maybe CMM to Avatarland isn't the best of examples as pointed out above)...

Thinking about Camp Mickey Minnie, it does remind me that it used to have a Pocahontas show that closed years ago. That closed and never was replaced.

Overall, Pandora represents a major addition but I do recall how many things closed (e.g. Wonders of Life Pavilion with 3 attractions, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Hunchback of Notre Dame show, etc.) without ever being truly replaced.

Focusing on the New Fantasyland, Disney is adding Seven Dwarfs Mine Train, Mermaid, a second Dumbo (I wish Disney would double up on Soarin' & TSM as well), and Beauty & the Beast (it's a small show though) while losing 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (a truly classic WDW attraction) and Snow White. (A couple of meet-and-greets got moved or replaced.)

Be Our Guest was an important addition as a TS restaurant but the new Fantasyland hardly counts as much of an addition when it comes to attractions. Besides, I miss the Mickey and Minnie House walk-through attractions. (And yes, Disney counted those as attractions.) One could argue that Beauty & the Beast is a replacement for those 2 walkthroughs.

Thinking back further, it seems that Expedition Everest (2005) and Lights, Motor, Action (also 2005) were the last major additions at WDW. (Am I missing something since then that wasn't a replacement?)

Particularly with Expedition Everest, it's tough to justify giving Disney a ton of create for adding that since DAK is almost embarrassingly short of attractions for what is the physically largest WDW theme park. Really, DAK should have opened in 1998 with Expedition Everest already there.

I suppose one could argue that Pandora finally fills the spot of the missing Beastly Kingdom and argue that WDW should have done that 10 years ago. Still, as a true new land, I like to think of Pandora as a full-blown theme park addition meriting full credit.

Returning to the point of this thread, it's most unfortunate that Burbank has been infatuated with MyMagic+ for the last 5 years. Epcot, DHS, and DAK really do need some major additions if Disney ever hopes to distribute crowds more evenly at its 4 parks.

 

[Captain Chaos]

@ParentsOf4

That is a good way of looking at it... I may use your line of thinking as I try to compile a list tomorrow...

As for tonight, hope everyone had a Merry Christmas and tomorrow have a Joyous Kwanzaa...

 

[marni1971]

Morning, and......

Oh dear.

 

[WDWDad13]

As a land, no it won't be missed... My point was, CMM is being replaced... Avatarland isn't an addition....

Like I said this is a waste of time because some of you will spin it however you want to try to "prove" your case and then call me an idiot in return....so why bother

 

[marni1971]

Like I said, leave other parks comparisons out of it. Let's compare WDW against its own legacy and expectations and nothing more.

That should make it easier.

 

[SirLink]

No way... I don't consider a service center an addition or a new customer experience... I consider new attractions, new restaurants.. things like that.... Not a service center..

But again, this is where we need to come up with a set criteria (what to include, not include) and draw the line somewhere...

This is so easy any guest experience( i.e. Shops/Restaurants/Attractions) that opened within the calendar year 2013.

 

[WDWDad13]

Like I said, leave other parks comparisons out of it. Let's compare WDW against its own legacy and expectations and nothing more.

That should make it easier.

Then what point is anyone trying to make here that we don't already know

 

[marni1971]

Then what point is anyone trying to make here that we don't already know

Because any discussion about declining quality at the WDW parks quickly descends into arguing and babbling about how things are done.... differently.... at other companies parks. Take other places out of the equation and its clearer to see what the issues are in the World. Since that's why the thread was started.

But, if it is a waste of time then why bother wasting time posting in this thread? Maybe it should be abandoned.

 

[WDWDad13]

Because any discussion about declining quality at the WDW parks quickly descends into arguing and babbling about how things are done.... differently.... at other companies parks. Take other places out of the equation and its clearer to see what the issues are in the World. Since that's why the thread was started.

But, if it is a waste of time then why bother wasting time posting in this thread? Maybe it should be abandoned.

fine by me... we know things are different then they use to be... Uni is playing catch up as they need to... things will swing back and forth between the 2 like most things.... the argument is that we can't prove MM+ is the cause of WDW stagnation of major attractions and than WDW hasn't been doing anything over the past few years

plenty of things have been done attractions, experiences, entertainment, offerings, etc. and plenty of things are in the works