Military Planes are Flying Over Disney Tonight

[Woody13]

Originally posted by no2apprentice
There's the flaw in your argument. Federal airspace is just that, under federal jurisdiction. Federal. Not civilian. Use of military forces to ensure security of federally maintained airspace is not a violation of Title 18 USC P1 CH67.

How about U.S. territorial waters? They are under federal jurisdiction. Federal. Not civilian. Yet the military can not ensure security or enforce law in U.S. territorial waters. That is what the U.S. Coast Guard does. They are not part of the U.S. military (except during wartime declared by Congress). They were part of the Department of Transportation and are now part of the Office of Homeland Security. They are part of U.S. civilian law enforcement and they're doing a great job! See the following link to see how it's legally done:

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/comrel/factfile/Factcards/PosseComitatus.html

 

[Mr D]

I would be more concerned if there wasn't a show of force, the country is really more of a red thread staus than orange right now.

I bet over at Shades of Green there a couple of hummers with anti-aircraft suppression, NBC (nuclear,bio, chem) sniffers, plus at least a squad of specialists.

 

[no2apprentice]

My point exactly, Woody. A federal agency is protecting federal jurisdiction. When FAA air traffic controllers become aware of distressed aircraft, suspicious aircraft, or possibly hostile aircraft, they are suppossed to report their information immediately to Air National Guard and the Air Force.

Who do you think is going to intercept hostile aircraft over the U.S.? Blue Thunder? Get real.

 

[Tramp]

USC TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 67 > Sec. 1385. |
Sec. 1385. - Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

This has to be one of the most misinterpreted, misunderstood and abused laws ever passed.

Anyone interested in broadening their knowledge of the law is referred to the following comprehensive article by Colonel John R. Brinkerhoff, US Army Retired:

http://www.homelanddefense.org/journal/articles/displayArticle.asp?article=30

Please try to understand that this is a law written 125 years ago following the Civil War when the US Army was brought to bear on citizens of this great country. "The Posse Comitatus Act does not prevent the military services from supporting the police, nor does it preclude them from enforcing the law when so ordered by the president. It does preclude them from being the police in normal times."

Whether you agree or disagree, let's pray that the decision to turn the weapons of those warplanes toward commercial aircraft NEVER comes.

 

[Woody13]

Originally posted by no2apprentice
Who do you think is going to intercept hostile aircraft over the U.S.? Blue Thunder? Get real.

There is a world of difference between a "federal agency" (civilian) and the military. The U.S. doesn't have the ability to identify hostile aircraft. The U.S. has now demanded international air carriers to use Air Marshals! That's the reality of the situation. Blue Thunder is fictional.

 

[Woody13]

Originally posted by Tramp
USC TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 67 > Sec. 1385. |
Sec. 1385. - Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

This has to be one of the most misinterpreted, misunderstood and abused laws ever passed.

Anyone interested in broadening their knowledge of the law is referred to the following comprehensive article by Colonel John R. Brinkerhoff, US Army Retired:

http://www.homelanddefense.org/journal/articles/displayArticle.asp?article=30

Please try to understand that this is a law written 125 years ago following the Civil War when the US Army was brought to bear on citizens of this great country. "The Posse Comitatus Act does not prevent the military services from supporting the police, nor does it preclude them from enforcing the law when so ordered by the president. It does preclude them from being the police in normal times."

Whether you agree or disagree, let's pray that the decision to turn the weapons of those warplanes toward commercial aircraft NEVER comes.

The entire idea behind this law is to prevent the U.S. from becoming a "banana republic". The U.S. has always attempted to keep its military forces in check. That is why the Commander in Chief is a civilian (at least, last time I checked he was). In world history, countries that maintain large standing armies often suffer from military coups. We must be very careful with the use of the military in our homeland. I'm on your side Tramp!

 

[no2apprentice]

Originally posted by Tramp
Whether you agree or disagree, let's pray that the decision to turn the weapons of those warplanes toward commercial aircraft NEVER comes.

Amen. I'll raise a glass to that (diet Pepsi, caffiene free).

Originally posted by Woody13
Blue Thunder is fictional.

Exactly. Civilian law enforcement has neither the equipment nor jurisdiction to handle problems in the air. No posse comitatus conflict.

And Happy New Year to all.

 

[Woody13]

Originally posted by no2apprentice
Exactly. Civilian law enforcement has neither the equipment nor jurisdiction to handle problems in the air. No posse comitatus conflict.

No. The jurisdiction and authority is written in U.S. law. The FAA runs the airspace, not the military. The FAA is civilian. Posse comitatus continues to be an issue because the FAA "grants" the military certain "restricted" airspace. The military is always subservient to civilian law by virtue of the Constitution of the United States.

As for civilian equipment to handle the threat, that gets politcal and is therefore out of bounds.

I'm on your side too!

 

[wannabeBelle]

I say let the military handle it. Frankly I am not terribly interested if this is legal or not, it is a great idea. Having that many freedom loving americans in one place is WAY too much for the terrorists to see and not try to strike at. Let's make it as hard as possible for them to destroy our way of life, not to mention the happiest place in the World!!!
And Tramp I couldnt agree with you more. Lets have a cheer and a prayer for all of the brave men and women in the military protecting us on this wonderful night!!
Belle

 

[prberk]

Look, I understand the arguments above and agree that use of the military for national security in events involving specific, large-scale nationally-relevant threats is entirely appropriate.

The Disney parks are national and sometimes international treasures that happen to attract large crowds. They are not political, but can be seen as symbolic by misguided terrorists.

It is right to protect them, just like other landmarks; and it is right to use the military as appropriate.

 

[Woody13]

Originally posted by prberk
Look, I understand the arguments above and agree that use of the military for national security in events involving specific, large-scale nationally-relevant threats is entirely appropriate.

Last time I checked, the U.S. military is not standing watch on the Mexican border to stop "events involving specific, large-scale nationally-relevant threats". Civilian law enforcement (U.S. Border Patrol (part of the Office of Homeland Security) among others) does that job. Posse comitatus.

Perhaps the War Powers Act of 1973 would apply?

 

[prberk]

I think that they would if specific threats or general intelligence indicated that concentrations of people met there and that it could be a target.. or if the civilian border patrol had reason to ask for it.

I comes down to basic national defense and decisions that have to be made, even if neither they nor the law are perfect in anticipating specific application.

 

[1disneydood]

Who would actually mind the planes there PROTECTING us and our families?

"I didn't mean to get us killed dear, but I just couldn't let those darn planes infringe on my space and disturb my perfect Disney sky. "

 

[mikedvcmember]

its not like the planes are flying 1000ft off the ground. they are way up in the air and i can tell you didnt hear them or see them


and yes it is a great idea to do anywhere there is going to be lots of people. if it wasnt for the media none of this would be a issue

 

[HennieBogan1966]

I agree with you Mike that if it weren't for the media......

But I think we could all agree that after Sept. 11th, these are not "normal times". Nor will they ever be again. And keep in mind, this was caused by terrorists ATTACKING US!!!!! Anything we can/should do to protect ourselves is a good thing. I for one welcome the protection, and am proud of our President for ordering it, and proud of the Military for protecting and serving.
I served 4 years in the U.S. Army, (Ft. Riley, KS) with the 1st Infantry Division. And unless you've served, you couldn't possibly understand the pride of the men/women who do, and the sacrifice they and their families make for us on a daily basis.

Now having said all of that, WHY are we arguing over some "law" as it relates to the federal/state/local level, and as to whom should be protecting us. Again, the rules were changed on Sept. 11th by those who would seek to destroy us and our way of life.

Those of you out there, (and you know who you are), need to get off this conspiracy theory trip. I'm not questioning anyone's patriotism. On the contrary, I'm glad you do care as much as you do. But the fact that you have the "right" to show your patriotism in the ways that you do should tell you something. It's people who don't believe that you should be allowed to express your views that we are fighting against. They don't believe in freedom, expression of values, patriotism, and religion ,(unless it's the religion of their choosing).

So I say that having all the Military Might that we can protecting us is the right way to go. THANK YOU to those of you out there who serve.

 

[MouseRight]

Has anyone above who is arguing whether or not this is proper or legal use of military froces even considered that these maneuvours/missions were probaly ordered by The Commander In Chief (I am willing to bet money on this one). Protecting the citizens (Let's remember they are protecting people, not the WDW infrastructure) of the USA from direct or perecived threats sounds like a good/proper/legal/improtant/(any more adjetives you want to add?) use of our military might.

As to those who think this will spoil the "Disney Magic" just think how spoiled it would forever be if an attack did happen (God Forbid). Times have changed and we need to trust the gov't and our military to protect us and do the right thing.

 

[Woody13]

Originally posted by MouseRight
Has anyone above who is arguing whether or not this is proper or legal use of military froces even considered that these maneuvours/missions were probaly ordered by The Commander In Chief (I am willing to bet money on this one). Protecting the citizens (Let's remember they are protecting people, not the WDW infrastructure) of the USA from direct or perecived threats sounds like a good/proper/legal/improtant/(any more adjetives you want to add?) use of our military might.

Hello MouseRight! You got me to remember that the President was an F-102 fighter pilot in the Texas National Guard. I checked the White House website and I found the authority that is being used. It's done via Presidential Directive! When a Homeland Security "Orange Level" is declared the President may then use "any National Guard or other appropriate armed forces organizations". Thanks for the input! Here's the appropriate information:

Homeland Security Presidential Directive-3

High Condition (Orange). A High Condition is declared when there is a high risk of terrorist attacks. In addition to the Protective Measures taken in the previous Threat Conditions, Federal departments and agencies should consider the following general measures in addition to the agency-specific Protective Measures that they will develop and implement:
Coordinating necessary security efforts with Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies or any National Guard or other appropriate armed forces organizations;
Taking additional precautions at public events and possibly considering alternative venues or even cancellation;
Preparing to execute contingency procedures, such as moving to an alternate site or dispersing their workforce; and
Restricting threatened facility access to essential personnel only.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020312-5.html

 

[MouseRight]

Originally posted by Woody13
Hello MouseRight! You got me to remember that the President was an F-102 fighter pilot in the Texas National Guard. I checked the White House website and I found the authority that is being used. It's done via Presidential Directive! When a Homeland Security "Orange Level" is declared the President may then use "any National Guard or other appropriate armed forces organizations". Thanks for the input! Here's the appropriate information:

Great research. Now that I won the bet, what do I get??

All kidding aside, I am proud of the work that our armed forces, national guards, police, firefighters, EMS, and anyone else who puts aside their private lives and fears to protect the rest of us. In the face of terrible events, these people are helping us to preserve our way of life. Thank you and God Speed.

 

[Tramp]

Originally posted by Tramp
Woody, where the hell have ya been? May I draw your attention to the Homeland Security Act of 2002?

...ah, hey Tramp...isn't that what YOU said almost 24 hours ago?



(Shut up and stop talking in the 3rd person, Tramp...ya old fart!)

 

[Woody13]

Hello Tramp. :wave: Thank you for pointing me in the right direction! Yes, it would seem logical for this power to be enumerated in the Homeland Security Act of 2002 or the War Powers Act of 1973 or the USA Patriot Act. That's why I was having such a devil of a time finding the authority because none of these Congressional acts gives the President that kind of power.

Until MouseRight steered me in the right direction, it hadn't dawned on me to check the various Presidential proclamations, declarations and executive orders. The authority the President used in this case is derived from
"Authorization for Use of Military Force Joint Resolution (Public Law 107-40, 115 Stat. 224) which was passed by Congress on September 18, 2001 (long before Homeland Security was made law). This is the law that gives the President the broad power and scope to use fighter jets to protect WDW.