Major DTD update

[FrankLapidus]

My mistake, I saw in one post him mention River Country and then in the next talk about something closing so put two and two together and came up with five.

 

[jt04]

74 was referring to 20000 leagues, not RC.

I remember him saying flat out that RC did not close due to health concerns of the guests.

 

[xdan0920]

My mistake, I saw in one post him mention River Country and then in the next talk about something closing so put two and two together and came up with five.

The thread got a bit disjointed in there, so I can see why you got them mixed up.

I remember him saying flat out that RC did not close due to health concerns of the guests.

I don't know if he did or not. I don't keep a log of all his posts. In this particular case, he was talking about 20k.

 

[jt04]

I don't know if he did or not. I don't keep a log of all his posts. In this particular case, he was talking about 20k.

Neither do I. I just never forget such declaritive statements. Including my own. Heh.

And he brought up RC as it is one of his favorite examples of TDO cutbacks a few posts ago (#147) so it seems relevant to this conversation. But I know what you mean.

 

[71jason]

But seriously... It's going to be a major shopping and entertainment district... Literally a "downtown" Disney.

Filled with ... what exactly? Third parties who didn't want to lease in PI or Hyperion Wharf? More Disney-operated plush and vinylmation outlets? Do you have specific examples?

And a note on parking: I tried to see a movie last weekend and there was not a single spot to be found.

The lot directly in front of the AMC does fill up on busy weekends, or for major midnight premiers. Next time, rather than risking it at TDO, I suggest taking entrance 5 (the one left of Cirque) and driving past Cirque and the bus stop. You'll find a theme park-sized parking lot with hundreds of empty spaces. There are pathways into West Side by either HoB or Cirque, it's at most a 5-minute walk to the AMC. (About the same as in CityWalk or even Pointe Orlando.)

 

[Ignohippo]

Why?

You have SS there? You have six DD hotels all within walking distance. As a frequent guest of the DD Hilton, it doesn't get any more convenient than that.

And adults only on WDW property just won't work. Period. That's one reason why PI isn't around, Disney never wants to tell you that you can't bring you brats anywhere. I am surprised that they haven't started letting them into the spas.

I disagree completely. The reason PI isn't around is because it was a roadblock between the two retail sections. As a poster said earlier, no one wants to bring little Johnny through a crowd of people who have been partying. PI has a place, but the way it was designed was a huge turnoff to anyone with families.

As for the hotels, the hotels in the DTD area certainly don't have a problem bringing in guests as it is now. Double or triple the size of DTD (and add some options for adults) and those hotels won't be able to keep up with the 10-20% increase in demand. And, as close as those are, I still wouldn't call them within walking distance for most people.

 

[xdan0920]

Filled with ... what exactly? Third parties who didn't want to lease in PI or Hyperion Wharf? More Disney-operated plush and vinylmation outlets? Do you have specific examples?



The lot directly in front of the AMC does fill up on busy weekends, or for major midnight premiers. Next time, rather than risking it at TDO, I suggest taking entrance 5 (the one left of Cirque) and driving past Cirque and the bus stop. You'll find a theme park-sized parking lot with hundreds of empty spaces. There are pathways into West Side by either HoB or Cirque, it's at most a 5-minute walk to the AMC. (About the same as in CityWalk or even Pointe Orlando.)

For what its worth...

Murph aka was on a twitter tirade yesterday talking about how the parking situation at DTD is actually becoming much worse. In fact, parking everywhere is getting way busier. He postersizes that the reason behind this is, less and less guests are using Magical Express. Because, more and more guests are opting to spend more and more time off property, thereby facilitating the need to have a car.

So Tim might be in the right here. Maybe the parking situation really is getting bad.

 

[Ignohippo]

The problem with "adult" entertainment is that you can't bring children through it. I wouldn't bring an eight year old to City Walk even to see a movie because it's been overrun by slutty teenagers. I'm ALL for a segregated adult/club area like the closed-gate days of PI but the average Disney family doesn't want to walk through a top-40 or hip-hop dance crowd going from the candy store to their AMC showing of Fuzzykins Goes to the Zoo.

I would agree with what you've said about PI completely, but would disagree about CityWalk. CityWalk succeeds because the crowds are dispersed throughout the area. The only area where partiers really congregate is the square behind Margaritaville, and that has been designed to be segregated away from the main area.

Adult entertainment could work at DTD, but only if it is spread throughout, rather than being in one area.

 

[Rasvar]

I remember him saying flat out that RC did not close due to health concerns of the guests.

The original concern was not guest health. It was operational cost and over capacity of water parks. But the reason it won't ever come back now is changed regulations on swimming area filtration needs and it would no longer be grandfathered in. Sorry still diversion.

I disagree completely. The reason PI isn't around is because it was a roadblock between the two retail sections. As a poster said earlier, no one wants to bring little Johnny through a crowd of people who have been partying. PI has a place, but the way it was designed was a huge turnoff to anyone with families.

I agree with this too a point. Where it really became a problem was the access to the Westside, so they thought it would be a good idea to just go back to ticketing by club and opening the walk ways to all. This was the original PI configuration that quickly got dropped. It really only made the issue worse. The bypass bridge that goes between CW and Planet Hollywood was for this. The problem is that it still had to go by the main PI entrance. PI was never really an issue until Westside was built. It was not the design of PI that caused the problem as much as the Westside. I always felt that a boardwalk from the Empress Lilly to Westside over Bay Lake would have been a better choice.

 

[Ignohippo]

I agree with this too a point. Where it really became a problem was the access to the Westside, so they thought it would be a good idea to just go back to ticketing by club and opening the walk ways to all. This was the original PI configuration that quickly got dropped. It really only made the issue worse. The bypass bridge that goes between CW and Planet Hollywood was for this. The problem is that it still had to go by the main PI entrance. PI was never really an issue until Westside was built. It was not the design of PI that caused the problem as much as the Westside. I always felt that a boardwalk from the Empress Lilly to Westside over Bay Lake would have been a better choice.

It never could have worked regardless. A bridge or pathway around PI is too far to walk for most people (without shops or something to distract them from the distance).

I agree, PI was really doomed once West Side was built. It would have been much better to have built West Side where they're talking about building the entertainment district now (in the parking lot south of PI). The current West Side site could have been parking for PI, the current West Side parking lot would have been parking for retail, the retail would have been congruent and the adult and retail areas would have been much better segregated.

 

[Mad Stitch]

It never could have worked regardless. A bridge or pathway around PI is too far to walk for most people (without shops or something to distract them from the distance).

I agree, PI was really doomed once West Side was built. It would have been much better to have built West Side where they're talking about building the entertainment district now (in the parking lot south of PI). The current West Side site could have been parking for PI, the current West Side parking lot would have been parking for retail, the retail would have been congruent and the adult and retail areas would have been much better segregated.

I agree, but the current layout makes better use of the lakefront property.

 

[GLaDOS]

It never could have worked regardless.

It worked for a decade+ before the gates were taken down from PI.

 

[fillerup]

Further to the above.
http://www.rcid.org/uploads/Intergovernmental Coordination Element.pdf

See in particular page 8B-5 indicating that Disney "has an agreement with the Florida Department of Transportation to purchase trips on Interstate -4 pursuant to a Joint Participation Agreement".

Thanks for this - but the wonkish side of me would love to know what "purchase trips on I-4" means.

Tim - OP, consider my skepticism seriously mitigated.

Now back to the discussion of PI.

 

[71jason]

For what its worth...

Murph aka was on a twitter tirade yesterday talking about how the parking situation at DTD is actually becoming much worse. In fact, parking everywhere is getting way busier. He postersizes that the reason behind this is, less and less guests are using Magical Express. Because, more and more guests are opting to spend more and more time off property, thereby facilitating the need to have a car.

So Tim might be in the right here. Maybe the parking situation really is getting bad.

Don't know Murph, don't know his background--I do know 12 years as a local gives you insight into an area even knowledgeable tourists often lack. Possible he doesn't know about the "secret" parking lot--the vast majority of guests don't. And that's not a slam, there's no real signage for it--I first learned about it through word of mouth. But as someone who still goes to DTD at least twice a week, I can tell you it's NEVER close to even half-full.

Interesting theory on the cars, but you would think the effect would be more pronounced at, say, MK. Driving past that lot 2 to 4 times a week this Summer, I can't say that's been the case. Even Fourth of July I don't think they had opened the farthest-most Villian lot. Wouldn't we be hearing about MK and DHS closing thier lots due to capacity more?

(For the record, I know fewer guests are using ME. However, most WDW lots were built for a different, pre-ME era, and are therefore so big that any bump in cars won't be all that noticeable. I think the boom in restaurants along West 192, as just one example, is far more telling.)

 

[DVCOwner]

Was that without the cost of land acquisition? If so.. wow.

The cost was $35K per parking space without land purchase.

 

[bunnyman]

It worked for a decade+ before the gates were taken down from PI.

Agree. I still think its heydey was back under the old ticketing system, when they used to have length of stay passes for hotel guests or other multi-day tickets that had "plusses" attached that you could use for Plesure Island. You had these extras to use, so it was no big deal to go to Pleasure Island and not pay the admission. Once they dropped the admission, and took away the outside stage, etc., crowds thinned. They also cut into their own base with the Boardwalk area that has the ESPN Zone and other clubs, and drew more people away.

 

[flynnibus]

maybe if Disney charged a reasonable amount for parking... people wouldn't be trying to hitch a ride from DTD

 

[71jason]

I agree, PI was really doomed once West Side was built. It would have been much better to have built West Side where they're talking about building the entertainment district now (in the parking lot south of PI).

The problem is the West Side was not originally geared toward children. Bongos, Puck, HoB, Cirque, Virgin, art galleries, a guitar store--it was clearly meant to be an adult counterpart to the Marketplace with its RFC and various toy stores, not to mention a CityWalk ripoff. But WDW lost thier nerve--or more likely couldn't find enough tenants--threw in DQ and the already waning PH and ended up making a confused jumble that still struggles to find its identity.

 

[flynnibus]

Murph aka was on a twitter tirade yesterday talking about how the parking situation at DTD is actually becoming much worse

Wow his tweets are even worse then his blog..

I just spent a few minutes reading his recent ones.. and wow.. I wish I had that time back. Really.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The problem is the West Side was not originally geared toward children. Bongos, Puck, HoB, Cirque, Virgin, art galleries, a guitar store--it was clearly meant to be an adult counterpart to the Marketplace with its RFC and various toy stores, not to mention a CityWalk ripoff. But WDW lost thier nerve--or more likely couldn't find enough tenants--threw in DQ and the already waning PH and ended up making a confused jumble that still struggles to find its identity.

I have said this before a number of times. The West Side is the proof that Pleasure Island was a success and that Disney wanted more. It was a shopping and dining expansion of Pleasure Island, not more of the Marketplace. That's why Pleasure Island blocking traffic between the two was not seen as a concern, because Pleasure Island was very much supposed to block those outside the targeted audience.