NoChesterHester
Well-Known Member
Such a success first time it was announced. Why not try again?
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Major DTD update
- Thread starter Tim_4
- Start date
Such a success first time it was announced. Why not try again?
RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
BIG SPIRITED CHANGE
menamechris
Well-Known Member
LOL, yes, yes. People didn't like the original Hyperion Wharf because it was too ambitious. Let's scale it down significantly and repitch it - THAT people will love...
RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
NoChesterHester
Well-Known Member
The irony here is that this thread is titled Major DTD update. Announce a scaled down Hyperion Warf and watch the interwebs ignite!
John
Well-Known Member
Isnt these the buzz words ("scaled down") of WDW these days, thats what we hear about any Carsland addition.
What happened to FLE. What I fear "scaled down" will mean is just a few new retail stores and a couple resturants and no new theme....no new overlay. A sprucing up of the PI area. It isnt any secret that TDO dosnt want to spend any money. There just isnt a big push to make DTD anything exciting. Its been almost four years since closing PI for goodness sake. I believe Splitsville is a nice addition, but that side of DTD was never an issue. That will just mean that side will just be even more crowded. Even Market place could use a little help.
The problem with all of this is, whatever is done to DTD is what we will have for some years to come.I believe TDO can not afford to swing and miss with this project. They really need to address the adult entertainment issue, this is another area where Uni has outplayed them.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Disney's Downtown Detroit makes for some nice aliteration.Apparently nobody understands the current theme of DTD, which is that of a not-too-distant future America after the economy further collapses leading to shuttered storefronts and empty buildings.
c-one
Well-Known Member
I just googled it. If they did remove it from the blog homepage, they did a poor job deleting it from the Internets at large. And one hopes that Disney is smart enough to realize there's not really any such thing as deleting something from the web.
PeterAlt
Well-Known Member
I've been holding off on this post for a few weeks in order to research this more to see if I could get any additional information that I could get for clues that could tie everything together. I did get a bunch of very solid clues, but I still have some big gaping holes that I'm not getting any information for, but I think I have enough to pieces to the puzzle to make a solid case with strong educated speculation based on actual long-dorminate plans, construction photos, satellite imagery, and logic.
A few weeks ago, I read about a plan proposed by Imagineering for a parking structure to be built in Lake Buena Vista on vacant land across the street from Downtown Disney and next to Team Disney. The parcel's southern edge borders I-4. The plan is to have direct access from the structure to I-4 via a proposed on-ramp entrance. The project is hold because of the complex approval and planning process that would most certainly be required as a result of the neccessary involvement of the Florida D.O.T.
When I first learned about this proposal, my first reaction was puzzlement as to why the Disney company would even want this. Direct parking off of I-4 does not make sense economically if the only thing within walking distance would be Downtown Disney. Then, it clicked. My mind added an element that the Imagineers may know and we don't. Monorail. When I considered this, suddenly, everything made sense, but I wanted to dig deeper and see if there were any clues out there to substantiate my theory.
When EPCOT Center first opened, I was there within months of its opening. I remember clearly the company's plans for the future were openly shown in the form of signs of art renderings in front of the lots of future attractions and inside a special exhib at Communicore East. Near this exhib at Communicore East, I remember, a boarded up space and a big posted on it proclaiming "Coming Soon: Tron Arcade" and art depicting a recreation of Flynn's Arcade from the movie. Around Future World, other signs announcing future attractions were at the Living Seas (exactly where it is today), Horizons (exactly where it was and where Mission: Space is today), a space dark ride was planned to go between Living Seas and The Land, and another sign for Life and Health (where it eventually got built, I think, but this was to be a dark ride). Also, Living Seas was supposed to be filled with special effects and have more dark ride elements.
Any way, all these plans were shown in detailed renderings at Communicore East. Other sketches were on display there too, such as a proposed Hollywood-themed movie ride and Equatorial Africa, Israel, and Spain for World Showcase, as well as a Rhine River ride for Germany and a Giza District for Japan. All that is besides the point, but the reason I am bringing this Communicore East exhib up is because it also showed a giant map of the Walt Disney World property and it was labeled "Master Plan". Keep in mind, this was 1982 and the Master Plan had been updated multitude times sinces then, but there was something on this plan that stood out and I will never forget. It showed a dotted line of a monorail line circling around Space Ship Earth and leaving EPCOT Center on the west side of Future World and looping to Walt Disney World Village Marketplace (Downtown Disney). I've been scratching my head, trying to pull up a photo memory of the route and I can't. I tried searching the Internet for copy of that Master Plan and no one has uploaded it (to my knowledge).
I did find an old Horizons rendering showing the proposed monorail cutting through the space between Universe of Energy, as well as satellite imagery showing a supposed pylon footer for that route buried west of Future World. I also learned that the EPCOT monorail station was designed to have multiple platforms for multiple lines, which is the reason for the long walkway ramp, as it was designed to be a platform for another line. I studied construction aerial photos of EPCOT construction and found what looks exactly like the buried monorail pylon footer west of Future World ALL OVER WORLD SHOWCASE, as well as "paths" connecting the buried west side footer, as well as a "path" of eastern footers trailing from behind Living Seas.
In 1967, Disney filed a Master Plan for Lake Buena Vista. It shows a path for a monorail line, as well as a circular route for a people mover system. This plan, as well as photos of scale models, can be found easily by searching the Internet. The plan also called for creating an intermodal transportation center, linking the LBV monorail with the LBV people mover. My thinking is that this plan certainly isn't dead, and probably lives on in revised form. My thoughts are, like in EPCOT, there are buried monorail pylon footers also in LBV. I examined satellite imagery of LBV along the pathway of the proposed 1967 monorail route, and, sure enough, I spotted rectangular shapes in the ground, buried at regular intervals, along the proposed monorail route.
Additionally, it is common knowledge that the Saratoga Springs Resort timeshare contract deliberately states that there is a monorail "easement" running through it. The contract says there are no current plans to expand the monorail, but basically says (in my own words) that if they ever do make plans you have been warned. People have generally interpreted "easement" as meaning "rights of way". I'm venturing to guess easement actually means buried foundations that are already in place (I.e. pylon footers). I tried to find a map showing where this easement is exactly within Saratoga Springs and can't find anything.
I also found an article on the Internet that says much of what I said above, but adds that trees have actually been cleared for proposed monorail routes. Looking at satellite imagery from Google Earth, I can see these clearings, and they do connect to the spots that I suspect are buried monorail footers. From my research, it looks like much of the extended monorail system is already in place, minus the actual pylons. Given the huge cost still required to "finish" building the proposed route(s), something like an intermodal monorail station connected to a parking garage with a direct I-4 on-ramp would be the perfect trigger that could move this project forward. People who park at this garage will be willing to pay a parking fee greater than that of theme park parking. The added revenue, in addition to covering the cost of building the garage and I-4 on-ramps, could also pay for the long-term cost of (at least partially) building the long-planned LBV monorail!
Please share your thoughts and share any additional you may have!
A few weeks ago, I read about a plan proposed by Imagineering for a parking structure to be built in Lake Buena Vista on vacant land across the street from Downtown Disney and next to Team Disney. The parcel's southern edge borders I-4. The plan is to have direct access from the structure to I-4 via a proposed on-ramp entrance. The project is hold because of the complex approval and planning process that would most certainly be required as a result of the neccessary involvement of the Florida D.O.T.
When I first learned about this proposal, my first reaction was puzzlement as to why the Disney company would even want this. Direct parking off of I-4 does not make sense economically if the only thing within walking distance would be Downtown Disney. Then, it clicked. My mind added an element that the Imagineers may know and we don't. Monorail. When I considered this, suddenly, everything made sense, but I wanted to dig deeper and see if there were any clues out there to substantiate my theory.
When EPCOT Center first opened, I was there within months of its opening. I remember clearly the company's plans for the future were openly shown in the form of signs of art renderings in front of the lots of future attractions and inside a special exhib at Communicore East. Near this exhib at Communicore East, I remember, a boarded up space and a big posted on it proclaiming "Coming Soon: Tron Arcade" and art depicting a recreation of Flynn's Arcade from the movie. Around Future World, other signs announcing future attractions were at the Living Seas (exactly where it is today), Horizons (exactly where it was and where Mission: Space is today), a space dark ride was planned to go between Living Seas and The Land, and another sign for Life and Health (where it eventually got built, I think, but this was to be a dark ride). Also, Living Seas was supposed to be filled with special effects and have more dark ride elements.
Any way, all these plans were shown in detailed renderings at Communicore East. Other sketches were on display there too, such as a proposed Hollywood-themed movie ride and Equatorial Africa, Israel, and Spain for World Showcase, as well as a Rhine River ride for Germany and a Giza District for Japan. All that is besides the point, but the reason I am bringing this Communicore East exhib up is because it also showed a giant map of the Walt Disney World property and it was labeled "Master Plan". Keep in mind, this was 1982 and the Master Plan had been updated multitude times sinces then, but there was something on this plan that stood out and I will never forget. It showed a dotted line of a monorail line circling around Space Ship Earth and leaving EPCOT Center on the west side of Future World and looping to Walt Disney World Village Marketplace (Downtown Disney). I've been scratching my head, trying to pull up a photo memory of the route and I can't. I tried searching the Internet for copy of that Master Plan and no one has uploaded it (to my knowledge).
I did find an old Horizons rendering showing the proposed monorail cutting through the space between Universe of Energy, as well as satellite imagery showing a supposed pylon footer for that route buried west of Future World. I also learned that the EPCOT monorail station was designed to have multiple platforms for multiple lines, which is the reason for the long walkway ramp, as it was designed to be a platform for another line. I studied construction aerial photos of EPCOT construction and found what looks exactly like the buried monorail pylon footer west of Future World ALL OVER WORLD SHOWCASE, as well as "paths" connecting the buried west side footer, as well as a "path" of eastern footers trailing from behind Living Seas.
In 1967, Disney filed a Master Plan for Lake Buena Vista. It shows a path for a monorail line, as well as a circular route for a people mover system. This plan, as well as photos of scale models, can be found easily by searching the Internet. The plan also called for creating an intermodal transportation center, linking the LBV monorail with the LBV people mover. My thinking is that this plan certainly isn't dead, and probably lives on in revised form. My thoughts are, like in EPCOT, there are buried monorail pylon footers also in LBV. I examined satellite imagery of LBV along the pathway of the proposed 1967 monorail route, and, sure enough, I spotted rectangular shapes in the ground, buried at regular intervals, along the proposed monorail route.
Additionally, it is common knowledge that the Saratoga Springs Resort timeshare contract deliberately states that there is a monorail "easement" running through it. The contract says there are no current plans to expand the monorail, but basically says (in my own words) that if they ever do make plans you have been warned. People have generally interpreted "easement" as meaning "rights of way". I'm venturing to guess easement actually means buried foundations that are already in place (I.e. pylon footers). I tried to find a map showing where this easement is exactly within Saratoga Springs and can't find anything.
I also found an article on the Internet that says much of what I said above, but adds that trees have actually been cleared for proposed monorail routes. Looking at satellite imagery from Google Earth, I can see these clearings, and they do connect to the spots that I suspect are buried monorail footers. From my research, it looks like much of the extended monorail system is already in place, minus the actual pylons. Given the huge cost still required to "finish" building the proposed route(s), something like an intermodal monorail station connected to a parking garage with a direct I-4 on-ramp would be the perfect trigger that could move this project forward. People who park at this garage will be willing to pay a parking fee greater than that of theme park parking. The added revenue, in addition to covering the cost of building the garage and I-4 on-ramps, could also pay for the long-term cost of (at least partially) building the long-planned LBV monorail!
Please share your thoughts and share any additional you may have!
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
The parking deck and off ramp plans have been discussed. The idea of expanding into the parking lot and trying to attraction more people seems like sufficiently valid and simpler explanation for its existence.
G00fyDad
Well-Known Member
IF Disney were really to be going through the motions of clearing land for this monorail extension, then permits would have been filed and we would have heard about it here first. Sorry, but it doesn't seem likely that they filed the permit in secret and nobody caught wind of it.
PeterAlt
Well-Known Member
Do you really need permits to clear a path of land? If you don't believe these clearings exist, check Google Earth or other satellite imagery yourself! They're there and have been cleared in recent years.
xdan0920
Think for yourselfer
Oye
devoy1701
Well-Known Member
those clearings are more likely just firebreaks incase brush fires breakout.
71jason
Well-Known Member
Sorry Peter Att, that's a well-written piece, but ultimately follow the money.
(1) A monorail from TTC to DTD would easily cost more than an entire new theme park--without any obvious new revenue to offset costs.
(2) The main riders on said monorail would be people looking to get out of WDW's $15 parking fees.
(1) A monorail from TTC to DTD would easily cost more than an entire new theme park--without any obvious new revenue to offset costs.
(2) The main riders on said monorail would be people looking to get out of WDW's $15 parking fees.
T'was Communicore West.
Footers were apparently buried in areas around FW, most likely between Life and Space (Energy and Horizons) since that was on the planned LBV route. Ive posted a plan of this in the past.
As of right now there are several plans for more transport. Monorail isn't one of them in the short term. Or any other term with a solid proposal.
Last plan for DTD parking structure I saw had no direct I-4 connection. The ECD slips would link to a new road that terminates at a signal onto BV Drive west of Team Disney.
It certainly is plausible. But could you provide any links or pictures to show this (yes I am lazy).
Just to lend credence to your supposition, consider the following:
Just to lend credence to your supposition, consider the following:
- Money is cheap right now (now is the opportune time to borrow money at low rates)
- Everyone says the cost of building new monorail beams and equipment is high, but compare that to the cost of building/rehabbing highway. I would argue that the cost per mile of highway vs monorail would be about the same. (In my neck of the woods NJ, the NJTA (NJ Turnpike Authority) allocated over $100M for "improvements" for a 4 mile stretch of road.) If Disney has a traffic flow issues (why they are building the parking garage) and want to eliminate the need for additional or larger roadways and buses this course of action would make sense.
flynnibus
Premium Member
An easement means the holder has the right to use the property for a purpose, without actually owning the property. Like the utility company may have an easement on your property to run utility lines through for your neighbors, but you still own the property. Doesn't infer anything more than that.. except for 'future planning' by Disney when they first started considering having outside deed holders (DVC).
The MaD Hatter
Well-Known Member
I'm convinced that there will never be any monorail expansion as long as Meg Crofton and the current TDO regime is in charge. After all, it took them almost 10 years to complete a resort that was already half built (i.e., Art of Animation). I'm also convinced that they have no idea what to do with DTD because none of the Blue Sky ideas fit the financial constraints TDO places on EVERYTHING! As we've seen since the closure of PI, if they can't do it cheap then they just don't do anything at all.