LucasLand Blue Sky Rumor @ DHS

[cheezbat]

And that brings up the question if whether this was the most effective use of $300 million for WDW, both in terms of ROI and in terms of addressing WDW's long-term problems. Sure, MK capacity and Fantasyland's wait times are problems for the resort, but are they the biggest problems? Some might argue that a Lucasland or Beastly Kingdom might go a lot further at addressing some of WDW's biggest issues )complaints of half-day parks, lack of rides at DHS, thematic coherence in DHS's backlot, lack of dark rides or things to do at night at AK) than FLE would.

All water under the bridge, of course. I'm still very happy WDW was willing to invest in the MK... I just hope they'll be equally happy if they don't get Potter-sized, gate-bursting numbers when they're finished.

And they won't. I'm pretty sure the MK is nearly tapped out when it comes to annual visitors.
I agree that the MK needed the expansion. The place is practically busy year-round. The problem is, they won't see a huge spike in ticket sales, merch, and food sales over this. The other parks are lacking. Big time. And we all know it. If they want to see more people visiting the parks and spending more money, they're gonna have to get it out of the other gates....or maybe even a new one, even though I agree I don't think that's the best idea since there are still half day parks in the WDW resort. More big time rides and memorable experiences at DHS, DAK and Epcot, and maybe they'll see what they're looking for.

 

[flavious27]

The problem is the capacity increase has to be two fold. An attraction like Expedition Everest if added to the Magic Kingdom isn't going to result in the same spike in attendance as it did in the Animal Kingdom.

If the next major addition is also to the Magic Kingdom I fear that the law of diminishing returns will have the bean counters afraid of investing in any of the other parks. For further clarification, I don't think $300 million spent at the Magic Kingdom will result in more guests than $300 million spent at any of the other three parks.

Well that goes without saying, but I think also that MK keeps knocking against its capacity as one of the main reason. Any kind of expansion that has a high price tag will need to add enough space to stop MK from having to close its gates due to capacity.

 

[George]

You are all right in your points (DAK and DHS could really use some love), MK is close to tapped out in yearly visitors, etc.

I think there may be something else at work here. Islands of Adventure is close to an exact analogue of Magic Kingdom. It has little or no edutainment component and is organized into whimsical "islands" as opposed to whimsical "lands." With the addition of WWoHP, adding things onto MK has more than a little keeping up with Joneses feel to it. Plus, I live in Indiana and I know of two different families in the last year who could only spend a couple of days visiting theme parks on recent trip Florida trips and they hit (in each case) IoA and EPCOT. I'm sure Disney doesn't like that.

 

[flavious27]

You are all right in your points (DAK and DHS could really use some love), MK is close to tapped out in yearly visitors, etc.

I think there may be something else at work here. Islands of Adventure is close to an exact analogue of Magic Kingdom. It has little or no edutainment component and is organized into whimsical "islands" as opposed to whimsical "lands." With the addition of WWoHP, adding things onto MK has more than a little keeping up with Joneses feel to it. Plus, I live in Indiana and I know of two different families in the last year who could only spend a couple of days visiting theme parks on recent trip Florida trips and they hit (in each case) IoA and EPCOT. I'm sure Disney doesn't like that.

But Meg said ...

MK can reach 20 million annual guests, but it would need to be enlarged so that capacity is not a problem in the peak season. But the other gates need the money for expansion first, they need to improve to 15 million each before MK gets a real expansion. With how tdo and wdpr treat wdw towards new projects, I doubt they will spend the necessary funds. We all have our ideas of what we want and where, but it seems fruitless with how every dollar needs to have a certain roi on it. If the same bean counters were around in 71, I doubt that we would have had the monorail built or the Polynesian.

 

[misterID]

I said this before, I'm glad WDW is getting any investment, but I don't understand (outside better park compacity) why they keep adding to MK, the one park that doesn't need any real expansion, especially now, and they're not investing in AK.

 

[AEfx]

Sure, MK capacity and Fantasyland's wait times are problems for the resort, but are they the biggest problems? Some might argue that a Lucasland or Beastly Kingdom might go a lot further at addressing some of WDW's biggest issues )complaints of half-day parks, lack of rides at DHS, thematic coherence in DHS's backlot, lack of dark rides or things to do at night at AK) than FLE would.

It depends on who's determining/who's POV what the "problems" are. The FLE was brilliant in a few ways (and not just because I agreed with it wholeheartedly, HAHA). If it was "needed" most is going to depend on how you look at it.

First, gotta remember that a lot of the issues we see with the parks aren't as much of a concern for most guests. Example, I think AK is a mess of a park - I think it needs at least 75% of the work DCA is getting, just in different areas. AK's placemaking is the best Disney has ever done (although I have not been there yet, I think judging from pictures it even outdoes TDS). The problem is with the attractions (and lack thereof) themselves.

However, just like it's crazy, embarrassing, and almost absurd to some of us fans that the Yeti hasn't been fixed for almost as long as the ride has been open, the reason it's sat there is because the average guest doesn't know any better. And while *I* find an AK park, they use the old MGM trick of staggering shows so it's hard to stack them - the morning show of FOLK gets out too late to make the morning show of Nemo, so you have to go see the afternoon show of Nemo, etc. So you spend more time in shops, eating, etc. and spending most of the (short operating hours) day. So, to them, AK may not be the priority.

*CONCEPTUALLY*, I'd argue that yes, FLE is indeed the #1 issue at WDW when looked at from a wider view. One I think Iger shares - which is why I'm starting to really like the guy. I was neutral when he took over, but I've got to say what he has said and the actions (most importantly) over the theme parks in terms of direction I gotta like him.

I've been saying this for five years - our Fantasyland is a joke compared to everyone else's since 20K left. Disneyland's has always had more rides, and theyhave always been superior in theme (in terms of exteriors) and have been updated over the years. At Disneyland, Fantasyland isn't a straight line. You feel like you are exploring a bit, when you find a new ride around the corner in - get this - an exterior actually themed to the ride! (Crazy, when you grow up with our Fantasyland, I know.)

Disneyland Paris got a lavish budget and pound for pound (I haven't been there, just relying on what others have said and the videos I've seen) are supposedly superior to their counterparts here, and TDL's were newer (though, again, haven't been there, but based on what we are getting it sounds like they will now be #4 in Fantasylands, taking our place).

To be honest, we're going from last to first in this race. We are getting 2 big dark rides that no other Fantasyland will have (yes, Mermaid is hitting DCA as well, but we are looking at this from a MK-park-to-park basis). We are getting a rather lavishly themed area after another absolute Disney classic that is pretty sparse in the parks and always been a notable omission (B&TB). One of the classic dark rides (and my #1 favorite ride of all time) is getting demolished - so it can be replaced by a new ride with the same theme/story. (Trust me, that's the ONLY reason I'm not organizing a campaign already to save it LOL - not that it would make a difference, but at least I'd have felt better haha.)

Once that's done, my guess is we'll finally see Pan go down for his way-way-overdo extended rehab (updated effects like other parks, new queue/loading system, etc.) once Fantasyland isn't so bleak. It's always been my favorite land, but I notice I spend little time there. Aside from the big seating area over by Mermaid, there isn't any place that I feel compelled to "hang out" or just slowly wander around exploring. It's hit Snow White - Pan (if I have a FP) - Philharmagic - Pooh - Maybe one more Snow White - and then I go on to another land/park. The only food place there is my least favorite on property (mainly because of bad childhood memories of getting a turkey burger there and biting into it thinking it was a real burger). There isn't even much in the way of shopping.

So I think overall, in the image of WDW - this is fantastic. And would honestly do more for WDW in terms of promotion (with all the classic characters involved - now you can dine with Belle and Beast in the castle! come and ride under the sea with the Little Mermaid! Meet all your favorite princesses in a storybook setting!) than a similar addition at Epcot, MGM, or even AK. It's also a source of pride - Disneyland is, well, Disneyland. Always will be. And though most people won't experience the overseas parks, the management of Disney has and I'm sure they are also tired (not the money, but the parks people) of seeing every other Fantasyland making ours look quaint.

So yeah, FLE is what WDW needed most right now. It's the most happy I've been about a project...ever. I was even happy when it was in it's first incarnation, but to get a new Snow White ride (and still be able to relive the old one by video) instead of that Fairy stuff is all right by me. And we keep downplaying the Meet & Greet portion (which was scaled back, but some of the original proposals for more intricate experiences could also come later), but it's going to be incredible placemaking when our Princesses finally have a somewhat natural place to be when they've been in a freaking (TEMPORARY!) Circus tent for a decade or two.

MK won't ever equal the amount of attractions at Disneyland, but the slightly chaoctic (in a good way) nature of their Fantasyland wasn't planned all at once like this is being. It just sort of happened as the park grew (giving it it's own charm). We very well could again be the flagship MK, should a few more things be updated as well as they are keeping Haunted Mansion up lately.

 

[AEfx]

Oh, I think I forgot this was the Lucasland thread, which I also support.

As stated previously, I think it should be next up on the block. Screw that Monsters, Inc. coaster - give me Star Wars and Indy. Or the Muppets. Enough already with the Pixar.

 

[RSoxNo1]

And that brings up the question if whether this was the most effective use of $300 million for WDW, both in terms of ROI and in terms of addressing WDW's long-term problems. Sure, MK capacity and Fantasyland's wait times are problems for the resort, but are they the biggest problems? Some might argue that a Lucasland or Beastly Kingdom might go a lot further at addressing some of WDW's biggest issues )complaints of half-day parks, lack of rides at DHS, thematic coherence in DHS's backlot, lack of dark rides or things to do at night at AK) than FLE would.

All water under the bridge, of course. I'm still very happy WDW was willing to invest in the MK... I just hope they'll be equally happy if they don't get Potter-sized, gate-bursting numbers when they're finished.

And they won't. I'm pretty sure the MK is nearly tapped out when it comes to annual visitors.
I agree that the MK needed the expansion. The place is practically busy year-round. The problem is, they won't see a huge spike in ticket sales, merch, and food sales over this. The other parks are lacking. Big time. And we all know it. If they want to see more people visiting the parks and spending more money, they're gonna have to get it out of the other gates....or maybe even a new one, even though I agree I don't think that's the best idea since there are still half day parks in the WDW resort. More big time rides and memorable experiences at DHS, DAK and Epcot, and maybe they'll see what they're looking for.

Well that goes without saying, but I think also that MK keeps knocking against its capacity as one of the main reason. Any kind of expansion that has a high price tag will need to add enough space to stop MK from having to close its gates due to capacity.

Just throwing this theory out there. The fact that the MK closes to capacity during peak seasons may have been the way this project was actually sold. That is undeniable evidence that they are leaving money on the table as the park is literally bursting at the seems.

First, gotta remember that a lot of the issues we see with the parks aren't as much of a concern for most guests. Example, I think AK is a mess of a park - I think it needs at least 75% of the work DCA is getting, just in different areas. AK's placemaking is the best Disney has ever done (although I have not been there yet, I think judging from pictures it even outdoes TDS). The problem is with the attractions (and lack thereof) themselves.

However, just like it's crazy, embarrassing, and almost absurd to some of us fans that the Yeti hasn't been fixed for almost as long as the ride has been open, the reason it's sat there is because the average guest doesn't know any better. And while *I* find an AK park, they use the old MGM trick of staggering shows so it's hard to stack them - the morning show of FOLK gets out too late to make the morning show of Nemo, so you have to go see the afternoon show of Nemo, etc. So you spend more time in shops, eating, etc. and spending most of the (short operating hours) day. So, to them, AK may not be the priority.

You bring up an excellent point about AK, but the DCA comparison is tough. For me DAK could use an investment 75% of the DCA investment (we'll just call it $750 million) more so than any other park, but I don't feel it needs it for the same reasons.

In addition to the reasons you mentioned re: "Why don't they fix the yeti?" I'd also argue that they simply can't afford it because the park is underbuilt.

While DCA esque theming issues exist in Dinorama, there are little to no theming issues anywhere else in the park. That doesn't mean that rides can't get upgrades, I'm speaking more in the generalities that led to compete overhauls of lands like in DCA.

What AK lacks is rides, and $750 million can go a long way to rectify that. If that's what you meant, I completely agree.

As for everything else in your post - I also agree with you about the need for a Fantasyland expansion. I think that as you said, the capacity issues will allow them to do a major refurbishment to Peter Pan, and I wouldn't be surprised if that coincides with the opening of the new Liberty Square walkway.

 

[flavious27]

It depends on who's determining/who's POV what the "problems" are. The FLE was brilliant in a few ways (and not just because I agreed with it wholeheartedly, HAHA). If it was "needed" most is going to depend on how you look at it.

First, gotta remember that a lot of the issues we see with the parks aren't as much of a concern for most guests. Example, I think AK is a mess of a park - I think it needs at least 75% of the work DCA is getting, just in different areas. AK's placemaking is the best Disney has ever done (although I have not been there yet, I think judging from pictures it even outdoes TDS). The problem is with the attractions (and lack thereof) themselves.

However, just like it's crazy, embarrassing, and almost absurd to some of us fans that the Yeti hasn't been fixed for almost as long as the ride has been open, the reason it's sat there is because the average guest doesn't know any better. And while *I* find an AK park, they use the old MGM trick of staggering shows so it's hard to stack them - the morning show of FOLK gets out too late to make the morning show of Nemo, so you have to go see the afternoon show of Nemo, etc. So you spend more time in shops, eating, etc. and spending most of the (short operating hours) day. So, to them, AK may not be the priority.

*CONCEPTUALLY*, I'd argue that yes, FLE is indeed the #1 issue at WDW when looked at from a wider view. One I think Iger shares - which is why I'm starting to really like the guy. I was neutral when he took over, but I've got to say what he has said and the actions (most importantly) over the theme parks in terms of direction I gotta like him.

I've been saying this for five years - our Fantasyland is a joke compared to everyone else's since 20K left. Disneyland's has always had more rides, and theyhave always been superior in theme (in terms of exteriors) and have been updated over the years. At Disneyland, Fantasyland isn't a straight line. You feel like you are exploring a bit, when you find a new ride around the corner in - get this - an exterior actually themed to the ride! (Crazy, when you grow up with our Fantasyland, I know.)

Disneyland Paris got a lavish budget and pound for pound (I haven't been there, just relying on what others have said and the videos I've seen) are supposedly superior to their counterparts here, and TDL's were newer (though, again, haven't been there, but based on what we are getting it sounds like they will now be #4 in Fantasylands, taking our place).

To be honest, we're going from last to first in this race. We are getting 2 big dark rides that no other Fantasyland will have (yes, Mermaid is hitting DCA as well, but we are looking at this from a MK-park-to-park basis). We are getting a rather lavishly themed area after another absolute Disney classic that is pretty sparse in the parks and always been a notable omission (B&TB). One of the classic dark rides (and my #1 favorite ride of all time) is getting demolished - so it can be replaced by a new ride with the same theme/story. (Trust me, that's the ONLY reason I'm not organizing a campaign already to save it LOL - not that it would make a difference, but at least I'd have felt better haha.)

Once that's done, my guess is we'll finally see Pan go down for his way-way-overdo extended rehab (updated effects like other parks, new queue/loading system, etc.) once Fantasyland isn't so bleak. It's always been my favorite land, but I notice I spend little time there. Aside from the big seating area over by Mermaid, there isn't any place that I feel compelled to "hang out" or just slowly wander around exploring. It's hit Snow White - Pan (if I have a FP) - Philharmagic - Pooh - Maybe one more Snow White - and then I go on to another land/park. The only food place there is my least favorite on property (mainly because of bad childhood memories of getting a turkey burger there and biting into it thinking it was a real burger). There isn't even much in the way of shopping.

So I think overall, in the image of WDW - this is fantastic. And would honestly do more for WDW in terms of promotion (with all the classic characters involved - now you can dine with Belle and Beast in the castle! come and ride under the sea with the Little Mermaid! Meet all your favorite princesses in a storybook setting!) than a similar addition at Epcot, MGM, or even AK. It's also a source of pride - Disneyland is, well, Disneyland. Always will be. And though most people won't experience the overseas parks, the management of Disney has and I'm sure they are also tired (not the money, but the parks people) of seeing every other Fantasyland making ours look quaint.

So yeah, FLE is what WDW needed most right now. It's the most happy I've been about a project...ever. I was even happy when it was in it's first incarnation, but to get a new Snow White ride (and still be able to relive the old one by video) instead of that Fairy stuff is all right by me. And we keep downplaying the Meet & Greet portion (which was scaled back, but some of the original proposals for more intricate experiences could also come later), but it's going to be incredible placemaking when our Princesses finally have a somewhat natural place to be when they've been in a freaking (TEMPORARY!) Circus tent for a decade or two.

MK won't ever equal the amount of attractions at Disneyland, but the slightly chaoctic (in a good way) nature of their Fantasyland wasn't planned all at once like this is being. It just sort of happened as the park grew (giving it it's own charm). We very well could again be the flagship MK, should a few more things be updated as well as they are keeping Haunted Mansion up lately.

I hope that they would work on the rest of FL, put in pavers and some more trees and vegetation. I know that they will demo the skyway station to expand the bathrooms and add a new path, but that building should be saved and reused because of how well it is themed.

 

[flavious27]

Oh, I think I forgot this was the Lucasland thread, which I also support.

As stated previously, I think it should be next up on the block. Screw that Monsters, Inc. coaster - give me Star Wars and Indy. Or the Muppets. Enough already with the Pixar.

Well disney has to get some use out of the 6 billion they paid jobs. pixar has made some very memorable movies in the last 15 years, but there needs to be balance with how much is used. I really hope that tdo does not add a carsland because that takes away a reason to see dlr, I also don't think that it will fit in at dhs.

I do think that up can be used in MK rather well. Ratatouille would make sense if disney added a Parisian themed resort. The underlining themed of Wall E would fit in well at WOL and or the land.

When disney adds pixar franchises, I hope that they do the classic disney way and not the six flags way.

 

[flavious27]

Just throwing this theory out there. The fact that the MK closes to capacity during peak seasons may have been the way this project was actually sold. That is undeniable evidence that they are leaving money on the table as the park is literally bursting at the seems.



You bring up an excellent point about AK, but the DCA comparison is tough. For me DAK could use an investment 75% of the DCA investment (we'll just call it $750 million) more so than any other park, but I don't feel it needs it for the same reasons.

In addition to the reasons you mentioned re: "Why don't they fix the yeti?" I'd also argue that they simply can't afford it because the park is underbuilt.

While DCA esque theming issues exist in Dinorama, there are little to no theming issues anywhere else in the park. That doesn't mean that rides can't get upgrades, I'm speaking more in the generalities that led to compete overhauls of lands like in DCA.

What AK lacks is rides, and $750 million can go a long way to rectify that. If that's what you meant, I completely agree.

As for everything else in your post - I also agree with you about the need for a Fantasyland expansion. I think that as you said, the capacity issues will allow them to do a major refurbishment to Peter Pan, and I wouldn't be surprised if that coincides with the opening of the new Liberty Square walkway.

I think 750 for dak would be enough to add SA and beastly island, but I would rather see them spend 1 billion between dak and dhs. Adding just SA would be enough for the next 5 years at dak, it would also allow them to develop plans to push the hours deeper into the night and test the ways to block off the back portion of the park past 5 or 6.

 

[NoChesterHester]

What AK lacks is rides, and $750 million can go a long way to rectify that. If that's what you meant, I completely agree.

HUGE numbers are always thrown around on this site, but does anyone have any insight as to their validity. I remember hearing that the whole Fantasyland Expansion cost in the neighborhood of $300 million. That is an astounding number by traditional development standards anywhere else in the world.

Here is a real world example; in Memphis, Tennessee $20 million can build a quarter city block five story apartment building, plus underground parking deck. A similar project in Atlanta costs around $25 million while in Madison, Wisconsin expect to spend about $17 million. (Hard construction numbers only, no soft costs.)

So... the point of my post is to ask if anyone can shed any light on this subject. How far does Disney money go? What does $10 million do? $60 mil? $100 mil? I think what skews these numbers is that they spend an exorbitant amount on intellectual development of each project and they wrap that into the "cost."

 

[flavious27]

HUGE numbers are always thrown around on this site, but does anyone have any insight as to their validity. I remember hearing that the whole Fantasyland Expansion cost in the neighborhood of $300 million. That is an astounding number by traditional development standards anywhere else in the world.

Here is a real world example; in Memphis, Tennessee $20 million can build a quarter city block five story apartment building, plus underground parking deck. A similar project in Atlanta costs around $25 million while in Madison, Wisconsin expect to spend about $17 million. (Hard construction numbers only, no soft costs.)

So... the point of my post is to ask if anyone can shed any light on this subject. How far does Disney money go? What does $10 million do? $60 mil? $100 mil? I think what skews these numbers is that they spend an exorbitant amount on intellectual development of each project and they wrap that into the "cost."

Well amusement park construction is going to have a different set of costs than normal construction.

There are higher costs for the development of the ride if a ride system has to be invented or re-imagined for the attraction. This is part of why EE cost $100 million to build but also Disney attractions cost more because of the amount of theming that they put into every attraction.

 

[NoChesterHester]

Well amusement park construction is going to have a different set of costs than normal construction.

There are higher costs for the development of the ride if a ride system has to be invented or re-imagined for the attraction. This is part of why EE cost $100 million to build but also Disney attractions cost more because of the amount of theming that they put into every attraction.

Right, I understand that. I was hoping for someone to expand on the figures a bit.

I just laugh when people throw around these huge numbers without flinching. While I'm not surprised at some of the figures, I think we all get desensitized to just how much it costs to do some of these things. I also think some get really inflated by fans.

 

[RSoxNo1]

What happens is that Imagineering has an unbelievable ability to spend money. Concept Art, Design, Models, etc. An attraction like Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey cost less for Universal than Expedition Everest cost for Disney.

 

[AEfx]

You bring up an excellent point about AK, but the DCA comparison is tough. For me DAK could use an investment 75% of the DCA investment (we'll just call it $750 million) more so than any other park, but I don't feel it needs it for the same reasons.

In addition to the reasons you mentioned re: "Why don't they fix the yeti?" I'd also argue that they simply can't afford it because the park is underbuilt.

While DCA esque theming issues exist in Dinorama, there are little to no theming issues anywhere else in the park. That doesn't mean that rides can't get upgrades, I'm speaking more in the generalities that led to compete overhauls of lands like in DCA.

I think we completely agree. I maybe could word it better - I think AK needs almost as much (75%) of the work that DCA does/is getting - but in different ways.

Much of DCA's is about theming and placemaking. AK needs that same level of funding/attention on attractions.

After DCA, it's easily the US park in need of the most love.

 

[flavious27]

Right, I understand that. I was hoping for someone to expand on the figures a bit.

I just laugh when people throw around these huge numbers without flinching. While I'm not surprised at some of the figures, I think we all get desensitized to just how much it costs to do some of these things. I also think some get really inflated by fans.

Well I would say that any disney attraction will cost atleast 50% more than what other parks will do when themed and 75% more than just the ride on a concrete pad.

When we look at the prices, E tickets are going to start at like 80 or 85 million. C and D tickets are going to be like 45 to 80 or 85. A and B tickets are anything from 45 million and below.

Because it is not out direct money going to build these attractions, the numbers are set to our kind of reality.

 

[flavious27]

I think we completely agree. I maybe could word it better - I think AK needs almost as much (75%) of the work that DCA does/is getting - but in different ways.

Much of DCA's is about theming and placemaking. AK needs that same level of funding/attention on attractions.

After DCA, it's easily the US park in need of the most love.

what about river country?

 

[AEfx]

what about river country?

LOL, of parks that are still with us, to be even more specific.

 

[flavious27]

LOL, of parks that are still with us, to be even more specific.

well then, DQ is the park that needs the most work to be revamped.