Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Dranth]

Disney is blaming DAS for its failed Genie+ and ILL. Why not? Everyone else does.

If you totally eliminated DAS, the wait times would be just as bad.

They would only be just as bad if Disney increased the amount of G+ inventory equivalent to the drop in DAS abusers (and sold the increased inventory). If not, it would be better as there would be less people in the LL lines keeping standby from moving.

 

[BalooChicago]

If a ride closes that you have a DAS return time for, and it stays closed when it gets close to your DAS return time, your DAS return time converts into an anytime fast pass for that or similar tier attractions and you can immediately pull a new DAS return time somewhere else.

When our Remy reservation was cancelled the other day we got an anytime pass, and tried to use it at Test Track, but they said we couldn’t use it at Test Track, Soarin, or Frozen. I was like “So Gran Fiesta then?” the CM laughed (she was very nice about it). So it’s not necessarily similar tier.

 

[Disney Dad 3000]

Longish post incoming...

There are two problems here that share a single solution: (a) people without a valid disability using DAS to obtain an advantage over other guests (i.e. by abusing the system), (b) people with a valid disability using DAS to obtain an advantage over other guests (i.e. by using the system the way it’s currently designed).

In theory, DAS is not meant to give disabled guests an extra advantage, but only to remove the disadvantage caused by their disability.

I'm glad you posted this, because I felt like there were a number of competing arguments about DAS (in a Genie+ thread no less) and what the abuse actually was. As someone that has used DAS with my niece, I think the system itself, works as it should. Is there an advantage? Yes (though it is not always perfect at what it does), but that's intended and the reason for the system.

I think (?) many can agree the abuse lies in the number of users and whether a valid need or not. That obviously is a slippery slope, but one that should be reviewed. Speaking anecdotally, I can say the number of guests included on a DAS primary's group can be above what is supposed to be the maximum. I've seen it at both Guest Services and at attractions when the allotment (should be 6 including the primary) either slightly or well exceeds that on every trip I've accompanied my niece. This obviously doesn't help LL queue time.

Tying this back into Genie+....

1. Remove the 2 Pre-bookings from DAS. When Genie+ adds the ability to pre-book 1 per day this year, I would mirror that with DAS, but to me, that capability and feature should match
2. DAS users should not use Genie+ (controversial maybe), but I think it should be an either or and guests should pick one "skip the line" option of the two if eligible for both
3. You cannot limit DAS users who have a pass in 45 min for Peter Pan from waiting in a 10 min standby line for Dumbo, that argument just seems odd to me

DAS has been very helpful for my niece and her family, but I will tell you, if they are with me in the parks for a day, they typically do not use DAS and utilize Genie+ instead. An experienced Genie+ user (IMO), is generally going to have more success pulling shorter return times in succession than a DAS user relying on the posted wait times before they can ride something with the LL. There are always exceptions with high demand attractions or hard to obtain Genie+ of course.

I 100% understand the discourse with the lines for Lightning Lane that encompass Genie+, DAS, etc. In Genie+ case, it's a paid service, and now there's even more of an expectation which I think went way over the heads at TWDC. Seeing extended LL lines for Peter Pan, Slinky, BTM etc. shouldn't be a shocker though especially on a crappy throughput ride like PPF. Any high demand ride that goes down for any extended period of time, this happens, and happened when FastPass was around.

Bottom line to me with Genie+ and the Lightning Lane itself is, the parks have done a woeful job of increasing attraction capacity to match attendance, maintenance/downtime issues get exacerbated for both Standby and LL, I'm not privy to LL sales, but I don't get the impression they are capped as much as they should, and of course the DAS issues noted. Working on one of these isn't enough.

 

[jpeden]

DAS is well known within Disney to be massively abused. The entire program has been under a massive review, and DAS is seen as the biggest issue negatively impacting LL and standby wait times. Expect to see changes.

I'm really stumped by why people think there isn't rampant abuse. Let's look at a list of SOME of the things covered by the ADA:

Physical or mental impairments include, but are not limited to: visual, speech, and hearing impairments; mental
retardation, emotional illness, and specific learning disabilities; cerebral palsy; epilepsy; muscular dystrophy;
multiple sclerosis; orthopedic conditions; cancer; heart disease; diabetes; and contagious and noncontagious
diseases such as tuberculosis and HIV disease (whether symptomatic or asymptomatic)

Now, many of these present legitimate reasons as to why someone can't wait in a queue. But as with all diseases/medical issues there are degrees of complications, staging, etc. For example, if you looked at me you'd never know that I had something that was listed here (I'm a T2 Diabetic). HOWEVER, my T2 is in remission, I take zero medications, and 95% of the time if you took my glucose at a random point in the day you couldn't even diagnose me as a T2. But, that doesn't change the fact that I'm a T2 diabetic and that if I asked my doctor for a letter stating I had diabetes, she'd absolutely provide me one. Is that dishonest? Not in the slightest. I am a Type 2 Diabetic. Does it in any way affect the way I visit theme parks - not in the slightest.

Nothing about my condition prevents me from standing in a line, but if I wanted to I could easily make the case to DAS that I had Diabetes and qualified for DAS, and therefore probably manage pretty well by avoiding paying for G+. My mom has both heart disease and diabetes but nothing prevents her from standing in line either.

My point being, there are a ton of folks that have conditions that qualify them for DAS but they never felt the need to use it because they probably didn't really need it. Now that Disney charges for something that has historically been free, it should come as no surprise that a large group of folks are looking for a way to keep that historical thing (or a version of it) free instead of forking out an additional $100/day for their family of four - and the reality is no cast member wants a complaint in their file about arguing that someone's disability didn't meet the criteria for DAS so I'd imagine the vast majority are approved (it would be interesting to know the actual percentage of approved vs. denied applications but I'm sure that will never be released).

Moving to a third-party like Universal where the medical condition is validated by a panel of medical experts is the right move in my opinion.

 

[pdude81]

Longish post incoming...



I'm glad you posted this, because I felt like there were a number of competing arguments about DAS (in a Genie+ thread no less) and what the abuse actually was. As someone that has used DAS with my niece, I think the system itself, works as it should. Is there an advantage? Yes (though it is not always perfect at what it does), but that's intended and the reason for the system.

I think (?) many can agree the abuse lies in the number of users and whether a valid need or not. That obviously is a slippery slope, but one that should be reviewed. Speaking anecdotally, I can say the number of guests included on a DAS primary's group can be above what is supposed to be the maximum. I've seen it at both Guest Services and at attractions when the allotment (should be 6 including the primary) either slightly or well exceeds that on every trip I've accompanied my niece. This obviously doesn't help LL queue time.

Tying this back into Genie+....

1. Remove the 2 Pre-bookings from DAS. When Genie+ adds the ability to pre-book 1 per day this year, I would mirror that with DAS, but to me, that capability and feature should match
2. DAS users should not use Genie+ (controversial maybe), but I think it should be an either or and guests should pick one "skip the line" option of the two if eligible for both
3. You cannot limit DAS users who have a pass in 45 min for Peter Pan from waiting in a 10 min standby line for Dumbo, that argument just seems odd to me

DAS has been very helpful for my niece and her family, but I will tell you, if they are with me in the parks for a day, they typically do not use DAS and utilize Genie+ instead. An experienced Genie+ user (IMO), is generally going to have more success pulling shorter return times in succession than a DAS user relying on the posted wait times before they can ride something with the LL. There are always exceptions with high demand attractions or hard to obtain Genie+ of course.

I 100% understand the discourse with the lines for Lightning Lane that encompass Genie+, DAS, etc. In Genie+ case, it's a paid service, and now there's even more of an expectation which I think went way over the heads at TWDC. Seeing extended LL lines for Peter Pan, Slinky, BTM etc. shouldn't be a shocker though especially on a crappy throughput ride like PPF. Any high demand ride that goes down for any extended period of time, this happens, and happened when FastPass was around.

Bottom line to me with Genie+ and the Lightning Lane itself is, the parks have done a woeful job of increasing attraction capacity to match attendance, maintenance/downtime issues get exacerbated for both Standby and LL, I'm not privy to LL sales, but I don't get the impression they are capped as much as they should, and of course the DAS issues noted. Working on one of these isn't enough.

Mostly agree with your post, but #2 is a non-starter. They can't tell people that because they are disabled and get DAS to skip standby lines that they are now unable to pay for the same services as others. The only real solution is to more carefully vet those looking for DAS passes.

 

[bmr1591]

Disney is blaming DAS for its failed Genie+ and ILL. Why not? Everyone else does.

If you totally eliminated DAS, the wait times would be just as bad.

Big disagree.

 

[Disney Dad 3000]

Mostly agree with your post, but #2 is a non-starter. They can't tell people that because they are disabled and get DAS to skip standby lines that they are now unable to pay for the same services as others. The only real solution is to more carefully vet those looking for DAS passes.

Totally get that, and agree to an extent that someone should be able to pay for the service. I think I only brought that up as an option as I would not be shocked if those that were abusing access to DAS were also in turn utilizing G+. Maybe not. As you said though, ultimately getting a handle on legitimate users who have a need is a primary concern.

 

[James Alucobond]

1. Remove the 2 Pre-bookings from DAS. When Genie+ adds the ability to pre-book 1 per day this year, I would mirror that with DAS, but to me, that capability and feature should match
2. DAS users should not use Genie+ (controversial maybe), but I think it should be an either or and guests should pick one "skip the line" option of the two if eligible for both
3. You cannot limit DAS users who have a pass in 45 min for Peter Pan from waiting in a 10 min standby line for Dumbo, that argument just seems odd to me

I actually think 3 is completely reasonable, and fixing that would remove the need to make change 2. If DAS is a proxy for standing in a queue, it should act like standing in a queue as far as ride utilization goes. You shouldn’t be able to tap into other rides.

 

[Splash4eva]

DAS is well known within Disney to be massively abused. The entire program has been under a massive review, and DAS is seen as the biggest issue negatively impacting LL and standby wait times. Expect to see changes.

I hope you are correct bc people who need it can still get it people who dont will not… its funny tho now they want to do something bc its hurting a revenue stream not to make the guest experience any better. And FTR i still think lines will be long and this will have a minimal impact on wait times where guests will still be complaining. Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Disstevefan1]

No, they wouldn’t.

Perhaps slightly lower wait times but nothing that would help the failed Genie+ and ILL system.

 

[Purduevian]

Listen as a DAS user am i at an “advantage” when it comes to rides yes and i would say ive also fine tuned the best way to use the system as well to maximize my day. I get the point of DAS is to “equal” the playing field for guests w/ no disabilities & people feel DAS users have an advantage but to me some do and others dont it all depends. Just like everything else. To limit DAS because people feel they are at an advantage is silly. I will say this tho and they probably cant bc of legal but i would limit 1 ride per day maybe 2 max. And im guilty of riding things multiple times via DAS

I feel like you contradicted yourself in one post. If the point of DAS is to equal the playing field and you agree current DAS gives and advantage, why wouldn't you adjust/limit it to match?

List of advantages I can think of with my proposed solution:

Advantage	Proposed solution.
Pre-booking 2 rides	Eliminate it, there is no non-DAS equivalent. Encourages abuse.
Enjoying non-attraction experience was waiting for a DAS return time	Do nothing, allow the DAS users to enjoy the park, eat, shop ect. Logistical nightmare to try to fix
Enjoying an attraction via standby while waiting for a DAS return time	Do nothing. Logistical nightmare to try to fix without facial recognition at each standby line
Redeem a G+ LL while waiting for a DAS return time	Utilize the app to disallow making a DAS return time that completely overlaps a currently made G+ return time. Also disallow making a G+ return time that is completely overlapped by a current DAS return time. Finally disallow redeeming that G+ LL return time while still waiting for the DAS return time. Basically treat the DAS return time like a standby line when it comes to G+

 

[Disstevefan1]

Tweaking DAS to improve Genie+ and ILL is the equivalent of adding the electrical tape lines on the seats of MMRR to increase the ride's capacity!

Wait, I take it back, the tape did a better job.

 

[Brian]

Utilize the app to disallow making a DAS return time that completely overlaps a currently made G+ return time. Also disallow making a G+ return time that is completely overlapped by a current DAS return time.
Finally disallow redeeming that G+ LL return time while still waiting for the DAS return time.

Basically treat the DAS return time like a standby line when it comes to G+

A non-disabled guest can wait in a standby line while they wait for their next G+ return time. Why should a truly disabled guest (not an abuser of the system) not be able to hold a simultaneous G+ and DAS return time, when you consider that DAS is their way of waiting in a standby line (due to their inability to do so), and G+ is benefit they paid for just like a non-disabled guest. Your proposed solution would create an inequity between the disabled and non-disabled guest by reducing the value a disabled guest can derive from G+ when compared to the non-disabled guest.

Also, keep in mind that LL selections are typically for an hour return window, while DAS return times are a return anytime after a specific time (current time + current wait time - 5).

 

[Purduevian]

Tweaking DAS to improve Genie+ and ILL is the equivalent of adding the electrical tape lines on the seats of MMRR to increase the ride's capacity!

Wait, I take it back, the tape did a better job.

It really depends on how much of these changes will affect the amount of people in the LL line. If there is a large reduction in people utilizing the LL Disney will have 2 choices.
1) Allow more people from Standby on the ride
2) Allocate more G+ to a ride (thus creating better availability for LL return times).

 

[Splash4eva]

I feel like you contradicted yourself in one post. If the point of DAS is to equal the playing field and you agree current DAS gives and advantage, why wouldn't you adjust/limit it to match?

List of advantages I can think of with my proposed solution:

Advantage	Proposed solution.
Pre-booking 2 rides	Eliminate it, there is no non-DAS equivalent. Encourages abuse.
Enjoying non-attraction experience was waiting for a DAS return time	Do nothing, allow the DAS users to enjoy the park, eat, shop ect. Logistical nightmare to try to fix
Enjoying an attraction via standby while waiting for a DAS return time	Do nothing. Logistical nightmare to try to fix without facial recognition at each standby line
Redeem a G+ LL while waiting for a DAS return time	Utilize the app to disallow making a DAS return time that completely overlaps a currently made G+ return time. Also disallow making a G+ return time that is completely overlapped by a current DAS return time. Finally disallow redeeming that G+ LL return time while still waiting for the DAS return time. Basically treat the DAS return time like a standby line when it comes to G+

I already have stated that the2 pre booked rides to me are not needed but why would anyone refuse them if they are eligible. I choose to Buy Genie not a free service which is perfectly allowed. I qualify for DAS. So i somehwat get what you are saying but imo there is some “hate” to people who use DAS unless its a visible one or one that slows people down…

 

[James Alucobond]

I already have stated that the2 pre booked rides to me are not needed but why would anyone refuse them if they are eligible.

No one is saying people shouldn’t use the services for which they are eligible, but every unique advantage offered to DAS users both goes against the intent of the system and makes it more attractive to would-be abusers.

 

[Splash4eva]

Perhaps slightly lower wait times but nothing that would help the failed Genie+ and ILL system.

Exactly& lets face it. Any significant extra inventory they have they will definitely be selling those as well on Genie. Now Genie has not sold out often so it could be a non event but if DAS abusers want similar access they will 100% be paying for Genie

 

[Splash4eva]

No one is saying people shouldn’t use the services for which they are eligible, but every unique advantage offered to DAS users both goes against the intent of the system and makes it more attractive to would-be abusers.

Listen. We can agree to disagree. If someone is eligible for DAS and buys Genie they should be able to use both as they want. Im not saying that as a DAS user im saying it as a common sense who cares pov…
May i add i would 100% get rid of the 2 pre booked rides they give me. You wanna give one great 2 is unneccessary

 

[lentesta]

Len seems to be guided very specifically by data. So when he gives us numbers, we know he has a team of people paid to count or measure those numbers. It's not a "feels like" temperature

I mean, Disney said in court - and was unchallenged in saying it - that GAC (the pre-DAS program) guests comprised 3% of park guest and accounted for 30% of ride capacity on popular attractions. Nobody has to believe anything I say.

I could be wrong, so check my math here:

• DHS averaged around 27,120 guests per day in 2012 [cite]
• 3% of 27,170 guests is 815 guests
• The hourly capacity of Toy Story Mania in 2012 was around 1,100 / hour (the third track was added in 2016 [cite])
  Here's why I think it's 1,100 in the real world - we've counted the number of people exiting the ride over time:
  
  
  
  
• Let's assume DHS was open 12 hours per day in 2012.
  • That's 1,100 guests/hour x 12 hours = 13,200 guests that can ride per day
• 30% of that daily capacity for GAC use is 3,960 guests using GAC on that ride per day
• 3,960 GAC uses divided by 815 GAC guests is 4.86 uses per GAC guest

So using 2012 Toy Story Mania as an example, every GAC guest accounted for 4.86 rides on Toy Story Mania.

So it's possible to make that math work if every GAC guest had with them 3.86 people with them on average, for every ride.

How likely is that to happen just based on Florida tourism demographics?

A 2022 report from Visit Florida [link] - the state's tourism office - says that 51% of Florida tourists have no kids (the Affluent Mature at 17% + Moderate Mature at 20% + Young & Free at 14% = 51%)

Let's assume those no-kid families are all two-person families, because the numbers would look more unlikely if they were 1-person units.

And let's assume that GAC use is evenly distributed across those segments. I don' think it is - I think it's skewed older, which means ... fewer kids and smaller families. But again, let's play it safe because the math looks worse otherwise.

So if half of GAC guests are two-person units, what's the average size of the other 49% of GAC users, if the overall average is 4.86 people per GAC use?

Here's the equation to solve:

(0.51 x 2) + (X * 0.49) = 4.86
which is 1.02 + 0.49X = 4.86
which is 0.49X = (4.86 - 1.02)
which is 0.49X = 3.84
which is X = (3.84 / 0.49)
which gives X = 7.84 people per GAC group

The "soft limit" for GAC/DAS party size is 6, but it's up to the ride CM's discretion [cite].

Let's play it safe - because the numbers are more unlikely if we don't - and say that every CM approved every 7+-person group for GAC.

So it's possible for 3% of GAC guests legitimately to use 30% of a ride's capacity only if the average GAC family with kids had just under 8 people.

That seems ... unlikely. So what other explanations are there?

 

[James Alucobond]

Exactly& lets face it. Any significant extra inventory they have they will definitely be selling those as well on Genie. Now Genie has not sold out often so it could be a non event but if DAS abusers want similar access they will 100% be paying for Genie

There isn’t DAS “inventory” for them to shift around. They assume a certain level of usage upfront. The problem is that it seems to be utilized far beyond what they calculate as a reasonable mix.

Listen. We can agree to disagree. If someone is eligible for DAS and buys Genie they should be able to use both as they want. Im not saying that as a DAS user im saying it as a common sense who cares pov…
May i add i would 100% get rid of the 2 pre booked rides they give me. You wanna give one great 2 is unneccessary

I didn’t say you shouldn’t be able to use DAS and Genie+ together. That was someone else. I said that when DAS goes far beyond reasonable accommodations into the territory of distinct advantages that you can’t get anywhere else even with a paid service, it will obviously become a target for abuse.