Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[bmr1591]

If Genie+ had more availability where rides didn’t sell out as quick, people wouldn’t feel as aggravated by it. The app itself is fine and most people longing for the days of physical FastPass would decry Disney for not using today’s technology if they still did physical. They just need to make it where when you purchase Genie+, you can get to the rides you want to get to. It’s silly that you get a choice between Rat and Frozen in EPCOT because the other will be sold out by the time your second selection becomes available.

 

[Purduevian]

I already have stated that the2 pre booked rides to me are not needed but why would anyone refuse them if they are eligible. I choose to Buy Genie not a free service which is perfectly allowed. I qualify for DAS. So i somehwat get what you are saying but imo there is some “hate” to people who use DAS unless its a visible one or one that slows people down…

1. I'm in the camp of use every within the system available to you. If I or a party member needed DAS I would use/abuse the system to the best of my ability within the current rule set
   1. I think Disney needs to close these loopholes/advantages so people can't use/abuse the system like that
2. DAS should absolutely be able to buy and use G+, but I don't think DAS users should get to utilize G+ in a way that is not possible for non-DAS guests
   1. Again if I was on DAS I would use/abuse this all day, I think Disney needs to close this loophole
3. I think DAS is a wonderful thing for those that need it. My problem with the current system is that it gives multiple advantages that are not available to non-DAS users. A Disney World day is a 0 sum game, for every person that gets an advantage on a ride, one person gets disadvantage (or many people feel a smaller disadvantage).

If the current DAS system was only minorly affect park operations/ G+ I really wouldn't have any issue with it. However multiple sources have said that they current system is affecting the parks.

 

[UNCgolf]

They could perhaps have a carve out for literal walk-ons (like shows and flat rides with open seats), but not for short waits, since you’d still be increasing the wait times for people in line (an extra 1 min in a short line vs an extra 1 min in a long line both consume 1 min of your time)

The problem here is that that's totally dependent on Disney's posted wait times -- and often anything with a 20 minute or less wait actually is a walk-on. I don't see any reason to refuse to let them ride something like Nemo or the Little Mermaid that's dispatching numerous empty vehicles just because it has a supposed 15 minute wait.

I do agree that it's an unfair advantage if they can have a DAS for one ride and then jump into a 50 minute standby line for another. I suppose the only real way to stop that is to prevent them from boarding any other attraction, regardless of wait. That still feels a little silly, but it might be the only workable solution.

 

[Purduevian]

I mean, Disney said in court - and was unchallenged in saying it - that GAC (the pre-DAS program) guests comprised 3% of park guest and accounted for 30% of ride capacity on popular attractions. Nobody has to believe anything I say.

I could be wrong, so check my math here:

• DHS averaged around 27,120 guests per day in 2012 [cite]
• 3% of 27,170 guests is 815 guests
• The hourly capacity of Toy Story Mania in 2012 was around 1,100 / hour (the third track was added in 2016 [cite])
  Here's why I think it's 1,100 in the real world - we've counted the number of people exiting the ride over time:
  View attachment 771556
  
• Let's assume DHS was open 12 hours per day in 2012.
  • That's 1,100 guests/hour x 12 hours = 13,200 guests that can ride per day
• 30% of that daily capacity for GAC use is 3,960 guests using GAC on that ride per day
• 3,960 GAC uses divided by 815 GAC guests is 4.86 uses per GAC guest

So using 2012 Toy Story Mania as an example, every GAC guest accounted for 4.86 rides on Toy Story Mania.

So it's possible to make that math work if every GAC guest had with them 3.86 people with them on average, for every ride.

How likely is that to happen just based on Florida tourism demographics?

A 2022 report from Visit Florida [link] - the state's tourism office - says that 51% of Florida tourists have no kids (the Affluent Mature at 17% + Moderate Mature at 20% + Young & Free at 14% = 51%)

View attachment 771557

Let's assume those no-kid families are all two-person families, because the numbers would look more unlikely if they were 1-person units.

And let's assume that GAC use is evenly distributed across those segments. I don' think it is - I think it's skewed older, which means ... fewer kids and smaller families. But again, let's play it safe because the math looks worse otherwise.

So if half of GAC guests are two-person units, what's the average size of the other 49% of GAC users, if the overall average is 4.86 people per GAC use?

Here's the equation to solve:

(0.51 x 2) + (X * 0.49) = 4.86
which is 1.02 + 0.49X = 4.86
which is 0.49X = (4.86 - 1.02)
which is 0.49X = 3.84
which is X = (3.84 / 0.49)
which gives X = 7.84 people per GAC group

The "soft limit" for GAC/DAS party size is 6, but it's up to the ride CM's discretion [cite].

Let's play it safe - because the numbers are more unlikely if we don't - and say that every CM approved every 7+-person group for GAC.

So it's possible for 3% of GAC guests legitimately to use 30% of a ride's capacity only if the average GAC family with kids had just under 8 people.

That seems ... unlikely. So what other explanations are there?

Did the old GAC allow rerides? I know it would be near impossible to make assumptions, but it was the most popular ride in the park.

 

[Jrb1979]

I hope you are correct bc people who need it can still get it people who dont will not… its funny tho now they want to do something bc its hurting a revenue stream not to make the guest experience any better. And FTR i still think lines will be long and this will have a minimal impact on wait times where guests will still be complaining. Just my thoughts on the matter.

It's not about making waits shorter. The whole point is to get guests out of LL queues. It's why availability for most attractions runs out so quickly

 

[Brian]

I do agree that it's an unfair advantage if they can have a DAS for one ride and then jump into a 50 minute standby line for another. I suppose the only real way to stop that is to prevent them from boarding any other attraction, regardless of wait. That still feels a little silly, but it might be the only workable solution.

It is definitely a problem and unethical, but I don't think there's a practical solution to it. Adding touchpoints to the standby entrance would create logjams larger than what's seen at LL entrances due to fumbling around for the admission media, and it would create an inconvenience for the vast majority of guests who don't have DAS, to the point that I would strongly suspect they'd consider it a non-starter.

The only real solution I see is adding layers of scrutiny to the application process.

 

[doctornick]

Question: does usage of the LL line via DAS (as opposed to G+) affect the number of G+ slots "released"? Like, does the system rattle down releasing and offering future G+ slots in a given day because there has been significant LL usage by non-Genie+ users earlier in the day?

 

[Bastet]

How much difference in assistance pass usage is there at Universal since they changed?

 

[doctornick]

The only real solution I see is adding layers of scrutiny to the application process.

Well, I think there are other answers that can also cut down on abuse by making the benefits less appealing (while still retaining it as an appropriate accommodation). It's already been mentioned in this thread about removing or reducing (to 1) the number of pre-books allowed via DAS. They could also reduce the party size allowed that gets to ride with one DAS.

 

[Brian]

Well, I think there are other answers that can also cut down on abuse by making the benefits less appealing (while still retaining it as an appropriate accommodation). It's already been mentioned in this thread about removing or reducing (to 1) the number of pre-books allowed via DAS. They could also reduce the party size allowed that gets to ride with one DAS.

Removing the pre-books makes a lot of sense, and I believe it's part of the changes coming.

 

[Splash4eva]

There isn’t DAS “inventory” for them to shift around. They assume a certain level of usage upfront. The problem is that it seems to be utilized far beyond what they calculate as a reasonable mix.

I didn’t say you shouldn’t be able to use DAS and Genie+ together. That was someone else. I said that when DAS goes far beyond reasonable accommodations into the territory of distinct advantages that you can’t get anywhere else even with a paid service, it will obviously become a target for abuse.

If someone does NOT buy Genie how does DAS go far beyond reasonable accommodations. The 2 pre booked rides? Which may i add you only get if you a do a video call and i assure you its not like you are getting your time and choice of what ride you want (like i said its excellent addition which is not needed) but to say DAS is beyond reasonable is to me an incorrect assumption of DAS.

 

[BalooChicago]

How much difference in assistance pass usage is there at Universal since they changed?

I’ve never looked into going to Universal; Disneyland Paris requires that up apply for a “priority card” in advance. I’d welcome the change. Having to justify my son’s disability at the start of each trip is no fun, and stresses him out (and we have a vastly different experience each time). Our most recent trip was the smoothest (WDW - on plane on our way home) and our prior trip (DL last spring) our worst. My son even remembers the CMs name from DL!

 

[Splash4eva]

It's not about making waits shorter. The whole point is to get guests out of LL queues. It's why availability for most attractions runs out so quickly

Without added capacity wait times are going nowhere. I will stand on that hill. Unless of course less and less people keep going.

 

[Splash4eva]

1. I'm in the camp of use every within the system available to you. If I or a party member needed DAS I would use/abuse the system to the best of my ability within the current rule set
   1. I think Disney needs to close these loopholes/advantages so people can't use/abuse the system like that
2. DAS should absolutely be able to buy and use G+, but I don't think DAS users should get to utilize G+ in a way that is not possible for non-DAS guests
   1. Again if I was on DAS I would use/abuse this all day, I think Disney needs to close this loophole
3. I think DAS is a wonderful thing for those that need it. My problem with the current system is that it gives multiple advantages that are not available to non-DAS users. A Disney World day is a 0 sum game, for every person that gets an advantage on a ride, one person gets disadvantage (or many people feel a smaller disadvantage).

If the current DAS system was only minorly affect park operations/ G+ I really wouldn't have any issue with it. However multiple sources have said that they current system is affecting the parks.

We shall see what changes are made that people keep alluding to thats some big secret and if that has any impact on operations. They canned all these 3rd party vendors who were abusing the systems supposedly yet ive seen no visible change to people complaining

 

[Disstevefan1]

I mean, Disney said in court - and was unchallenged in saying it - that GAC (the pre-DAS program) guests comprised 3% of park guest and accounted for 30% of ride capacity on popular attractions. Nobody has to believe anything I say.

I could be wrong, so check my math here:

• DHS averaged around 27,120 guests per day in 2012 [cite]
• 3% of 27,170 guests is 815 guests
• The hourly capacity of Toy Story Mania in 2012 was around 1,100 / hour (the third track was added in 2016 [cite])
  Here's why I think it's 1,100 in the real world - we've counted the number of people exiting the ride over time:
  View attachment 771556
  
• Let's assume DHS was open 12 hours per day in 2012.
  • That's 1,100 guests/hour x 12 hours = 13,200 guests that can ride per day
• 30% of that daily capacity for GAC use is 3,960 guests using GAC on that ride per day
• 3,960 GAC uses divided by 815 GAC guests is 4.86 uses per GAC guest

So using 2012 Toy Story Mania as an example, every GAC guest accounted for 4.86 rides on Toy Story Mania.

So it's possible to make that math work if every GAC guest had with them 3.86 people with them on average, for every ride.

How likely is that to happen just based on Florida tourism demographics?

A 2022 report from Visit Florida [link] - the state's tourism office - says that 51% of Florida tourists have no kids (the Affluent Mature at 17% + Moderate Mature at 20% + Young & Free at 14% = 51%)

View attachment 771557

Let's assume those no-kid families are all two-person families, because the numbers would look more unlikely if they were 1-person units.

And let's assume that GAC use is evenly distributed across those segments. I don' think it is - I think it's skewed older, which means ... fewer kids and smaller families. But again, let's play it safe because the math looks worse otherwise.

So if half of GAC guests are two-person units, what's the average size of the other 49% of GAC users, if the overall average is 4.86 people per GAC use?

Here's the equation to solve:

(0.51 x 2) + (X * 0.49) = 4.86
which is 1.02 + 0.49X = 4.86
which is 0.49X = (4.86 - 1.02)
which is 0.49X = 3.84
which is X = (3.84 / 0.49)
which gives X = 7.84 people per GAC group

The "soft limit" for GAC/DAS party size is 6, but it's up to the ride CM's discretion [cite].

Let's play it safe - because the numbers are more unlikely if we don't - and say that every CM approved every 7+-person group for GAC.

So it's possible for 3% of GAC guests legitimately to use 30% of a ride's capacity only if the average GAC family with kids had just under 8 people.

That seems ... unlikely. So what other explanations are there?

Are we saying DAS groups are an average of 6, 7 or 8 folks?

 

[Jrb1979]

Without added capacity wait times are going nowhere. I will stand on that hill. Unless of course less and less people keep going.

Standby will always be very long. That won't change. I agree that adding more capacity is the only way that changes.

That's not what I'm saying. If they cut down on the amount of people using the LL queue, than those that do buy Genie+ would have more availability. That's what the goal should be. Who cares if standby is 2 hours long. I can accept that. What I can't accept is paying for something and top attractions running out of availability by noon.

 

[Splash4eva]

I mean, Disney said in court - and was unchallenged in saying it - that GAC (the pre-DAS program) guests comprised 3% of park guest and accounted for 30% of ride capacity on popular attractions. Nobody has to believe anything I say.

I could be wrong, so check my math here:

• DHS averaged around 27,120 guests per day in 2012 [cite]
• 3% of 27,170 guests is 815 guests
• The hourly capacity of Toy Story Mania in 2012 was around 1,100 / hour (the third track was added in 2016 [cite])
  Here's why I think it's 1,100 in the real world - we've counted the number of people exiting the ride over time:
  View attachment 771556
  
• Let's assume DHS was open 12 hours per day in 2012.
  • That's 1,100 guests/hour x 12 hours = 13,200 guests that can ride per day
• 30% of that daily capacity for GAC use is 3,960 guests using GAC on that ride per day
• 3,960 GAC uses divided by 815 GAC guests is 4.86 uses per GAC guest

So using 2012 Toy Story Mania as an example, every GAC guest accounted for 4.86 rides on Toy Story Mania.

So it's possible to make that math work if every GAC guest had with them 3.86 people with them on average, for every ride.

How likely is that to happen just based on Florida tourism demographics?

A 2022 report from Visit Florida [link] - the state's tourism office - says that 51% of Florida tourists have no kids (the Affluent Mature at 17% + Moderate Mature at 20% + Young & Free at 14% = 51%)

View attachment 771557

Let's assume those no-kid families are all two-person families, because the numbers would look more unlikely if they were 1-person units.

And let's assume that GAC use is evenly distributed across those segments. I don' think it is - I think it's skewed older, which means ... fewer kids and smaller families. But again, let's play it safe because the math looks worse otherwise.

So if half of GAC guests are two-person units, what's the average size of the other 49% of GAC users, if the overall average is 4.86 people per GAC use?

Here's the equation to solve:

(0.51 x 2) + (X * 0.49) = 4.86
which is 1.02 + 0.49X = 4.86
which is 0.49X = (4.86 - 1.02)
which is 0.49X = 3.84
which is X = (3.84 / 0.49)
which gives X = 7.84 people per GAC group

The "soft limit" for GAC/DAS party size is 6, but it's up to the ride CM's discretion [cite].

Let's play it safe - because the numbers are more unlikely if we don't - and say that every CM approved every 7+-person group for GAC.

So it's possible for 3% of GAC guests legitimately to use 30% of a ride's capacity only if the average GAC family with kids had just under 8 people.

That seems ... unlikely. So what other explanations are there?

Unless i missed something in your explanation. Where do you or Disney state the number of DAS/GAC users that have abused the system? Im not trying to be snarky at all. Im genuinely curious.

 

[Splash4eva]

Standby will always be very long. That won't change. I agree that adding more capacity is the only way that changes.

That's not what I'm saying. If they cut down on the amount of people using the LL queue, than those that do buy Genie+ would have more availability. That's what the goal should be. Who cares if standby is 2 hours long. I can accept that. What I can't accept is paying for something and top attractions running out of availability by noon.

Listen i agree with you regarding paying for something that seems to be a cr@ppy system. I can only go by my experience. Ive used it with great success shockingly after my 1st visit. Ive been for 10 days late August into Labor Day. Ive gone the other 2 times for 10 days during Thanksgiving week starting the Friday prior and this last Thanksgiving from Tues - Sun. I will say that i was able to obtain almost everything i wanted via Genie. (TP drops helped me along with some refreshing) I definitely felt i was able to get my moneys worth

 

[Touchdown]

How much difference in assistance pass usage is there at Universal since they changed?

I noticed a huge difference when it changed. EP pass lines shrunk by more then 50%.

 

[Jrb1979]

Listen i agree with you regarding paying for something that seems to be a cr@ppy system. I can only go by my experience. Ive used it with great success shockingly after my 1st visit. Ive been for 10 days late August into Labor Day. Ive gone the other 2 times for 10 days during Thanksgiving week starting the Friday prior and this last Thanksgiving from Tues - Sun. I will say that i was able to obtain almost everything i wanted via Genie. (TP drops helped me along with some refreshing) I definitely felt i was able to get my moneys worth

I have heard similar from other people. For my family if we are paying for a fast pass system no matter the park, we want to be able to ride things more than once, get more than 10 attractions with it per day and not have to refresh the app to get a time that fits our schedule.

As far as the whole DAS thing. IMO there is 2 things they can do that would help immensely. First would be limit the amount of guests that can ride with person using to DAS to 4.

The other is DAS can't have a Genie+ return time at the same time. For example if you book Peter Pan through DAS and the wait time is an hour, you can't have Genie+ attraction with a return time in that hour.