Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Fido Chuckwagon]

When our Remy reservation was cancelled the other day we got an anytime pass, and tried to use it at Test Track, but they said we couldn’t use it at Test Track, Soarin, or Frozen. I was like “So Gran Fiesta then?” the CM laughed (she was very nice about it). So it’s not necessarily similar tier.

It is similar tier they just don't consider Remy to be the same tier. You CAN use it at Remy again back when it opens, and at other rides as well, so it is a very generous system. By comparison, someone actually waiting in the Remy line when it goes down gets nothing unless they are right in the front when it happens. It therefore goes far beyond a "reasonable accomodation" designed to put the DAS user on a level playing field with a non DAS user.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I mean, Disney said in court - and was unchallenged in saying it - that GAC (the pre-DAS program) guests comprised 3% of park guest and accounted for 30% of ride capacity on popular attractions. Nobody has to believe anything I say.

I could be wrong, so check my math here:

• DHS averaged around 27,120 guests per day in 2012 [cite]
• 3% of 27,170 guests is 815 guests
• The hourly capacity of Toy Story Mania in 2012 was around 1,100 / hour (the third track was added in 2016 [cite])
  Here's why I think it's 1,100 in the real world - we've counted the number of people exiting the ride over time:
  View attachment 771556
  
• Let's assume DHS was open 12 hours per day in 2012.
  • That's 1,100 guests/hour x 12 hours = 13,200 guests that can ride per day
• 30% of that daily capacity for GAC use is 3,960 guests using GAC on that ride per day
• 3,960 GAC uses divided by 815 GAC guests is 4.86 uses per GAC guest

So using 2012 Toy Story Mania as an example, every GAC guest accounted for 4.86 rides on Toy Story Mania.

So it's possible to make that math work if every GAC guest had with them 3.86 people with them on average, for every ride.

How likely is that to happen just based on Florida tourism demographics?

A 2022 report from Visit Florida [link] - the state's tourism office - says that 51% of Florida tourists have no kids (the Affluent Mature at 17% + Moderate Mature at 20% + Young & Free at 14% = 51%)

View attachment 771557

Let's assume those no-kid families are all two-person families, because the numbers would look more unlikely if they were 1-person units.

And let's assume that GAC use is evenly distributed across those segments. I don' think it is - I think it's skewed older, which means ... fewer kids and smaller families. But again, let's play it safe because the math looks worse otherwise.

So if half of GAC guests are two-person units, what's the average size of the other 49% of GAC users, if the overall average is 4.86 people per GAC use?

Here's the equation to solve:

(0.51 x 2) + (X * 0.49) = 4.86
which is 1.02 + 0.49X = 4.86
which is 0.49X = (4.86 - 1.02)
which is 0.49X = 3.84
which is X = (3.84 / 0.49)
which gives X = 7.84 people per GAC group

The "soft limit" for GAC/DAS party size is 6, but it's up to the ride CM's discretion [cite].

Let's play it safe - because the numbers are more unlikely if we don't - and say that every CM approved every 7+-person group for GAC.

So it's possible for 3% of GAC guests legitimately to use 30% of a ride's capacity only if the average GAC family with kids had just under 8 people.

That seems ... unlikely. So what other explanations are there?

This is great, thank you. Do you have any sense of whether the 3/30 numbers from 2012 still hold true today? It seems like there is more incentive to abuse the system now than then. In 2012 fastpasses were free and the parks were less crowded. Your recent haunted mansion count sure makes it seem like a lot more than 30 percent of the lightning lane capacity was going to things other than genie+ reservations at least.

 

[Drdcm]

Unless i missed something in your explanation. Where do you or Disney state the number of DAS/GAC users that have abused the system? Im not trying to be snarky at all. Im genuinely curious.

It’s implied by the math. If 3% if guests get DAS, than you would expect 3% to take up ride capacity since the system is apparently the same thing as waiting in standby. The numbers don’t show that, they’re taking 30%. Therefore DAS users are taking up a disproportionate amount of ride capacity. That can only be done if 1) they are using the system differently than intended or 2) they routinely bring 8-10 other people with them when they ride.

I don’t have a opinion on this. Just explaining the thought process. Len can jump in to correct me if came to the wrong conclusions.

 

[SamusAranX]

I actually think 3 is completely reasonable, and fixing that would remove the need to make change 2. If DAS is a proxy for standing in a queue, it should act like standing in a queue as far as ride utilization goes. You shouldn’t be able to tap into other rides.

And again, how do they enforce that? By scanning everyone into the standby line as well? You think lines are long now, just you wait

 

[James Alucobond]

And again, how do they enforce that? By scanning everyone into the standby line as well? You think lines are long now, just you wait

I’m not saying it’s feasible logistically, just that it would be, to my mind, a perfectly sensible implementation given what DAS is “supposed” to do.

 

[el_super]

The other is DAS can't have a Genie+ return time at the same time. For example if you book Peter Pan through DAS and the wait time is an hour, you can't have Genie+ attraction with a return time in that hour.

That doesn't work if DAS is used as a replacement for, or analog to, standby lines. If a regular guest is allowed to have a Genie+ reservation, and then hop into a standby line, then a guest utilizing DAS also needs the same accommodation.

It could *maybe* work if there was a way to limit standby access from *everyone* that had a Genie+ reservation. Eliminate standby entirely.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I actually think 3 is completely reasonable, and fixing that would remove the need to make change 2. If DAS is a proxy for standing in a queue, it should act like standing in a queue as far as ride utilization goes. You shouldn’t be able to tap into other rides.

We were a DAS family of three for a decade until under the new system we do not quality even though the person needing it is much worse today.

Having said that. If you have DAS, you should not be also using Genie+.

I think anyone and everyone should be able to purchase ILLs (while they last) if they choose.

 

[nickys]

An alternative - though I don't think it would be worth it to pursue this nor would there necessarily be the space - would be to have people who check in for their DAS wait in a room at the ride where they can sit/be in air condition rather than have to be in line. But this would prevent them from going and doing something else as an alternative to waiting in line (the "waiting in two lines at once" issue). Universal has such rooms in their queues for rider switch purposes.

2. Open and staff a large lounge or lounges in the park with facilities, food services, TVs and plenty of seats. Make it so only CMs in that location could book DAS for you and require parties to remain on site in the lounge until their time is called.

So you’d force someone with PTSD or Autism to wait in a Lounge, a confined space by definition, when that could well be a trigger for them?

Every person with a disability is different. A waiting room might be perfect for some, and hell on earth for others.

 

[Brian]

So you’d force someone with PTSD or Autism to wait in a Lounge, a confined space by definition, when that could well be a trigger for them?

Every person with a disability is different. A waiting room might be perfect for some, and hell on earth for others.

Not to mention that they would be sitting there and not spending any money.

 

[nickys]

Not to mention that they would be sitting there and not spending any money.

That too, but I’m more concerned with their welfare.

 

[SamusAranX]

In the end, the ONLY thing that is for certain going to fix abuse is if Disney uses a 3rd party provider like UOR.

They could also make it so you must do an interview with someone licensed to do prior to attending. And for guests who come onsite without doing so, lack of planning on their part shouldn’t constitute an emergency on WDW’s part, but given the legalities, perhaps having onsite employees from the vendor and/or legally able to conduct an interview will help, and perhaps widen proof to include prescription proof rather then a doctors note if applicable (for example, if you have type 2 diabetes but no note, it’s easy to login into your pharmacy apps and show the medications you currently are on for said condition. Having a list of medications matched to their conditions used for onsite with the interviewers would be needed).

Disney has to decide if extra cost to make these kinds of changes is worth it or not.

 

[lentesta]

This is great, thank you. Do you have any sense of whether the 3/30 numbers from 2012 still hold true today? It seems like there is more incentive to abuse the system now than then. In 2012 fastpasses were free and the parks were less crowded. Your recent haunted mansion count sure makes it seem like a lot more than 30 percent of the lightning lane capacity was going to things other than genie+ reservations at least.

I don't have updated numbers. To your point, there's now an extra financial incentive to get DAS. I would not be surprised if 30% is now the low end for some attractions.

 

[lentesta]

Are we saying DAS groups are an average of 6, 7 or 8 folks?

I think - and I could be wrong - that tor the math to work in a way that indicates normal, not-being-abused DAS usage, I think half of the groups using DAS would have to be around 8 people. Which doesn't seem likely, just based on the average US family size.

 

[lentesta]

Did the old GAC allow rerides? I know it would be near impossible to make assumptions, but it was the most popular ride in the park.

Good point. I believe both GAC and DAS allow re-rides. (And that's different than Genie+, which doesn't.)

The math gets easier to support if you admit some number of DAS re-rides. I don't know what the re-ride number is for the average WDW attraction. If someone does, please let me know.

 

[lentesta]

Question: does usage of the LL line via DAS (as opposed to G+) affect the number of G+ slots "released"? Like, does the system rattle down releasing and offering future G+ slots in a given day because there has been significant LL usage by non-Genie+ users earlier in the day?

I would bet all of my worldly possessions AND everything that @wdwmagic owns, that Disney has identified excessive DAS usage as an impediment to increasing Genie+ capacity and revenue.

If there's one place in the world you don't want to be, it's between Disney and a stack of money.

 

[Splash4eva]

I have heard similar from other people. For my family if we are paying for a fast pass system no matter the park, we want to be able to ride things more than once, get more than 10 attractions with it per day and not have to refresh the app to get a time that fits our schedule.

As far as the whole DAS thing. IMO there is 2 things they can do that would help immensely. First would be limit the amount of guests that can ride with person using to DAS to 4.

The other is DAS can't have a Genie+ return time at the same time. For example if you book Peter Pan through DAS and the wait time is an hour, you can't have Genie+ attraction with a return time in that hour.

I understood why suggesting you cant have both is a semi hot topic but imo Disney is not going to test tho waters of having DAS users having to “choose”. I could be totally wrong. Just my thoughts.

As far as how many can use it to me it should be semi arbitrary & limited to like you said 4 unless say you have a bigger immediate family.

The pre bookings need to go this coming from a DAS user…

 

[Splash4eva]

It’s implied by the math. If 3% if guests get DAS, than you would expect 3% to take up ride capacity since the system is apparently the same thing as waiting in standby. The numbers don’t show that, they’re taking 30%. Therefore DAS users are taking up a disproportionate amount of ride capacity. That can only be done if 1) they are using the system differently than intended or 2) they routinely bring 8-10 other people with them when they ride.

I don’t have a opinion on this. Just explaining the thought process. Len can jump in to correct me if came to the wrong conclusions.

Again people are NOT complaining about valid DAS users. They are complaining about people abusing the system w/o knowing anything regarding what that number may or may not be…

 

[Touchdown]

So you’d force someone with PTSD or Autism to wait in a Lounge, a confined space by definition, when that could well be a trigger for them?

Every person with a disability is different. A waiting room might be perfect for some, and hell on earth for others.

But yet they can be confined in a much smaller space like a vehicle and go on a ride, or watch a show? Fine have an outdoor garden too, the ADA requires reasonable accommodations, not unlimited ones.

 

[Brian]

But yet they can be confined in a much smaller space like a vehicle and go on a ride, or watch a show? Fine have an outdoor garden too, the ADA requires reasonable accommodations, not unlimited ones.

I think there would be an issue with forcing disabled guests to wait in a specific area from an optics perspective. There would be critics who would say Disney is treating disabled guests like "cattle" and "herding them" into "pens." Of course, this is charged language meant to stoke outrage, but it's the kind of PR disaster they would assuredly do everything they can to avoid.

 

[Jrb1979]

I understood why suggesting you cant have both is a semi hot topic but imo Disney is not going to test tho waters of having DAS users having to “choose”. I could be totally wrong. Just my thoughts.

As far as how many can use it to me it should be semi arbitrary & limited to like you said 4 unless say you have a bigger immediate family.

The pre bookings need to go this coming from a DAS user…

You can have both Genie+ and DAS. What I'm saying is the system shouldn't allow for DAS return time and Genie+ return time active for the same hour.

Example having a DAS return time of 11 am for Peter Pan and a Haunted Mansion return time for 11 am. Basically being in 2 virtual queues at the same time.

As far as adding capacity to fix the problem. IMO it would help but not as much as everyone thinks. No matter the amount of capacity the park has there will never be enough for everyone to have Genie+ and have availability for everything.

The problem is Disney creating the mindset of waiting in line is not an option when visiting a theme park. Til that's changed it doesn't matter what they do. IMO unless you have issues physically waiting in long lines than standby should be the option for majority of guests