Kevin Yee- Airing of Grievances

[marni1971]

i think a big issue with lack of maintenance and repairs is that most 1st timers to the world dont pay much attention to what is wrong or have no idea as to how things are supposed to be

It is. And that's a big problem. Why should The Mouse spend resources if x amount of people won't notice?

And that will be its downfall.

 

[unkadug]

right on

far out

groovy

peace

 

[HMF]

Everytime I saw another Disney fault or flaw, I'm reminded of the lyrics to this "Disney" tune:

"If you cut every corner
It is really not so bad
Everybody does it,
Even mom and dad
If nobody sees it,
Then nobody gets mad"

It's the American Way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Yet there's 50 "bloggers" in the park at any given time and this doesn't end up plastered all over the web.

Excellent point!

You wonder what all these blogclowns are doing there - sipping complimentary LeFoul brew while trying to edge physically closer to anybody with an official Disney nametag? Useless.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I completely agree. WDW doesn’t need any more theme parks. How about instead they spend a couple of billion to keep chunks from falling off the Tree of Life & Splash Mountain, fix Disco Yeti, remove the mold from the Maelstrom, get the animatronics fully functional on Carousel of Progress, Haunted Mansion, Splash Mountain, …, gee, it is a long list, and with the money left over, do a general repair and clean-up of pretty much every attraction at all four theme parks.

Of course, we have the “New” Fantasyland. Journey of the Little Mermaid makes such a pretty C ticket attraction and MK really needed a couple of additional meet & greets and restaurants. No need to add any real attractions. My family enjoyed the “New” Fantasyland for about an hour but, sadly, we don’t see much of a reason to return anytime in the near future. Maybe in 2014 after the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train roller coaster finally opens. Good thing we bought those Universal annual passes. Until then, no doubt there will be people who want to experience Enchanted Tales with Belle again and again. And again. Too bad there isn’t much else for them to do in the Enchanted Forest.

Oh wait. We have Avatarland coming. Let’s see. Avatarland was announced in 2011. Construction is supposed to begin in 2013. Maybe. It’s supposed to take 5 years to build. That brings us to 2018. Maybe. Gee, maybe we’ll get something in 7 years.

As a DVC member, I’m really looking forward to staying at the new villas at the Grand Floridian. Too bad everyone can’t enjoy those but I’m glad TDO gave them priority over pretty much everything else.

Of course in the 1980s, WDW managed to open Epcot, Disney-MGM Studios, Typhoon Lagoon, Pleasure Island, Horizons, Journey Into Imagination, Morocco Pavilion, … Never mind. The list is so long my fingers are getting tired typing.

All things considered, I think I still prefer the 1980s and 1990s over the 2010s. No doubt you feel differently.

Whatever gives the impression I prefer current WDW over that of tweny years ago?

Why, I would personally tie to a pole and publicly flog in front of the TTC anybody involved with the Epcotalypse of the nineties or the two decades of continuing infantilisation of the MK.


No, I am simply against false nostalgia, and am for historical accuracy. Our grievances need precision. It is not enough to simply abhor current standards. One needs to be correct about which standards slipped, and where and when. Not just for the sake of accuracy itself, but also to understand why they happened. Or, sometimes, why a seemingly apparanty decline is anything but. Or why an incomprehensible managerial decision sometimes makes perfect sense, morevoer, sometimes on second thought may not deplorable in the first place. Or why any of that is often dependent solely on personal preference.


One example is the oft heard complaint that the Mk ought to build something new. That it is stale nowadays, that only one E-ticket has been build in the last two decades, and that this was not the case in Golden Age. Well, in this Golden Age, nothing of substance was build for nearly two decades too. Only one E-ticket in nearly two decades Thunder - which was just the cliff notes version of the WRE to begin with.

Speaking of which, Thunder may just be exactly the right example of what I mean with false nostalgia:
In the current WDW, after 20k was scrapped, it took exactly two decades to finally fill that space in, with two fine rides, but which lack the true ambition and scope of the original.
In the Golden Age WDW, after WRE was scrapped, it took exactly two decades to finally fill that space in, with two fine rides, but which lack the true ambition and scope of the original.

 

[WDW1974]

Have just skimmed the thread, but read Kevin's column while up in O-Town (I don't like announcing my trips up there online in advance as I have stalkers who tend to look for me ... crazy ones!)

It was, perhaps, the best thing he's ever written. It was honest and accurate and dead on ... I wonder if The Disney Parks Blog team read it after all the eating, drinking and bowling the night before? I don't envy their job at all, no ... I sure don't.

I actually have lots to say about my brief holiday visit to MK, EPCOT, TPFKaTD-MGMS, UNI, IOA, DD and select resorts, but will likely place them in another thread.

 

[celluloid]

Whatever gives the impression I prefer current WDW over that of tweny years ago?

Why, I would personally tie to a pole and publicly flog in front of the TTC anybody involved with the Epcotalypse of the nineties or the two decades of continuing infantilisation of the MK.


No, I am simply against false nostalgia, and am for historical accuracy. Our grievances need precision. It is not enough to simply abhor current standards. One needs to be correct about which standards slipped, and where and when. Not just for the sake of accuracy itself, but also to understand why they happened. Or, sometimes, why a seemingly apparanty decline is anything but. Or why an incomprehensible managerial decision sometimes makes perfect sense, morevoer, sometimes on second thought may not deplorable in the first place. Or why any of that is often dependent solely on personal preference.


One example is the oft heard complaint that the Mk ought to build something new. That it is stale nowadays, that only one E-ticket has been build in the last two decades, and that this was not the case in Golden Age. Well, in this Golden Age, nothing of substance was build for nearly two decades too. Only one E-ticket in nearly two decades Thunder - which was just the cliff notes version of the WRE to begin with.

Speaking of which, Thunder may just be exactly the right example of what I mean with false nostalgia:
In the current WDW, after 20k was scrapped, it took exactly two decades to finally fill that space in, with two fine rides, but which lack the true ambition and scope of the original.
In the Golden Age WDW, after WRE was scrapped, it took exactly two decades to finally fill that space in, with two fine rides, but which lack the true ambition and scope of the original.

What are you on? Space Mountain and Pirates were open before Big Thunder and after park opening. Hardly two decades.

With your second point in bold,it is a poor comparison. Western River Expansion was indeed scrapped but Big Thunder came only ten years if you want to argue that. Splash ten years later. It is not really comparable as we got a new large scale attraction within ten years of each other. It was not like now where it took 20 years to fill both of them.

Also if you want to compare Western River Expansion you have to count Pirates as well. It may be a lesser liked than the original version but it was built within seven years of that park opening and filling the spot with something the guests demanded.

If Space Mountain and Pirates opened in the mid 70s how is Big Thunder opening in the 80s nearly two decades?

 

[The Empress Lilly]

If Space Mountain and Pirates opened in the mid 70s how is Big Thunder opening in the 80s nearly two decades?

1975 to 1992. Between the Tomorrowland expansion (an actual expansion, instead of a repurposing!), and Splash. That's seventeen years with just one major new addition for the flagship park. Which back then was the only park, or only one of two for most of that time. 'UNI-like' expansions of a string of massive new big tickets one after the other have never been the norm for WDW parks once they matured. Because there is no need for that- once a park is up and running, it is...well, up and running.

Western River Expansion was indeed scrapped but Big Thunder came only ten years if you want to argue that. Splash ten years later. It is not really comparable as we got a new large scale attraction within ten years of each other. It was not like now where it took 20 years to fill both of them.

???

But that is exactly what I mean. Now you yourself describe how it took Golden Age WDW twenty years to fill in the empty spot of WRE with both of them (Thunder and Splash), only to argue that Golden Age WDW 'was not like now where it took 20 years to fill both of them".

Yes, it takes incompetent modern WDW twenty years to finally fill in 20k's plot. It took classic WDW twenty years to finally fill in WRE's plot. (And I count that from the opening of Pirates, when WRE was dead, not even '71)

Do I perhaps misunderstand the point you are making here?

 

[ParentsOf4]

1975 to 1992. Between the Tomorrowland expansion (an actual expansion, instead of a repurposing!), and Splash. That's seventeen years with just one major new addition for the flagship park. Which back then was the only park, or only one of two for most of that time. 'UNI-like' expansions of a string of massive new big tickets one after the other have never been the norm for WDW parks once they matured. Because there is no need for that- once a park is up and running, it is...well, up and running.

Overwhelming opinion is MK is WDW's "best" theme park. I'll go further and suggest most consider MK to be Orlando's premiere theme park. Even with its growing list of maintenance issues, it's still everyone's favorite. MK doesn't need attractions. MK needs maintenance.

Conversely, WDW needs its other three existing theme parks to match the grandeur of its first theme park.

It's unclear to me why you continue to focus on MK. In the period you've defined (1975 to 1992), WDW built two entire theme parks, two water parks (one since closed), and an adult entertainment district (also since closed). WDW wasn't wasting resources on attraction enhancements at MK; it was thinking big. For fans of WDW, I'd call that a "Golden Age".

Why do you choose to ignore what was going on in the rest of WDW and focus on just MK?

Honestly, I'm just confused.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Honestly, I'm just confused.

I know! I'm beginning to get confused too!

Just now, I was busy quoting a post from earlier in this thread, replying 'Listen, you dumbass, that's the biggest pile of crock this site has ever seen and', only to then realise I was typing a reply to myself.

Look, we're just exploring comparisons of building activity between current and previous era's of WDW. personally, I think the received wisdom that currrent WDW is stale and averse to investment and Golden Era WDW was not needs some nuance. For example, the MK, which added only one E-ticket during most of my childhood, in seventeen years. For good reason it did and all - I agree with you that WDW needed to focus on EPCOT, MGM and other areas.
Etc etc and more etceteras which I shall leave unmentioned and especially unrepeated so as not to bore even more people than I already do!

 

[Disneyhead'71]

OK here is what I remember about the WDW expansion timeline:

71 WDW grand opening (I was there in Dec. 71)
72 Carousel of Progress
73 Pirates
74
75 Space Mtn.
76 River Country
77 MSEP
78
79
80 BTMRR
81
82 Epcot Opens!!!!!!!!!!
83 Journey, Horizons
84
85
86 Living Seas, Captian EO
87
88 Wonders of Life, Illuminations
89 MGM opens!!!!!
90 Star Tours
91 Spectro replaces MSEP, Muppet Vision
92 Splash, Voyage of the Little Mermaid
93
94 ToT, Blizzard Beach
95 Alien Encounter
96
97 Test Track
98 DAK Opens!!!!!! Cruise line set sail,
99 Asia opens in DAK
2000 Pooh, Buzz, RnR
2001
2002
2003 Mission Space
2004 Turtle Talk, Stitch's Great Escape
2005 Soarin', LMA
2006 Everest
2007 MILF, Everest's Yeti goes 101
2008 TSMM, Pleasure Island closes
2009 AIE
2010
2011
2012 NFL opens

Empress, I think the list plainly shows that prior to 2001, the expansion schedule was MUCH more aggressive than since 2001. Now I fully expect the tired rhetoric of "mature' resort vs Growing resort. Yeah, whatever. Since 2006 we got MILF, TSMM, AIE, a broken yeti, and the ghost town formerly known as Pleasure Island. And in 2012 after the biggest expansion in the MK's history, WDW STILL hasn't gotten a new E since 2006. The only thing that would even come close to comparing to the dearth of new attractions we are seeing now was 76-80 where all we really got was the world's first waterpark known as River Country and the Main Street Electrical Parade.

 

[WDW1974]

What are you on? Space Mountain and Pirates were open before Big Thunder and after park opening. Hardly two decades.

With your second point in bold,it is a poor comparison. Western River Expansion was indeed scrapped but Big Thunder came only ten years if you want to argue that. Splash ten years later. It is not really comparable as we got a new large scale attraction within ten years of each other. It was not like now where it took 20 years to fill both of them.

Also if you want to compare Western River Expansion you have to count Pirates as well. It may be a lesser liked than the original version but it was built within seven years of that park opening and filling the spot with something the guests demanded.

If Space Mountain and Pirates opened in the mid 70s how is Big Thunder opening in the 80s nearly two decades?

I've only read a bit about the strange discussion the Empress is engaged in about WDW's expansion ... all I know is from opening right on into the 90s, the resort expanded in many ways and added new or refreshed things regularly.

You wouldn't have the same parade in 1975 also playing the MK in 1985 and then 1995 too, for a small example.

BTW, @KevinYee I saw the post about me being in your head. There are worse voices to have in your head (just don't let me sing Disney showtunes, that's Lee's department!)

 

[WDW1974]

Overwhelming opinion is MK is WDW's "best" theme park. I'll go further and suggest most consider MK to be Orlando's premiere theme park. Even with its growing list of maintenance issues, it's still everyone's favorite. MK doesn't need attractions. MK needs maintenance.

Conversely, WDW needs its other three existing theme parks to match the grandeur of its first theme park.

It's unclear to me why you continue to focus on MK. In the period you've defined (1975 to 1992), WDW built two entire theme parks, two water parks (one since closed), and an adult entertainment district (also since closed). WDW wasn't wasting resources on attraction enhancements at MK; it was thinking big. For fans of WDW, I'd call that a "Golden Age".

Why do you choose to ignore what was going on in the rest of WDW and focus on just MK?

Honestly, I'm just confused.

Just would add that MK isn't WDW or Orlando's best theme park by a long shot. It's living off a reputation earned when pintrading and character meals and 458-pounders riding scooters all over didn't exist.

Talked to a friend this afternoon (who I was NOT bored by!) and talked about what a different and classier place WDW was in say 1987 and a more adult one. MK was no different. It was a much more layered, nuanced experience than today's park aimed squarely at infants to 10-year-olds and their blogging Mommies and Papis.

Disney can't even open attractions today that work from Day 1 ... just look at those great broken eels in Mermaid, which BTW doesn't come close to the quality of ET, the only 1990 original UNI attraction still open.

 

[Rasvar]

Have just skimmed the thread, but read Kevin's column while up in O-Town (I don't like announcing my trips up there online in advance as I have stalkers who tend to look for me ... crazy ones!)

It was, perhaps, the best thing he's ever written. It was honest and accurate and dead on ... I wonder if The Disney Parks Blog team read it after all the eating, drinking and bowling the night before? I don't envy their job at all, no ... I sure don't.

I actually have lots to say about my brief holiday visit to MK, EPCOT, TPFKaTD-MGMS, UNI, IOA, DD and select resorts, but will likely place them in another thread.

I'm looking forward to this. I made a very brief day trip on Wednesday. I only made Epcot and MK with a friend. I might add my own comments to that new thread when you post it but I really did not come up with anything new to say as the experience was pretty much as I thought it would be (not in a good way).

 

[WDW1974]

OK here is what I remember about the WDW expansion timeline:

71 WDW grand opening (I was there in Dec. 71)
72 Carousel of Progress
73 Pirates
74
75 Space Mtn.
76 River Country
77 MSEP
78
79
80 BTMRR
81
82 Epcot Opens!!!!!!!!!!
83 Journey, Horizons
84
85
86 Living Seas, Captian EO
87
88 Wonders of Life, Illuminations
89 MGM opens!!!!!
90 Star Tours
91 Spectro replaces MSEP, Muppet Vision
92 Splash, Voyage of the Little Mermaid
93
94 ToT, Blizzard Beach
95 Alien Encounter
96
97 Test Track
98 DAK Opens!!!!!! Cruise line set sail,
99 Asia opens in DAK
2000 Pooh, Buzz, RnR
2001
2002
2003 Mission Space
2004 Turtle Talk, Stitch's Great Escape
2005 Soarin', LMA
2006 Everest
2007 MILF, Everest's Yeti goes 101
2008 TSMM, Pleasure Island closes
2009 AIE
2010
2011
2012 NFL opens

Empress, I think the list plainly shows that prior to 2001, the expansion schedule was MUCH more aggressive that since 2001. Now I fully expect the tired rhetoric of "mature' resort vs Growing resort. Yeah, whatever. Since 2006 we got MILF, TSMM, AIE, a broken yeti, and the ghost town formerly known as Pleasure Island. And in 2012 after the biggest expansion in the MK's history, WDW STILL hasn't gotten a new E since 2006. The only thing that would even come close to comparing to the dearth of new attractions we are seeing now was 76-80 where all we really got was the world's first waterpark known as River Country and the Main Street Electrical Parade.

That list still doesn't include all the new parades and shows and entertainment that was 'added' in some of those slow years.

Now, with four parks, Disney barely adds any fresh product regularly and when it does it often is very insignificant. Doubling Dumbo? The Casey Junior Pee While You Play and Pervs Take Your Pics Fountain? Really?!?!

 

[WDW1974]

I'm looking forward to this. I made a very brief day trip on Wednesday. I only made Epcot and MK with a friend. I might add my own comments to that new thread when you post it but I really did not come up with anything new to say as the experience was pretty much as I thought it would be (not in a good way).

I was at IOA and UNI on Wednesday. It was MAGICal.

Not sure when I'll get around to the thread, but want to post thoughts when they're fresh.

I will say I don't know how UNI keeps the lights on serving a filet mignon at Mythos for $16.99 and adding soup for only $2.99 (and offering discounts to APers and AAA members on top) ... when Disney served me likely one of the worst turkey sandwiches of my life at Cosmic Ray's and easily the worst fries I have had in many moons all for the low, low price of $9.59.

 

[Bolna]

when Disney served me likely one of the worst turkey sandwiches of my life at Cosmic Ray's and easily the worst fries I have had in many moons all for the low, low price of $9.59.

Well, this is where my "never eat in Tomorrowland" rule (which originated at DLP's version of a Tomorrowland to be fair) would have come in handy... I don't understand how Disney is able to have so little consistency with their quality in fries. They for sure serve the same product everywhere, so the stuff that is in the bag before they place it in the fryer is the the same everywhere, but they don't manage to fry them equally everywhere. I had no idea that this is such an art - makes me appreciate McDonalds much more which at least manages to serve a consistent quality.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Empress, I think the list plainly shows that prior to 2001, the expansion schedule was MUCH more aggressive than since 2001. Now I fully expect the tired rhetoric of "mature' resort vs Growing resort. Yeah, whatever.

'Yeah, whatever?"

Seriously?

Yensiddaeh: 'In 1971 WDW opened 40 rides, thirty shops and twenty restaurants. In 1972, one ride. This shows a clear decline'
The Richard R. Irvine: "Duh, that's because in 1971 they openend an entire theme park resort, and once this was up and running, they obviously didn't need to do the same work all over again the next year"
Yensiddaeh: "Yeah, I expected this tired rhetoric that a park in in its opening year opens more attractions than the next year when it's a mature investment. Yeah, whatever. I'm not falling for that".


I'm sorry, but I must insist the 'mature investment principle' is merely a rather straightforward principle: namely, that once a theme park has been build, or a holiday resort with four parks etc, or an urban development project, that by sheer logic investment will plummet. After all, the park/resort/project is up and running.

In what must appear as a magic, I predict that DCA's investment will plummet in coming years, because the expansion, by extention the entire park, is now a mature investment. WoC, TLM, Cars Land, BVS are up and running, so investment will be drastically scaled back. As well as it should, from any sane, and very basic, business point of view.



Parentsof4 understands the principle very well:

Overwhelming opinion is MK is WDW's "best" theme park. I'll go further and suggest most consider MK to be Orlando's premiere theme park. Even with its growing list of maintenance issues, it's still everyone's favorite. MK doesn't need attractions. MK needs maintenance.

Conversely, WDW needs its other three existing theme parks to match the grandeur of its first theme park.

It's unclear to me why you continue to focus on MK. In the period you've defined (1975 to 1992), WDW built two entire theme parks, two water parks (one since closed), and an adult entertainment district (also since closed). WDW wasn't wasting resources on attraction enhancements at MK; it was thinking big. For fans of WDW, I'd call that a "Golden Age".

 

[Disneyhead'71]

Duh! well obviously they don't/can't/shouldn't build a new 30+ attraction theme park every year. That said, there is NO SUCH THING as a "mature" theme park.

"Disneyland will never be completed. It will continue to grow as long as there is imagination left in the world."
—Walt Disney

I can't imagine that he felt any different about WDW.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

72 Carousel of Progress
73 Pirates
74
75 Space Mtn.
76
77 MSEP
78
79
80 BTMRR
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91 Spectro replaces MSEP
92 Splash
93
94
95 Alien Encounter
96
97
98
99

Disney barely adds any fresh product regularly and when it does it often is very insignificant. Doubling Dumbo? The Casey Junior Pee While You Play and Pervs Take Your Pics Fountain? Really?!?!

See, I just don't get this.

You approvingly quote a long list of years of blank nothingness for MK additions, to rubbish the claim that by comparison current MK is undergoing a veritable building spree? Seriously?

I have not seen a single picture of the MK in the last three years without scaffolds, cranes, steel beams. All of them, all pictures. Circusland, FLE, two new rides, tarps everywhere, Sorcerers game, overhaul of the Skyway area etcetera.

Yet here we are, having a serious (*ahem*) discussion that it is a 'provocation' to speak of a veritable building spree, that the MK used to add so much more on a yearly basis, that the current additions are insignificant compared to the 70s/80s/90s.

Wow. We could be standing directly on top of the Dwarf Coaster, wearing yellow helmets, ducking for a crane adding another piece of coaster track, overlooking Mermaid, and still some of you would look funny at me for me arguing that the MK is undergoing a building spree.

Edit: Disneyhead - mature is not the same as complete.