Kevin Yee- Airing of Grievances

[Rasvar]

Don't get me going on parades. Recycle recycle recycle. I remember when they actually use to completely redo the floats and parades every three to five years.

 

[Rasvar]

I don't remember that steady stream.

What I do remember is that in the eighties, in five years time during which I visited nearly annually, all they opened was a Morocco pavillion - no ride, just merchandise and restaurants. (WDW was all about money back then). And The Seas, a vast but not extraordinary aquarium, underwhelming.

I also remember the MK only ever adding Thunder throughout my entire childhood. That's it. One ride in the better part of two decades.


By contrast, there is a veritable building spree right now. And if half of the rumoured projects come to pass, the next few years could be some of the most exciting ever.

Yeah the mid to late '80s were hard times for the company EPCOT Center kind of took a lot out of the budget plus there were the hostile takeovers and poor performance of the studios as a whole. It took a while for Eisner and Frank Wells to turn things around. That led to the boom in the late 80's and early 90's. I still count the day that Frank Wells was lost as the second largest loss in Disney Company history only to that of Walt himself. Losing Wells allowed Eisner to get out of control.

 

[celluloid]

Rasvar. Right on the money.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

You might want to reconsider the 1980s. Perhaps you were too young to fully appreciate all that was happening. From 1982 to 1989, they opened two entire theme parks and a tremendous water park. (Typhoon Lagoon was incredible and, at the time, wowed me more than Disney-MGM Studios.) Kinda hard to add minor attractions, the standard that seems to be OK today, when entire theme parks are being added. They also added Pleasure Island, a great place to be as a twenty-something year old.

WDW hasn't added anything of this scale since, well, DAK in 1998. That's 14 years ago.

The eighties were an absolute heyday for WDW. But there was a five year lull between when Horizons opened, and the explosion of 88/89. Nothing in the MK, only underwhelming or filler additions to EPCOT.

You've got to remember, Disney had just sunk $1.4B (about $3.4B today) into Epcot, a tremendous amount of money for a company that was considerably smaller than now. The fact that they started Disney-MGM Studios construction less than 4 years after Epcot demonstrates their commitment to growing the WDW experience.

Just imagine the dancing all of us would be doing today if TWDC suddenly announced plans to spend $3.4B on a single capital outlay. Oh, and followed-up on that by opening another entire theme park several years later.

But why would they do that? Why would WDW spend billions on gates five and six? That is so far removed from reality it is best left to fan daydreaming.

Fans would love it, certainly. But then, I would also love to see WDW build twenty E-tickets next year and have all ten princesses escort me through the parks for an entrance fee of five dollars. But why would they do that? It is just fan daydreaming.

Reality is where its at. And reality is that WDW needed investments of that magnitude to get up and running - a process of three decades. Once this is achieved, WDW does not need to strive for expansion, but for deepening. And refreshing, staying relevant and competitive.
Short of a complete game-changing rethink of WDW (turn it into a city of leisure, a Dubai in the Western Hemisphere or the like), WDW will not see a return to the investments on the scale it needed to get build up into a fully functioning vacation resort.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Yeah the mid to late '80s were hard times for the company EPCOT Center kind of took a lot out of the budget plus there were the hostile takeovers and poor performance of the studios as a whole. It took a while for Eisner and Frank Wells to turn things around. That led to the boom in the late 80's and early 90's. I still count the day that Frank Wells was lost as the second largest loss in Disney Company history only to that of Walt himself. Losing Wells allowed Eisner to get out of control.

Totally. I consider 1994 the year it all went downhill. Both the animated films and WDW. What a disastrous turn of events.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

And a "veritable building spree right now"? Come on. What's under construction right now?

I know you like to use incendiary language, but that's ridiculous.

What is ever so incendiary about the phrase 'veritable building spree right now'?

Let us not get too worked up about WDW. This is a first world problems forum! Somebody will think the MK build more in the 80s, the next person thinks the MK builds more this decade. No need to get excited about any of that!

 

[TalkingHead]

What is ever so incendiary about the phrase 'veritable building spree right now'?

Let us not get too worked up about WDW. This is a first world problems forum! Somebody will think the MK build more in the 80s, the next person thinks the MK builds more this decade. No need to get excited about any of that!

It sounds provocative for the sake of being provocative when there's no evidence to suggest WDW's parks are experiencing a veritable building spree compared to what they saw in the 80s and 90s.

What is being built at the parks right now? The Mine Train and a restroom and...?

 

[ParentsOf4]

The eighties were an absolute heyday for WDW. But there was a five year lull between when Horizons opened, and the explosion of 88/89. Nothing in the MK, only underwhelming or filler additions to EPCOT.

But why would they do that? Why would WDW spend billions on gates five and six? That is so far removed from reality it is best left to fan daydreaming.

Fans would love it, certainly. But then, I would also love to see WDW build twenty E-tickets next year and have all ten princesses escort me through the parks for an entrance fee of five dollars. But why would they do that? It is just fan daydreaming.

Reality is where its at. And reality is that WDW needed investments of that magnitude to get up and running - a process of three decades. Once this is achieved, WDW does not need to strive for expansion, but for deepening. And refreshing, staying relevant and competitive.

I completely agree. WDW doesn’t need any more theme parks. How about instead they spend a couple of billion to keep chunks from falling off the Tree of Life & Splash Mountain, fix Disco Yeti, remove the mold from the Maelstrom, get the animatronics fully functional on Carousel of Progress, Haunted Mansion, Splash Mountain, …, gee, it is a long list, and with the money left over, do a general repair and clean-up of pretty much every attraction at all four theme parks.

Of course, we have the “New” Fantasyland. Journey of the Little Mermaid makes such a pretty C ticket attraction and MK really needed a couple of additional meet & greets and restaurants. No need to add any real attractions. My family enjoyed the “New” Fantasyland for about an hour but, sadly, we don’t see much of a reason to return anytime in the near future. Maybe in 2014 after the Seven Dwarfs Mine Train roller coaster finally opens. Good thing we bought those Universal annual passes. Until then, no doubt there will be people who want to experience Enchanted Tales with Belle again and again. And again. Too bad there isn’t much else for them to do in the Enchanted Forest.

Oh wait. We have Avatarland coming. Let’s see. Avatarland was announced in 2011. Construction is supposed to begin in 2013. Maybe. It’s supposed to take 5 years to build. That brings us to 2018. Maybe. Gee, maybe we’ll get something in 7 years.

As a DVC member, I’m really looking forward to staying at the new villas at the Grand Floridian. Too bad everyone can’t enjoy those but I’m glad TDO gave them priority over pretty much everything else.

Of course in the 1980s, WDW managed to open Epcot, Disney-MGM Studios, Typhoon Lagoon, Pleasure Island, Horizons, Journey Into Imagination, Morocco Pavilion, … Never mind. The list is so long my fingers are getting tired typing.

All things considered, I think I still prefer the 1980s and 1990s over the 2010s. No doubt you feel differently.

 

[whylightbulb]

Yes...

...but, that's the designer's perspective. The designer always wants more money to realise ever more ambitious dreams. There is no limit.
Everybody loves to spend his time devising up awesome rides. Browsing the glossy brochures of show equipment companies. But as these go, there is no limit to the amount of money one can spend on them. One can spend a milion dollar on a home audio system alone, never mind on a alrge-scale theatrical audio set-up.

There has to be budgetary control. This works twofold: to guard over the budget, period. And to make sure that the budget is spend evenly, that is, for example, that not twelve million is spend on audio alone for a twenty million ride. That would leave lipstick on a pig - which nevertheless every desinger of every show aspect would happily do if given the chance. Which lighting engineer couldn't do much more 'if only they would've given me a proper budget...'

The whole of EPCOT was build with severe time and budgetary restraints. Horizons was the cliff-notes version of what was planned. But great design is not 'dreamig up the greatest design imaginable', but accepting budgetary constraints and then conjuring up a killer design within those limitations. The budget of Horizons was severly cut, the ride shortened. Still, the designers played the hand they were dealt and gave the best they could within the limitations they were set.

I've been on both sides and I agree with you on some of your points. I've posted many times regarding the hacks at WDI that produce mostly unimaginative, dull and trite work because the HR idiots hire them due to their education credits rather than their actual talent. WDI is full of them and it's obvious looking at the WDW projects from the past 15 years. I've worked on big budget projects as well as low budget attractions and sometimes the lower budgets force you to be more creative. A good example I use a lot is Cranium Command. In my opinion that was a brilliant theme park show and its development was certainly marked by a low budget and tight schedule. While this is a valid point that's not what I'm focusing on in this thread. I'm focusing on the Disney Company philosophy of today vs. the "golden age."

Every attraction goes through some value engineering and other changes. The difference is that Horizons still ended up with about a $55 Million budget which in today's dollars equals approximately $122 Million. That's a nice hefty budget for an elaborate omnimover. Back then most attractions were in that range and most of those were higher. Im not sure where you got the idea that they were working with severe budgetary restraints for EPCOT.

WDI has shown that they can produce top quality product but it requires hefty budgets to do it. The payoff is obvious looking at Tokyo and Cars Land but TDO is unwilling to give up their short-term thinking and they are running the property into mediocrity.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

I've been on both sides and I agree with you on some of your points. I've posted many times regarding the hacks at WDI that produce mostly unimaginative, dull and trite work because the HR idiots hire them due to their education credits rather than their actual talent. WDI is full of them and it's obvious looking at the WDW projects from the past 15 years.

Art Center Illustration majors?

 

[celluloid]

Plus Spectromagic in 1991, 1993 updated COP, Timekeeper in 1994, Alien Encounter in 1995, and parades that were updated during the 1980s -- when was the Mardi Gras parade? Late 80s?

Also, notice he started his list of years right after Space Mountain and Pirates just opened. The park was not even ten years old and already had just built two new E-tickets.

You also had a lot of smaller attractions and enhancement throughout those early years. If you Had Wings also came into the picture as well as the Country Bear spin off shows. that happened leading up to Splash Mountain. Not bad considering the Diversity of projects going on all at the same time (EPCOT work had a lot of attention underway)

 

[alphac2005]

Totally. I consider 1994 the year it all went downhill. Both the animated films and WDW. What a disastrous turn of events.

You're so right. Frank Wells played the Roy Disney role outstandingly. He allowed Michael Eisner to focus on the creative end (and for all his ills, when he was focused on that end of the business, he truly did have talent) and he took care of making things a reality or putting the brakes to them. Now, you can't even begin to legitimately compare Walt Disney and Michael Eisner, but their roles were similar as well, doing the creative side and having the financial guys figure out how to get them what they wanted.

As you said, 1994 is a turning point for the company. With the passing of Mr. Wells, we saw which direction Disney's corporate ethos went, the monster that is Michael Eisner was unleashed, and his micromanaging created nothing short of a disaster within the company. Frank Wells was a well respected man in Hollywood when he came on-board Disney, but years later, it has been shown just how incredibly important he was to not only saving the company, but changing the fortunes of the company in a stunning way.

It's interesting in a modern context that for all of the many ills of Michael Eisner, he interestingly enough actually was a CEO from a past era with his hands everywhere, as I said, micromanaging businesses. Whereas, Bob Iger is part of our current crop of CEOs that delegate nearly everything and have the bosses come and report to him with a way less hands on approach. You can't come to any reasonable conclusion here, but if you look at things, as a whole, where Bob Iger sees the product much more frequently in Anaheim, they have a quality product now. The vast majority of WDW problems no longer exist in Anaheim, so if Iger saw WDW on a more frequent basis, would that get him to correct the problems of Orlando? Whereas Eisner oversaw the degrading of quality on his own watch with his own micromanaging. Iger is also overseeing a company vastly larger in size.

What I find interesting is that we have so many role reversals now. When Disneyland went to complete hell, the Orlando management at the time was isolated from Burbank in many ways and their decline went way, way slower. There is no question that there was the beginning of the decline, but the disparity between Orlando and Anaheim were huge, and essentially the opposite image of today.

 

[George]

The eighties were an absolute heyday for WDW. But there was a five year lull between when Horizons opened, and the explosion of 88/89. Nothing in the MK, only underwhelming or filler additions to EPCOT.

In general you're right, but I was really pumped for The Living Seas in 1986.

 

[danlb_2000]

Outstanding post.

The real issue people don't want to believe or contemplate is the fact they are holding the "ideal" of Disney World to memories of their youth, which, while romantic is always going to let them down. Every single time.

Yes, I agree. From my Epcot trip in the mid 80's I have a memory of this thing called Imageworks in the Imagination pavillion, but now that I have gone back when I am older I have relized that it never really existed an Epcot is just like it was in the 80's.

 

[whylightbulb]

Art Center Illustration majors?

Many are from there. In general most get the job based on interview skills and having the degree. As far as possessing a good sense of design along with the requisite knowledge and creativity the lot of them have no clue.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Many are from there. In general most get the job based on interview skills and having the degree. As far as possessing a good sense of design along with the requisite knowledge and creativity the lot of them have no clue.

This also plays into the real concern that WDI is being turned into theme park design equivalent of Consumer Products, effectively removing any creative spirit out of the division and focusing solely on the $$. It's quite a shame really, as WDAS has been revived with great success, WDI looks like it's turning in on itself.

 

[disneyflush]

Its must be difficult to focus your creative energy and really go crazy for a project as an imagineer only to have that project significantly cut or outright cancelled after a year or two. That could lead to a less enthusiastic response and outside-the-box thinking from the employees since they may hold back their best ideas for projects that will definitely get green-lit and actually built.

 

[janoimagine]

Its must be difficult to focus your creative energy and really go crazy for a project as an imagineer only to have that project significantly cut or outright cancelled after a year or two. That could lead to a less enthusiastic response and outside-the-box thinking from the employees since they may hold back their best ideas for projects that will definitely get green-lit and actually built.

That happens all the time in any creative industry ... it builds character ... so to speak.

 

[George]

Yes, I agree. From my Epcot trip in the mid 80's I have a memory of this thing called Imageworks in the Imagination pavillion, but now that I have gone back when I am older I have relized that it never really existed an Epcot is just like it was in the 80's.

I also have a "false memory" of these really cool moving blocks in the UoE preshow. In fact, I have a false memory of several really cool effects in the last UoE show scene. Odd, since I rode that maybe 100 times in the 80's.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

I also have a "false memory" of these really cool moving blocks in the UoE preshow. In fact, I have a false memory of several really cool effects in the last UoE show scene. Odd, since I rode that maybe 100 times in the 80's.

I share your delusions, I myself have these false memories of there being an actual imaginative ride that used to be housed in the Imagination pavilion. I also have fake memories of a ride that used the be at Mission Space that wasn't even a simulator and had masses of show scenes and animatronic, another where Test Track is that had one of if not the greatest amount of animatronics within a single Disney ride ever. And I also seem to falsely recall there actually being something to look at in the SSE descent besides a bad flash animation.

I even have these delusions that there weren't tarps above Splash Mountain's loading area just months ago when I visited. Crazy.

Oddly enough these fake memories seem to be shared by millions of fellow delusional people, some of whom even seemed to own these magical devices that can record video of things that never existed.