Kevin Yee- Airing of Grievances

TalkingHead

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
celluloid said:
And even if we can shove the horrible state of upkeep aside. The lack of attractions being built or added is astoundingly stagnant and pathetic. We knew when a park did not have a large scale ride or attraction within five years, even before the internet. Sadly we never had to question it because Disney was on the ball and always had a new attraction to brag about. Besides New Fantasyland the parks are a ghost town in terms of progress.
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That's the most indefensible part of WDW's business model.

Say what you want about maintenance -- for the sake of argument let's just say things break, mold happens, maintenance is impossible to keep up with.

But the lack of substantial improvements in rides, shows, and entertainment is not debatable.

Look at the construction timeline for Fantasyland. Look at the lack of major new additions at DHS, Epcot, and DAK. Look at the "biggest" expansion in MK history that many people feel lacks substance.

That's just a fact. WDW isn't interested in improving the offerings in the parks in any substantial way. And it's been that way for years now. Looks like it'll be that way for a few years to come.

If you have fun at WDW, that's great. But you gotta admit this isn't the 80s-90s when major attractions/shows/parades/entertainment were being added pretty much annually.
 
ParentsOf4

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
celluloid said:
And even if we can shove the horrible state of upkeep aside. The lack of attractions being built or added is astoundingly stagnant and pathetic. We knew when a park did not have a large scale ride or attraction within five years, even before the internet. Sadly we never had to question it because Disney was on the ball and always had a new attraction to brag about. Besides New Fantasyland the parks are a ghost town in terms of progress.
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WDW does have things coming, just no longer of the scale and frequency of what it used to accomplish regularly in the past:
- 1971 - MK opens
- 1973 - Carousel of Progress
- 1973 - Tom Sawyer Island
- 1973 - Pirates of the Caribbean
- 1974 - Astro Orbiter
- 1974 - Discovery Island opens
- 1975 - Space Mountain
- 1975 - Mission to Mars
- 1976 - River Country opens
- 1979 - Epcot construction begins
- 1980 - Big Thunder Mountain Railroad
- 1982 - Epcot opens
- 1983 - Horizons
- 1983 - Journey Into Imagination
- 1984 - Morocco Pavilion
- 1986 - Living Seas
- 1986 - Captain EO
- 1986 - Disney-MGM Studios construction begins
- 1988 - Mickey's Toontown Fair (opened as Mickey's Birthdayland)
- 1988 - Norway Pavilion
- 1988 - Illuminations
- 1989 - Disney-MGM Studios opens
- 1989 - Typhoon Lagoon opens
- 1989 - Pleasure Island opens
- 1990 - Honey I Shrunk the Movie Set
- 1991 - Muppets Vision 3D
- 1992 - Splash Mountain
- 1992 - Voyage of the Little Mermaid
- 1994 - Honey, I Shrunk the Audience
- 1994 - The Timekeeper
- 1994 - Tower Of Terror
- 1995 - Blizzard Beach opens
- 1995 - WDW Speedway
- 1996 - Barnstormer at Goofy’s Wiseacre Farm
- 1996 - Fantasia Gardens Miniature Golf
- 1997 - Downdown Disney is reopened in its current configuration
- 1997 - Wide World of Sports
- 1998 - Disney's Animal Kingdom opens
- 1998 - Buzz's Spaceranger Spin
- 1998 - Test Track
- 1998 - DisneyQuest opens
- 1999 - Winnie the Pooh
- 1999 - Rock n Roller Coaster
- 1999 - Winter Summerland miniature golf
- 1999 - Kali River Rapids, Flights of Wonder, & Maharajah Jungle Trek
- 2001 - One Man's Dream
- 2001 - Who Wants to be a Millionaire
- 2001 - Magic Carpets of Aladdin
- 2001 - Playhouse Disney

This is not the complete list, only the highlights.

The point is that those of us who grew old with WDW remember a steady stream of real additions during its first 30 years. We also remember a real commitment to quality and value.

So when TDO takes 5+ years to build a "New" Fantasyland, hopefully an Avatarland, and maybe a Carsland, sorry if us old timers can't get too excited. WDW used to add so much more quickly and at a better price.

P.S. Sorry for reposting this from another thread but it seemed relevant to the discussion.
 
TalkingHead

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
ParentsOf4 said:
WDW does have things coming, just no longer of the scale and frequency of what it used to accomplish regularly in the past:
- 1971 - MK opens
- 1973 - Carousel of Progress
- 1973 - Tom Sawyer Island
- 1973 - Pirates of the Caribbean
- 1974 - Astro Orbiter
- 1974 - Discovery Island opens
- 1975 - Space Mountain
- 1975 - Mission to Mars
- 1976 - River Country opens
- 1979 - Epcot construction begins
- 1980 - Big Thunder Mountain Railroad
- 1982 - Epcot opens
- 1983 - Horizons
- 1983 - Journey Into Imagination
- 1984 - Morocco Pavillion
- 1986 - Living Seas
- 1986 - Captain EO
- 1986 - Disney-MGM Studios construction begins
- 1988 - Mickey's Toontown Fair (opened as Mickey's Birthdayland)
- 1988 - Norway Pavillion
- 1988 - Illuminations
- 1989 - Disney-MGM Studios opens
- 1989 - Typhoon Lagoon opens
- 1989 - Pleasure Island opens
- 1990 - Honey I Shrunk the Movie Set
- 1991 - Muppets Vision 3D
- 1992 - Splash Mountain
- 1992 - Voyage of the Little Mermaid
- 1994 - Honey, I Shrunk the Audience
- 1994 - The Timekeeper
- 1994 - Tower Of Terror
- 1995 - Blizzard Beach opens
- 1995 - WDW Speedway
- 1996 - Barnstormer at Goofy’s Wiseacre Farm
- 1996 - Fantasia Gardens Miniature Golf
- 1997 - Downdown Disney is reopened in its current configuration
- 1997 - Wide World of Sports
- 1998 - Disney's Animal Kingdom opens
- 1998 - Buzz's Spaceranger Spin
- 1998 - Test Track
- 1998 - DisneyQuest opens
- 1999 - Winnie the Pooh
- 1999 - Rock n Roller Coaster
- 1999 - Winter Summerland miniature golf
- 1999 - Kali River Rapids, Flights of Wonder, & Maharajah Jungle Trek
- 2001 - One Man's Dream
- 2001 - Who Wants to be a Millionaire
- 2001 - Magic Carpets of Aladdin
- 2001 - Playhouse Disney

This is not the complete list, only the highlights.
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The other thing to keep in mind is it isn't merely annual additions -- in the mid 80s, for instance, EPCOT was still a new park, and by the mid-90s, MGM was still relatively young and DAK was right around the corner. So you had the feeling that WDW was growing and presenting fresh entertainment in addition to the classics at MK (and later Epcot).

But the past ten years have been incredibly disappointing in this regard for WDW. The new attractions have been anything but home runs. We would probably agree that Pirates, Mansion, the Mountains, SSE, TOT are all classic attractions. Would we say the same about LMA, Stitch, Midway Mania, Laugh Floor, Everest, or Soarin?

Maybe one of those, perhaps a couple? In ten years' time, that means WDW has added perhaps two attractions that have the potential to be "classics" on the order of Mansion or SSE. That's really not a good rate of success and keeps a lot of people waiting for the "next big thing," which seems to under construction at the other Orlando parks.
 
disney fan 13

disney fan 13

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
BryceM said:
You really should. I think you should start planning for a 2014 trip when all of the expansions are open. ;)

Trust me, you'll love Universal Orlando, especially Islands of Adventure.
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2015, Phase II and IOA addition's completion dates are still up in the air (though i'm 100% that at least one of the IOA additions are a go if not both.)
 
C

celluloid

Well-Known Member
The JP addition is the most likely to go forward, there is a lot of talk about it. That being said someone could take a trip to Universal next year and it would all be new to them. They could come back in 2015 and see the same things plus two new E-tickets(or three depending on if one would go next year before Transformers is built)
You also have the Simpsons area enhancements and Jurassic Park IOA projects on the table for smaller additions.

Where as if one goes to WDW next year you get the Dwarfs mine train coaster and you come back in 2015 and get...uhhh. Likely nothing new in any of the four parks.

So you might as well save your WDW trip until after you take a trip to Universal and if you enjoy Universal and Sea World you can take a WDW trip in 2015 when they will actually have completed new Fantasyland and go back and decide if you can afford to do your favorites between Universal and Sea World.
 
TheBeatles

TheBeatles

Well-Known Member
hsisthebest said:
Just got back from 9 days in the World. Had a total blast and the KIDS loved it. WDW is totally geared to kids and in that respect I take issue with several of Kevin's grievances.
1st- that the price of anything (tickets, food, lodging, private events) is to high- that's silly and wrong, as long as there is a customer base willing to pay (i.e. me and tens of thousands of others) then the product is not overpriced. I am happy to shell out extra money for resort rooms, the convenience of food and WDW buses is well worth it because I have 3 small kids. Same thing with private ticket events- most MVMCP have been sold out in Dec.I remember when EMH at night were an extra fee and I loved it because the lines were really short and often DW and I were close to the only ones left at FW some nights- well worth the money if I want to spend it.

2nd- Ride conditions/maintenance- once again I am focused on my kids' experience and whether they are having a good time. I took DD (4yrs.) on Splash for the first time, it was so much fun and there is still so much working on the ride it was great. ToT looks as good as it did 13 yrs. again when I rode it for the 1st time. The only problem I saw that actually bothered me was the tarps on Splash. And Backlot tour- what the heck is up with the Backlot tour. Anything you all say about that ride I'll agree with.

3rd - park hours- they were just fine for us, again small kids can't stay out all night. Plus I seem to recall several times over the summer/fall when operating hours were extended on several nights.

4th- fastpass- Kevin cannot possibly have children or he would never besmirch the wonderful joy that is fastpass. With kids that need to potty, eat, diaper change constantly, etc., being able to walk on popular rides is priceless. I can't wait for fastpass plus so I can pre-reserve wait times- this was the second trip where Toy Story Mania was not an option- we just can't get the kids to HS in time to get a regular fastpass.

To give an overall assessment I would just say that Disney have been catering more and more to families, especially those with small kids. Why? Because we spend more money. Every time the 6 of us ate, slept (AoA), or bought merchandise, we spent more money than a teens/adults looking to go on rides constantly.

The New Fantasy land is great- and geared toward little kids. We loved Mermaid and the whole circus area. I was blown away by the magnitude of the Seven Dwarfs mine coaster and will definitely be back shortly after it opens. With another baby in tow.

With fastpass+ in hand.
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This may be the funniest post I've ever read on the boards.
 
The Empress Lilly

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
ParentsOf4 said:
The point is that those of us who grew old with WDW remember a steady stream of real additions during it's first 30 years. We also remember a real commitment to quality and value.

So when TDO takes 5+ years to build a "New" Fantasyland, hopefully an Avatarland, and maybe a Carsland, sorry if us old timers can't get too excited. WDW used to add so much more quickly and at a better price..
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I don't remember that steady stream.

What I do remember is that in the eighties, in five years time during which I visited nearly annually, all they opened was a Morocco pavillion - no ride, just merchandise and restaurants. (WDW was all about money back then). And The Seas, a vast but not extraordinary aquarium, underwhelming.

I also remember the MK only ever adding Thunder throughout my entire childhood. That's it. One ride in the better part of two decades.


By contrast, there is a veritable building spree right now. And if half of the rumoured projects come to pass, the next few years could be some of the most exciting ever.
 
disney fan 13

disney fan 13

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
TalkingHead said:
Is the IOA addition scheduled to open in 2015? That would be right on the heels of Phase II, right?
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I'm sure it's not going to be in '13, I doubt 2014 because they are waiting for Transformers and Simpsons to open before throwing more on the table. so 2015 seems the most logical (Plus, I could see them doing a double opening with Potter and IOA to try and spread crowds at least a little bit.
 
TalkingHead

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
The Empress Lilly said:
I don't remember that steady stream.

What I do remember is that in the eighties, in five years time during which I visited nearly annually, all they opened was a Morocco pavillion - no ride, just merchandise and restaurants. (WDW was all about money back then). And The Seas, a vast but not extraordinary aquarium, underwhelming.

I also remember the MK only ever adding Thunder throughout my entire childhood. That's it. One ride in the better part of two decades.


By contrast, there is a veritable building spree right now. And if half of the rumoured projects come to pass, the next few years could be some of the most exciting ever.
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But in 1985, you had all of opening day Epcot attractions that were only 3 yrs old and Horizons and Imagination that were 2 yrs old.

That's a lot to be added in three years -- what's opened at WDW in the last 3 yrs?

And a "veritable building spree right now"? Come on. What's under construction right now?

I know you like to use incendiary language, but that's ridiculous. "If" half of the rumored projects come to pass, it'll be 3 more years before they open.
 
The Empress Lilly

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
TalkingHead said:
The other thing to keep in mind is it isn't merely annual additions -- in the mid 80s, for instance, EPCOT was still a new park, and by the mid-90s, MGM was still relatively young and DAK was right around the corner. So you had the feeling that WDW was growing and presenting fresh entertainment in addition to the classics at MK (and later Epcot).
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Yes...


...but. But a theme park resort also has a life cycle of its own. First, it needs to grow. To add, add, add to becoem a full resort. Then once it matures, growth will very much decelerate. Rather, growth stops being upwards, and starts getting sideways.

What would be the pouint for WDW to open a park a decade anymore? WDW doesnlt need six, eight, fourteen theme parks. It needs four parks and two water parks adna shopping district. This is a complete holiday destination, more than enough for the average holiday of today. (the American middle class has so few days off left nowadays, that one wonders why don't start a revolution. The Polish and Soviet Union workers did when they got fed up of slaving away for a handful of fat cats)

WDW is a mature investment. It doesn't need to add, it doesn't need to replenish half its stock every decade either. UNI, by contrast, does need to invest and increase. As does SEA, to keep up with UNI and not lose out too much as an alternative gate.
 
Rasvar

Rasvar

Well-Known Member
raven24 said:
No, I'm not going because of what people are saying AND pictures of proof. Pictures don't lie. The place looks like a hot mess.
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As someone who has seen DL in the 2001/2002 era, I can say it is not at that point...yet. However, Unless you have a hankering to see Animal Kingdom, play golf or go to the water parks, I'm not sure I can recommend the trip for a DLR regular seeing WDW for the first time. There are still some unique items, but not enough for me to recommend a trip right now. I would hold off. I enjoy going to DLR more than WDW and I am only four hours away from WDW. I made the trip yesterday to see some friends and see the new items. Compared to what has been added to DLR recently: yawn.
 
The Empress Lilly

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
celluloid said:
That's ok that is all that you remember. But that list is accuratate, and as noted, not everything is on the list.
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That list is accurate indeed. I know, I was there. Here are the many annual additions to the MK in the Golden Age of the 70s/80s/90s, the twenty years between 1975 and 1996:

1976
1977
1978
1979
1980 - Big Thunder Mountain Railroad
1981
1982
1983
1984
1985
1986
1987
1988 - Mickey's Birthdayland (no rides, just shops and M&Gs)
1989
1990
1991
1992 - Splash Mountain
1993
1994
1995

I also remember the many closings of this Golden Age: Mickey Mouse Revue, the second steamboat, Swan boats, Walt Disney Story, 20K.
 
TalkingHead

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
The Empress Lilly said:
Yes...


...but. But a theme park resort also has a life cycle of its own. First, it needs to grow. To add, add, add to becoem a full resort. Then once it matures, growth will very much decelerate. Rather, growth stops being upwards, and starts getting sideways.

What would be the pouint for WDW to open a park a decade anymore? WDW doesnlt need six, eight, fourteen theme parks. It needs four parks and two water parks adna shopping district. This is a complete holiday destination, more than enough for the average holiday of today. (the American middle class has so few days off left nowadays, that one wonders why don't start a revolution. The Polish and Soviet Union workers did when they got fed up of slaving away for a handful of fat cats)

WDW is a mature investment. It doesn't need to add, it doesn't need to replenish half its stock every decade either. UNI, by contrast, does need to invest and increase. As does SEA, to keep up with UNI and not lose out too much as an alternative gate.
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Right, but I'm not saying they need to open a park per decade. I'm saying they need to maintain the four they have and keep the offerings fresh, new, and cutting-edge in each.

They've failed to do that.

When you say WDW doesn't need to add, do you mean they don't need to add new attractions or new parks? Because I agree four parks are plenty since they can't maintain the ones they have.
 
TalkingHead

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
The Empress Lilly said:
That list is accurate indeed. I know, I was there. Here are the many annual additions to the MK in the Golden Era of the 70s/80s/90s, the twenty years between 1975 and 1996:

1976
1977
1978
1979
1980 - Big Thunder Mountain Railroad
1981
1982
1983
1984
1985
1986
1987
1988 - Mickey's Birthdayland
1989
1990
1991
1992 - Splash Mountain
1993
1994
1995
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Plus Spectromagic in 1991, 1993 updated COP, Timekeeper in 1994, Alien Encounter in 1995, and parades that were updated during the 1980s -- when was the Mardi Gras parade? Late 80s?
 

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