jim hill gets kicked out?

[AEfx]

It is amazing how many professional journalists we have in here! Everyone knows what journalistic integrity is, how to write professionally, etc. It is amazing. I don't know why all of you don't have your own site! (by the way, this is sarcastic, just to help you all out!)

Some of us are, and do - we just don't discuss it here on a Disney board because it's not relevant to the topic. We also may not wish to combine our Disney discussions with our professional lives for whatever reason.

You should not have to be any of those things to see JHM for what it is. Are you a professional journalist? Can you tell the difference between the "National Enquirer" and "Time Magazine"? Does that take an expert? Do I need to be a chef to tell the difference between a hamburger at Le Cellier versus a hamburger at McDonalds?

It's not terribly difficult to make a website (go to domains.yahoo.com, major credit cards accepted), but it does give you some responsibility. When you represent yourself as an expert, as a reliable source, you are putting yourself out there. If some guy at a bar says, "You know, I don't think it's going to rain tonight," and another guy says, "Hey I'm a weatherman and I went to school for this and I'm telling you it's not going to rain!" and then it does rain - well, you don't need to ask "why for?" people are going to give the second guy with the big ego heck.

The reason you find so many people dislike him for so many reasons really comes down to this : trust. He breaks the trust of people quite often, from his pleas for people to send him money for things he never does, to using Disney for profit in his tours, to posting information with dubious credit, to his constant slant toward personal interest, to his attacks on other Disney fans, to the simple posting series of articles and never finishing them.

I read tabloids on occasion, but I certainly don't trust them. I guess that's what makes JHM tabloid journalism to me.

AEfx

 

[goldenstate5]

Actually, I like the CD better. I mean, most of us don't have the opportunity to book a JHM tour the day we go to DL. So why not have a CD instead? A portable version?

But, I can't BELIEVE you guys really, really think these three women complained for something about NOT being on the tour. Have you guys ever met these three women? Do you know what most women are like? (okay, I can't answer that one) Anyways, most of the tours promises to go backstage, that's probably it. And maybe the fact that the tour guide was wearing a Hawaiian hat. But I seriously doubt these chicks were complaining about "bad things about Disneyland" being said because that is NOT what Jim Hill says on these tours. He really doesn't, he just talks about what could've been in this place or that or the intresting orgin and creation of a certain ride or attraction. That's it. It's all about being on the wrong tour, and thinking they took the right one. Plain and simple...

EDIT: New news: Jim Hill actually did lie yesterday. He is NOT treating the guests to a "Walk in Walt's Footsteps" tour, Disney DID!!

http://www.jimhillmedia.com/mb/articles/showarticle.php?ID=1357

(and on his own website, too)...

 

[Lauriebar]

EDIT: New news: Jim Hill actually did lie yesterday. He is NOT treating the guests to a "Walk in Walt's Footsteps" tour, Disney DID!!

http://www.jimhillmedia.com/mb/articles/showarticle.php?ID=1357

(and on his own website, too)...

I do not visit Mr. Hill's site just because his style of writing is not my cup of tea, but in the interest of fairness you need to go back and read the original article. Mr. Hill does not claim to have provided his group with the "Walk in Walt's Footsteps" Tour. He clearly states that the "Mouse" provided this for them.

 

[askmike1]

Jim did not lie. he even said

So I caved. I agreed to stop giving that tour and immediately vacate the premises. And the Mouse -- as a sort of a "make-good" to all the nice folks who'd signed up for yesterday afternoon's tour -- then offered to treat these JHM readers to a "Walk in Walt's Footsteps" tour. Which I've never taken myself. But I hear is quite snazzy.

Also, O-Meon has a full account of the story, here.

To begin with, if you want to argue logical points, the discussion ends with "Disneyland is Private Property". That's all that needs to be said. Jim Hill was illegally making money off of the mouse any way you cut it - you cannot charge people to give tours of private property you are not offically authorized to. End of story.

What about the dozens of other tours given at both Disneyland and WDW. Everything from Foreign Tour Groups to MouseAdventure would have to be shut down.

Again, I don't understand the attacks on the women that were mistaken about the tour. Maybe this was the first tour they had taken and maybe they didn't read a bunch of reviews about the tour. It's not a real stretch to imagine they were not as informed as many around here. They probably thought the group of people with a leader could be their group.

I'm not blaming the women for going on the wrong tour (as that is understandable). However, they did not even say anything to Jim and then go complain about it to Disney. If you were promised to go backstage (and have lunch) I'd think you'd complain or comment about it to the tour guide.

the name of his site is Jim Hill Media / Media Binge.... both names have MEDIA included so therefore I assume he is attempting to be a media outlet

The fact that it has 'media' in it does not imply that it is a media outlet. It is simply a website where Jim and his colleagues can post things on various topics that could be news, rumor, or simply opinion.

Also, It's really interesting that your posts here at WDWMagic have been so pro disney corporate, but yet you defend JHM who is anti disney corporate. Seems confusing to me.

It is true that most of the time, I am pro Disney. I usually support Disney on most things. However, if Disney messes up, I am willing to acknowledge it. Besides, this isn't a coorperate or company decision, this was a decision of Disneyland officials (or possibly just managers).

(although I'm not sure I understand your avitar Michael, I hope it is just because he has the same name as you or something funny like that!). It saddens me to see so many closed minded people trying to stick up for anything that says Disney on it, even if it isn't in the right.

For the most part, I will support Disney, but that is because I agree with what they are doing. If Disney messes up (in a case like this), I am more than willing to say so. As for the avatar, it is not a joke. I do support Michael Eisner.

-Michael

 

[Ashitaka]

Also, O-Meon has a full account of the story, here.

This article is most helpful.

Why did the women think he was the official tour they were looking for? They asked Jim, "Is this the tour?" and Jim, waiting for three people who were late for his tour, said "Yes, this is the tour." So basically. he told them he was the tour. How were they to know there are unofficial tours of the parks too?

After the tour, as they had not gotten the lunch that was supposed to be included in their official tour and not caring for the content, they went and complained about this "official" tour.

 

[MKCustodial]

What about the dozens of other tours given at both Disneyland and WDW. Everything from Foreign Tour Groups to MouseAdventure would have to be shut down.

Hey, good point! I hadn't thought about that. I mean, people down here do pay someone not related to Disney to take them to WDW and guide them throughout the parks, and they tell stories. Not "inside" or "backstage" stories, but stories nonetheless. And they're aren't Disney-approved.

 

[Scruffy]

Wow,

A new made up story from Jim Hill to sell his Disneyland CDs. Think about it, Disneyland is turning 50th years old and the marketing promotion going to be high. Out of no where, some Internet writer was throw out of Disneyland for having tours that didn't agree with Disney Managment. Everybody feels sorry for him and so they buy his CDs. Jim makes some money on people who believe him.

Just to get this out of the way,

I used to like Jim way back when he was at the DIG but he lost his way big time.

 

[no2apprentice]

This has been a very interesting thread, with interesting points on both sides. I've read four articles on JHM, and I don't care for his writing style. Don't hate him, don't hate his site, I just don't care for his style. Each to their own.

Having said that, I would have liked to have been the Orange County detective and asked Mr. Hill for his copy of his Orange County business license to conduct paid tours, and the letter granting him permission to conduct tours on Disneyland property.

Just to see the look on his face.

But, hey, each to their own.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Oh thats funny.....

 

[mkt]

that'd be really funny

 

[AEfx]

To begin with, if you want to argue logical points, the discussion ends with "Disneyland is Private Property". That's all that needs to be said. Jim Hill was illegally making money off of the mouse any way you cut it - you cannot charge people to give tours of private property you are not offically authorized to. End of story.

What about the dozens of other tours given at both Disneyland and WDW. Everything from Foreign Tour Groups to MouseAdventure would have to be shut down.

LOL, so which columnist at JHM are you?

They wouldn't HAVE to be shut down. Disneyland is not a democracy, it doesn't have to be tit for tat. As private property, Disney has sole discretion - if you look at them funny they are within their rights to remove you or not. People keep forgetting this.

However, that doesn't matter - as community events like MouseFest, etc., don't directly charge people for goods in the parks as JH does. That's a SCARE tactic that JHM would like you to believe, "Oh gosh! Anyone who assembles groups at Disney is gonna suffer!"

Anyone who walks around a Disney park charging people to hear them say negative (or, things not offically approved) is going to have to worry. Everyone else will be fine.

In fact, hopefully Disney will work to further legitimize things like MouseFest and keep those who try to make a buck off Disney, like 'ol Jim Hill, away. I'm sorry, but his articles and tabloid journalism totally aside, it has never sat well with me (nor seemed legal at all) that he could charge people to hear him rant about Disney, ON Disney property. That's like expecting a fur manufacurer to allow PETA to host tours of it's factories.

This doesn't set a precedent for anything but people who come into the parks, act authoritative, and then have the you-know-whats to charge people to listen.

If Jim Hill were some kindly old man that just wanted to share his love and lore of Disney, out of the goodness of his heart, I'd be flying into John Wayne tomorrow and start the picket line myself. That isn't what happened. He was charging for it, which changes everything.

I don't think fans have to worry, as long as they don't try to directly involve the mouse in their money making activities. If you do, you have been warned.

Scare tactics only work on those who believe the hype, which, as JHM has taught us over and over, is something you can't buy from him (although I'm sure he wishes we would).

I mean, how unreasonable can Disney be, expecting to protect their image from someone who has spit and stomped on them in public for years yet expects to walk through the gates and do it right in their face?

Jim Hill WISHES he were banned from Disney, it would make a better story. And he'd like us to think there are some huge, far-reaching political ramifications, but there aren't to anyone who isn't doing something wrong to begin with.

AEfx

 

[askmike1]

However, that doesn't matter - as community events like MouseFest, etc., don't directly charge people for goods in the parks as JH does. That's a SCARE tactic that JHM would like you to believe, "Oh gosh! Anyone who assembles groups at Disney is gonna suffer!"
AEfx

Explain to me the difference between the JHM tour and MF (besides content) because maybe I'm missing something. You have to pay for both of them. Money is not exchanged on property. MF is beforehand and JHM is through Mousketrips. Besides that initial fee, neither charges you for anything else. For JHM, there is no lunch, anything the people want to buy, they do on their own. If I am missing something, and money was the difference, all Jim would have to do is change to suggested donations. JHM tours are also not negative. And they are not secret stories that could ruin Disney. He simply talks about things that could of happened, but didn't. The fact that Disneyland didn't even investigate the tours is what bothers me. They are going soley on what the 3 women said. I mean, there are people who think Small World is offensive. They really should have found out more about the tours instead of bringing in the police. I mean, this article is found on so many internet sites.

-Michael

 

[AEfx]

Explain to me the difference between the JHM tour and MF (besides content) because maybe I'm missing something. You have to pay for both of them. Money is not exchanged on property. MF is beforehand and JHM is through Mousketrips. Besides that initial fee, neither charges you for anything else. For JHM, there is no lunch, anything the people want to buy, they do on their own. If I am missing something, and money was the difference, all Jim would have to do is change to suggested donations. JHM tours are also not negative. And they are not secret stories that could ruin Disney. He simply talks about things that could of happened, but didn't. The fact that Disneyland didn't even investigate the tours is what bothers me. They are going soley on what the 3 women said. I mean, there are people who think Small World is offensive. They really should have found out more about the tours instead of bringing in the police. I mean, this article is found on so many internet sites.

-Michael

MouseFest is a group of fans getting together and offically organizing, not a single person shilling services. It is irrelevant that JH doesn't take money AT the parks, he still is exchanging cash for his "services".

However, I'm sorry that some people are so immersed in Disney fandom to get this (you certainly aren't the only one), but saying, "Wow, this really great attraction was going to be built here, but budget cuts happened and now you are left with this." is VERY negative.

When someone just paid a couple of thousand bucks for a Disney vacation, many of them would find it negative for some guy to be yelling about how they could have been on a much better attraction but it will never be.

Do you really not see how the Disney people might find this negative?

And I'm sure Disney was very aware of Hill's content, but as many have pointed out, most companies don't do something about a problem unless it's reported. Once a complaint has been lodged, they respond, as happened here.

This is all so cut and dry, but people would like you to believe there is grey. Disney was absolutely, fully within their rights. Jim Hill was doing something that apparently others do (give paid tours), but he was being negative about the parks even if it's just by telling people "what could have been" (yet my experience reading Hill tells me it likely went deeper than that). To us as fans that's interesting, but to your average park guest that is something they don't want to hear and as someone who ran a company I'd REALLY not want people asking people to PAY him to stand in front of said attraction to do so.

You can't bite the hand that feeds you constantly and not expect to be swatted away eventually. To expect the mouse to support such a thing is folly.

I just wish I could have been there to see it.

AEfx

 

[askmike1]

MouseFest is a group of fans getting together and offically organizing, not a single person shilling services. It is irrelevant that JH doesn't take money AT the parks, he still is exchanging cash for his "services".

In both cases, the people are paying to be part of it. Both were organized by a single person and involved a website. I still see no difference between the two. (Legal-wise)

"Wow, this really great attraction was going to be built here, but budget cuts happened and now you are left with this." is VERY negative.

This is not negative. He is not saying anything bad about Disneyland, he is simply telling stories of attractions that could have been. He is not saying anything negative about the park or the attractions existing.

When someone just paid a couple of thousand bucks for a Disney vacation, many of them would find it negative for some guy to be yelling about how they could have been on a much better attraction but it will never be

First of all, Jim is not being any louder or quieter than the official Disney tour guide. And what if people who go to DL/WDW and overhear an official tour. That is no different. In fact, an official tour can be worse because it tells the people 'backstage' things about the park. Jim does not reveal anything that would ruin the magic.

-Michael

 

[AEfx]

/sigh

You just don't get it. Don't be so blinded by your love of Hill.

In both cases, the people are paying to be part of it. Both were organized by a single person and involved a website. I still see no difference between the two. (Legal-wise)

They certainly are different. "Mouse Fest" is a community effort and no one is charging directly for a service that is otherwise available at Disneyland. "Jim Hill Tours" are just a guy charging people for tours that compete with a product Disneyland sells. They also aren't bad-mouthing the mouse on their own territory (see below).

.
This is not negative. He is not saying anything bad about Disneyland, he is simply telling stories of attractions that could have been. He is not saying anything negative about the park or the attractions existing.

Again, look outside that box you are in as a Disney fan. Think of it from Disney's point of view, or that of an average guest.

Here comes a park guest into Disneyland, the happiest place on earth. They are enjoying a ride. They get off the ride and hear Jim Hill standing in front of it telling people how it almost was a much more intricate, expensive ride but they missed out and will never see it because of budget cuts.

THAT is negative. It makes Disney look bad, and makes the guest feel bad that they won't get to experience it. As a Disney fan, yes, the story may be interesting to you and I, but to most people that could ruin the magic.

To the Disney company this is especially true. Do you think a film studio would allow someone to buy a ticket to a movie and stand in front of the screen and tell you about how good the movie was before budget cuts and script doctors came in, and how the movie you are about to see is a shadow of what one guy imagined in the first place? And then have the nerve to CHARGE people to hear about it?

Can you really not see that while Jim Hill putting up articles on a website that only Disney internet geeks like ourselves read is quite another thing from standing IN THE PARK on Disney property, telling the same stories?

If you can't see that this is negative for business and the image of the Disney company, then you aren't thinking objectively.

First of all, Jim is not being any louder or quieter than the official Disney tour guide. And what if people who go to DL/WDW and overhear an official tour. That is no different. In fact, an official tour can be worse because it tells the people 'backstage' things about the park. Jim does not reveal anything that would ruin the magic.

LOL, I never said he was any louder or quieter. Not relevant. You are really reaching here.

I think many would disagree that telling people about "what could have been" ruins the magic for many. And I've only been on backstage tours at WDW and not Disneyland, but from what I understand they both generally only discuss backstage things backstage. In any case, they aren't saying "nah nah, Disney had budget cuts and you will never see this ride appear but boy, would it have been good!"

Step outside the eyes of a Disney fan and look at this objectively. One persons negative may not be anothers, but the only opinion that really matters here is that of Disney who is the owner of the property in question. You can argue you not feeling it's negative all you want, but it's Disney's opinion that counts.

AEfx

 

[askmike1]

They certainly are different. "Mouse Fest" is a community effort and no one is charging directly for a service that is otherwise available at Disneyland.

Taken directly from Mouseplanet

How do I register? When the registration period is open, we provide a link at the top of this page. We accept Visa and Mastercard; if an alternate form of payment is needed, contact Adrienne Vincent-Phoenix to discuss options.

They get off the ride and hear Jim Hill standing in front of it telling people how it almost was a much more intricate, expensive ride but they missed out and will never see it because of budget cuts.

You make it sound like he's standing on Sleeping Beauty Castle talking over the PA system. He's talking to a group of people in the same tone that other people would talk to their family on vacation. I don't want to hear some mom yelling at her kid, but do I complain about it? No.

-Michael

 

[wannab@dis]

AskMike,

You are far from winning this debate. In fact, the failure was apparent from the outset given the subject. There is no way to defend Jim Hill and his actions so you may want to quit before you hurt your idol more than he's done for himself. In addition, all you have given us recently is Jim Hill not being "louder" than other tour leaders or you not complaining about a "mom yelling at her kid". I believe it's time to call this debate complete.

Don't be too disappointed though, you were up against a tough situation. After you have been here for a while, you will probably agree with this opinion. Very few people, if any, on this board have better debating skills than AEfx. I've read many of his posts and they are always well thought out and skillfully written.

Have a Magical Day!

- wannab@dis

 

[n8patrick]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Oh my.... You are two pea's in a pod wannab and aefx. Unreal. Mike, I tend to still agree with your more honest "arguments", or rather statements of facts. It is sad to me to think there are people out there like these two. Wow, I'm speechless...

 

[HauntedPirate]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Oh my.... You are two pea's in a pod wannab and aefx. Unreal. Mike, I tend to still agree with your more honest "arguments", or rather statements of facts. It is sad to me to think there are people out there like these two. Wow, I'm speechless...

Seeing as how you are brand new to the forums (welcome, by the way!), I wouldn't recommend jumping to conclusions about two relatively veteran posters so quickly.

I'm always careful what I say when I'm in the parks, when talking to my family or the people we're there with, when regarding closures, rumors, etc. Bottom line: we don't know what JH was saying during his tour, or where. If he was, in some way, disparaging DL or management in some way or how cool a ride would've been if not for budget cuts, I have no sympathy for him. Not that I have any for him anyway, I had grown tired of reading him long before this, or the whole Grizz incident.

 

[askmike1]

AskMike,

You are far from winning this debate. In fact, the failure was apparent from the outset given the subject. There is no way to defend Jim Hill and his actions so you may want to quit before you hurt your idol more than he's done for himself. In addition, all you have given us recently is Jim Hill not being "louder" than other tour leaders or you not complaining about a "mom yelling at her kid". I believe it's time to call this debate complete.

Don't be too disappointed though, you were up against a tough situation. After you have been here for a while, you will probably agree with this opinion. Very few people, if any, on this board have better debating skills than AEfx. I've read many of his posts and they are always well thought out and skillfully written.

[sarcastic]Thank you for enlightening my life all-knowing-one.[/sarcastic] Being a good writer means absolutely nothing. If Shakespeare said that the world was flat and wrote that out in a 20 page argument, would that make him right? AEfx seems to think that Jim was shouting fire in a crowded movie theater. He was not. He was talking about matches to a group of people. (Figuratively speaking) Another thing is that guests are not going to be listening to the whole thing. The most the average guest would overhear is one sentence. When you go to Disneyland, you are constantly walking about to the next attraction. The only times when people stop is when they are eating a meal. The reason these women heard more was because they were on the tour.

Another thing is that this incident was caused by a large part pure bad timing. Jim was waiting for 3 people who were 15 minutes late. 3 women come up to Jim and ask him "Is this the tour?" They were not specific in what tour and Jim did not want to delay the tour any longer.

-Michael