Chi84
Premium Member
Change isn’t always a good thing but it’s almost always inevitable. You have to pick your battles or you’ll be constantly fighting and discontented.
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Is attendance really down at WDW this or…
- Thread starter coachb
- Start date
GhostHost1000
Premium Member
Bob’s definitely got the killing it part going
Respectfully, it can be argued that there is a deep link between the park's financial conditions today and their price hikes being caused by extreme Disney+ costs and severe studio under-performance.
The negative financial performance of other areas of the company "are" forcing parks prices to rise up to compensate for Disney's losses as a whole. It can be argued that this financial problem is the sole reason that causes this thread topic to exist at all.
Not trying to get into any trouble or get banned but is it fair to talk about the soaring parks price hikes "and" the driving forces behind what are causing them in the same forum thread?
If not,...so be it.
Disgruntled Walt
Well-Known Member
- In the Parks
- No
Good to see you back. I thought this site might self-destruct!
Dranth
Well-Known Member
They were raising prices consistently and looking for ways to monetize line skipping long before D+ every came along so this is rewriting history a bit.Respectfully, it can be argued that there is a deep link between the park's financial conditions today and their price hikes being caused by extreme Disney+ costs and severe studio under-performance.
The negative financial performance of other areas of the company "are" forcing parks prices to rise up to compensate for Disney's losses as a whole. It can be argued that this financial problem is the sole reason that causes this thread topic to exist at all.
Not trying to get into any trouble or get banned but is it fair to talk about the soaring parks price hikes "and" the driving forces behind what are causing them in the same forum thread?
If not,...so be it.
Any rational person can see attendance is below pre pandemic levels and at least part of the reason is the cost however, can anyone here, with a straight face, tell me they want to go back to a 2018/19 level of crowds?
We go the same time every year and our trips kept getting worse and worse due to overcrowding. Finally, in 2018, we had the most miserable trip we had ever taken and were done. Had it not been for Covid resetting attendance we would have never gone back. Honestly, our trips from 2016-2018 all cost a good bit less than what we paid this year and yet were a far bigger waste of money.
Attendance now is around 2012/13 levels which is where it should be until they build more actual capacity.
Laketravis
Well-Known Member
We'll be back in Orlando next month. But we didn't renew our AP's and won't be stepping foot inside WDW. No split stays, no one week there, one week here. The entire trip will be Universal.
I have no doubt they won't even notice our microscopic incremental contribition to declining attendance, but I offer a public apology to those who will see an additional hike in prices to account for the $3K or more we won't be spending but they'll have to generate just to break even. Enjoy that extra three feet of empty queue in front of you.
We plan on returning to Orlando at least two more times in 2025 - and unfortunately WDW isn't on the itinerary. We've decided to wait until after Epic opens to see how Disney responds.
I have no doubt they won't even notice our microscopic incremental contribition to declining attendance, but I offer a public apology to those who will see an additional hike in prices to account for the $3K or more we won't be spending but they'll have to generate just to break even. Enjoy that extra three feet of empty queue in front of you.
We plan on returning to Orlando at least two more times in 2025 - and unfortunately WDW isn't on the itinerary. We've decided to wait until after Epic opens to see how Disney responds.
Jrb1979
Well-Known Member
It's great for us with lower attendance. The problem is they keep raising prices to make up for that lack of attendance. I just don't know if it's sustainable.
In a way,..there are two competing interests here:
1.) "We" as guests don't want the parks crowded. The less it is the happier we are.
2.) "Burbank" needs them to be crowded for financial reasons. The more it is the happier Burbank is.
Burbank desperately needs that WDW revenue high. Shareholders are looking at Parks and Experiences VERY closely every quarter now. If Parks and Experiences fails to deliver? If the biggest cash register in the company fails? The damn will break and Wall Street will lose a lot of faith in Burbank.
Under "normal" supply & demand circumstances, if the parks are not crowded, Burbank would "invest" more into attractions and upkeep,....to entice crowd levels to go "up"...and make more money. Burbank can't afford to do this today.
Burbank doing something different. Rather than trying to "attract" more people with new attractions and maintaining beloved attractions and live entertainment, they are slashing operations costs "and" raising prices.
Their only answer to this problem is raising ARPU. (average revenue per user) Burbank is taking the laws of supply and demand and turning it upside down. Yes,..this gives them a "short-term" win today, BUT ruins brand goodwill and brand loyalty over time.
It's my guess that the number of people that are feeling ripped-off "after" their vacation is over and they see the bill?...is very high today. I suspect that there is a very high number of guests today that say:
"Yeah,..I'm home now and looking back at everything. I'm not doing THAT again for a while. It wasn't worth it!"
If this is true, what happens when all these people tell that to their friends and family? It causes others to say "nope".
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Dranth
Well-Known Member
It isn't sustainable.
On a long enough time frame, they will eventually price enough people out that it will all collapse in on itself without a major correction. However, they still aren't there yet.
LSLS
Well-Known Member
We will be in a similar boat. We will be in the area next summer, staying on or near Disney for over a week due to a conference at the Swan/Dolphin (and family wants a Florida trip), and we have no plans to visit the parks. We MIGHT visit Universal just for Epic, but even that is a question mark because those prices are pretty equally ridiculous. So with us, you have a family staying on site that will not spend money on/at the parks.
Dranth
Well-Known Member
Well, that assumes they never increase what I am going to call comfortable capacity limits (and yes, it is their fault for not already doing that). If they do that, they have options other than continual price increases which eventually will turn on them.
For now, attendance continues to remain steady post pandemic so the number of people opting out after a trip is still not outweighing the number coming in/returning.
Actually, this is not true.
Attendance is "not" remaining "steady". Burbank is 100% perfectly crystal-clear to investors and the SEC in multiple public documents. No,...attendance is absolutely "falling". (Unless you believe that Burbank is lying to the entire investment world, which is illegal and they would have zero reason to do that)
What IS true is that while attendance is thinning, ARPU (average revenue per user) is being increased. This is off-setting that attendance loss... causing overall "profits" to hold steady and flat. Burbank is 100% clear about that too in quarterly's.
If Burbank had "not" done drastic price increases and put a high focus on harvesting of app-purchases and raising ARPU, then yes,...profits would have crashed because of the guest numbers falling.
In a way? For this short term? There was nothing else Burbank "could" do but to raise prices. There is NO chance in Heck that they could have allowed the Parks and Experiences division to report quarter-over-quarter "drops" in revenue. Especially at a time when "their" revenue performance is soooo critical to the entire company.
Attendance is "not" remaining "steady". Burbank is 100% perfectly crystal-clear to investors and the SEC in multiple public documents. No,...attendance is absolutely "falling". (Unless you believe that Burbank is lying to the entire investment world, which is illegal and they would have zero reason to do that)
What IS true is that while attendance is thinning, ARPU (average revenue per user) is being increased. This is off-setting that attendance loss... causing overall "profits" to hold steady and flat. Burbank is 100% clear about that too in quarterly's.
If Burbank had "not" done drastic price increases and put a high focus on harvesting of app-purchases and raising ARPU, then yes,...profits would have crashed because of the guest numbers falling.
In a way? For this short term? There was nothing else Burbank "could" do but to raise prices. There is NO chance in Heck that they could have allowed the Parks and Experiences division to report quarter-over-quarter "drops" in revenue. Especially at a time when "their" revenue performance is soooo critical to the entire company.
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Dranth
Well-Known Member
Anything within a percentage point or two one way or the other I view as steady. Yes, the actual attendance numbers for WDW in 2024 will likely be down a bit vs 2023. The question is how much, and does it continue? I don't believe it will be that much of a drop based on their filings as it was only called out in one quarterly as a significant issue.
Just looking at domestic from last year and at WDW whenever it is called out specifically on their statements:
- Q1 - Lower operating income partially due to "Lower volumes due to decreases in attendance and occupied room nights" at WDW. So yes, in this quarter attendance was down.
- Q2 - Higher operating income from WDW, no mention of attendance drop vs. previous year as offset.
- Q3 - Lower operating income attributed to inflation, no mention of attendance drop vs. previous year as key contributor.
- Q4 - Higher operating income, no mention of attendance drop vs. previous year as offset.
All that aside we could absolutely be looking back at all this some point in the future pointing to 2024 as the year it finally broke and the decline started but I am not convinced yet because one down quarter at the start of last fiscal year is not a solid trend.
plutofan15
Well-Known Member
Sadly that ship has long since sailed.
In a fantasy world, I would love to do a "Burbank economics experiment". We could test Burbank's business model and see how it reacts. Y'know, "cause and effect".
Here is the test: The goal is to see how high we could ALL raise Walt Disney World prices! Yes!,...use Burbank's very own operations model to test and observe it's "reaction" to our "action".
We STOP going to WDW is very high numbers. I dunno, let's say a million of us in 2025 avoid WDW completely and sit back and watch Burbank raise prices higher and higher. Could we all force:
It would certainly be a fascinating and educational economics lab experiment to watch.
Here is the test: The goal is to see how high we could ALL raise Walt Disney World prices! Yes!,...use Burbank's very own operations model to test and observe it's "reaction" to our "action".
We STOP going to WDW is very high numbers. I dunno, let's say a million of us in 2025 avoid WDW completely and sit back and watch Burbank raise prices higher and higher. Could we all force:
- $50 per car parking?
- $225 per single day park ticket?
- $350 All Star Sports per night?
- $9 Coke bottle?
- $10 monorail, buss and tram rides paid on app?
- $5 per bathroom use paid on app?
- All live entertainment removed completely.
- All attractions added to the pay-app (no more standby at all for anything)
It would certainly be a fascinating and educational economics lab experiment to watch.
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
We do actually have one instance of that price ceiling being exceeded and that was the Star Cruiser. Cruises are also an interesting one to watch, DCL is quite a bit higher than competitors and maybe has gotten by due to keeping their capacity on the niche end. Though on the flip side RCL has been rapidly escalating their own prices to perhaps close that gap slightly.
I don’t think DCL will collapse, far from it, but they may need to yield a slight bit of the excessive pricing premium once the line has tripled in size.
Perhaps, somewhat optimistically, there will be a lot less pressure to keep wringing the parks on pricing since DCL is also buried in domestic experiences. DCL will organically drive most of the growth the next decade. They can revert to driving parks growth through organic attendance and capacity rather than pricing… ya, I know that’s too optimistic.
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Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
…any difference when a lot of the product you’re selling depends on nostalgia?
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That's a good point!
If you took Disney and stripped away all the nostalgia from it...what would be left behind? The most valuable asset this company has,...by far!....is it's nostalgia.
In my opinion, it's ironic that a company that relies so heavily on it's past, it's history and it's nostalgia....is being run by too many people that don't like or disagree with it's history and it's nostalgia.
Strange....
If you took Disney and stripped away all the nostalgia from it...what would be left behind? The most valuable asset this company has,...by far!....is it's nostalgia.
In my opinion, it's ironic that a company that relies so heavily on it's past, it's history and it's nostalgia....is being run by too many people that don't like or disagree with it's history and it's nostalgia.
Strange....
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
It’s the same wall I’ve been defending for years…
Disney can’t be compared to other things 1:1…
Mickey Mouse cannot
Star Wars…cannot
The management doesn’t believe it…and that…is why they’re failing