Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

Cliff

Well-Known Member
I like the more serious you! was just there yesterday and Epcot was pretty full, above normal but ive seen worse. We were going to go the Merry Christmas party at MK but at $210 a person, made me pause and do something else but guess what? it was sold out anyway without me, so people are paying for it. One thing to know is people are willing to pay for a premium experience, whether it be for a sporting event, airline seats or a vacation. I see it in places i used to go often but not anymore as they have priced me out. Little Palm Island is an example, great place but not worth $2500-$4000 a night but people are paying it. Disney realized they can do the same with less, offer premium experiences and higher food prices and if the attendance is down its better for them. Unfortunately for Disney, a lot of the people that are not there are at universal or other vacations (Europe, carribean , etc.) but when you lose these customers, hard to get them back and they realize there is another option...
Quick example of the parties over- Napa Valley Ca, was just there in October for harvest, one of their busiest times and the hotels were not full, nor the wineries. Inventories are not going down and they are just selling juice and grapes for below mkt to get rid of it. What happened? Napa priced themselves out as a bottle of cab is avg $100 or more and they are charging $150-$600 a tasting in some places and all the younger generation do not want to spend that money on wine and would rather drink spirits or go to other wine regions that are cheaper. Napa didnt see the change coming and got way over their skiis, Disney is starting to do the same.
No,...no,..no. I like the fun, irreverent, snarky, sarcastic "me" better. I have more fun with those posts than I do when I get serious. My serious posts are a downer....like this one.

I find this thing to very odd:

Many people started saying that Disney had lost touch with it's customers years ago and was beginning to go downhill. Many stated years ago that Burbank's political activism was hurting the brand and they even said that parks attendance was beginning to slow down in 2023.

Soooo many Disney fans accused these people of being Disney "haters" and "liars" that had "no clue" of what they were talking about. To large portions of Disney fans, everything was fine and Disney was in a SOLID market position. Burbank started to warn investors (for legal reasons, they need to be truthful) and wrote this in the official SEC filings to investors:

Disney told investors that the company's revenues and profits "are adversely impacted when our entertainment offerings and products, as well as our methods to make our offerings and products available to consumers, do not achieve sufficient consumer acceptance. Further, consumers’ perceptions of our positions on matters of public interest, including our efforts to achieve certain of our environmental and social goals, often differ widely, and present risks to our reputation and brands."

Burbank was admitting their critics WERE correct! For multiple quarters, Burbank openly ADMITTED that parks attendance was slowing. They publically said this over and over again. Meanwhile, many, MANY fans said: "Nope, the parks attendance is perfectly FINE and anybody that says otherwise is a horrible, Disney-hating liar" People even said: "Parks are not slowing,..I was just there and it was PACKED, I saw it with my own two eyes,..so it's ALL just crazy un-true hater-talk"

Burbank has made this fact painfully clear that parks attendance is slowing down AND have even made predictions warning investors...in advance,..that their parks will be down in 2025. And yet again,...people will continue to refute this concept with every fiber of their soul. Do these fans really think that Burbank would lie to the world about this? Really? Why do so many Disney fans deny this concept: The parks ARE slowing down. This a 100% fact and it's OK for fans to finally accept this as a hard truth.

Parks attendance decline is an aggregated number based on weeks and months and quarters of calculations. It's also based on month numbers across different years. Example How did Oct 2024 compare to Oct 2023 or Oct 2022 or Oct 2021...etc. Nobody can go for a day or week and "see" those numbers from "their" individual trip. Nobody can "see" these numbers with their eyes in the parks that Disney collects

This is what I think: Burbank has been rotten for 5 years. (The downfall began before that,..right about when Fox was purchased) It's being run by people who do NOT love this company. They have made DOZENS of horrifically bad business decisions in the parks and in the studios. (Lucasfilm, Pixar and Marvel) They have WAY OVER-spent on Disney+....maybe 5 times more than they should have. They wrongfully expected it to be a giant money-maker and the exact OPPOSITE has happened. Burbank has taken the BEST money-maker they have,...the parks,..and CRIPPLED their ability to help the company in the future. They destroyed EPCOT first and now they are destroying Magic Kingdom next. (River of America and more)
They have (supposed) "big turbo-charge" plans for the parks "tomorrow"...but no money yet for daily operations and proper maintenance of these parks TODAY.

Seriously Burbank?...if you have to SEVERLY over-charge slumping numbers of guests for everything and slash park maintenance?.... just to balance your books and keep profits FLAT?....how are you going to get the money to build all these billions in new park ideas in the future? Burbank needs to be CLEANED out. Put in new people that actually love the company and won't blow billions and billions on B.S. things that don't really help the company brand!!!

Uggg,...no more serious posts. I'm going back to the irreverent, snarky, sarcastic, fun "me".
 
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GhostHost1000

Premium Member
Yeah. Poly, Contemporary and Floridian "need" that monorail. Will Disney make those people walk to the parks? The Ferry boats have been beefed-up in the past two years with the new docks and I'm guessing that those boats could be the primary way to get all TTC folks into MK and back.

We know that Burbank is scrounging for every penny in daily cost savings and revenue generation,...so what if:

1.) Burbank cuts the TTC trains to MK and forces all guests to ride the ferry. (free,... for now)
2.) Keep only the resort loop running.
3.) Remove the entire Epcot line forever.

This will drastically cut down the number of trains needed to be revamped and maintained. Track maintenance and daily staffing will be hugely reduced. Basically, the only people that will ever ride the monorail again would be those hotel guests.

This "would" allow the iconic "Disney Monorail" to exist "visually" for WDW guests and it can still be used for marketing. However, maybe the daily operational cost could be 25% of what would be needed for an entire system revamp??

Not joking on this too: "Free" bus rides and parking tram rides could also end as well. Charging for every Buss and tram ride on the app is a legitimate way that Burbank can recover transportation spending costs and even make a bit of profit too. I don't like it...but $10 per person per ride seems to be a plausible "Disney charge" amount.

Burbank can't afford to put dollars every day into services without seeing any "specific" dollars returning back from each investment. I think that we can all expect that those days are gone and they are not returning again.

The Disney app has proven itself to be a superb "cash register" for Disney and "one touch spending" is keeping is everything now.

P&L = Profit and loss - Spend the least possible money on daily park upkeep and labor to increase profit margins.
ARPU = Average revenue per user - Squeeze every single penny possible from guests to increase proft margins.

We can all debate the reasons why we got here today. Doesn't matter anymore. This is where we are now.
The day Disney begins charging for bus transportation to/from parks and resorts is the day they might as well put up the going out of business sign
 

Cliff

Well-Known Member
The day Disney begins charging for bus transportation to/from parks and resorts is the day they might as well put up the going out of business sign
It very well could be necessary. Who knows?

Maybe I'm being too hard on the fine folks in Burbank. These folks in Burbank seem to be very intelligent, ivy League-educated market experts. These are the BEST of the best on paper.

Well? Burbank DID invest quite a lot of effort into the new "Snow White" movie. They say "This is the story that started it all". Judging by the cool "Snow White" trailers they made, Burbank seems to be VERY proud of their new masterpiece.

Analysts expect the "Snow White" movie budget to be about 300-400 million (including massive reshoots) with a 150-200 million marketing budget. If they spent 600 million to make it and they do 1 billion in the box office? Theaters keep half and Burbank keeps half...the movie only loses 100 million. Well see...

Burbank is very smart and they would NOT have spent sooo much money on "Snow White" if it was not going to be amazing. I'm going to have to trust Burbank on this. It's going to be a hit. "Captain America 4" too!!!

If so,...maybe that could take some of the financial pressure off our parks...right?

Let's all cheer together: "Gooooooooo Studiooooos!!!!!"
 
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Sirwalterraleigh

Premium Member
They’ve kind of boxed themselves in from an operational/infrastructural standpoint, no? Unless they build a massive parking structure elsewhere adjacent to the MK?

That doesn’t even touch on the issue of how it would affect the propped up values of the Monorail resorts.
They could just yank them and bus.

“No…they couldn’t!! 😱

Dare them…because they continually sell sand to Saudis…metaphorically speaking
As a Pirates fan, he could have gone there. Not sure Disney has hit that basement yet though......
My condolences on Nutting😎
 

Mr. Sullivan

Well-Known Member
First couple are bombs

Avatar and zoootopia pretty bankable
Yeah, I don't foresee Captain America and Snow White doing super well. Thunderbolts* I think has a chance because it's trailer got a fantastic response and if the movie itself is on par, it's word of mouth will be strong. Hate to say it but I think Lilo & Stitch live action will be a pretty easy hit.

Elio, I can't really tell? Original animation is hard to gauge at the moment, no matter the quality. Fantastic Four will be an easy smash if it's good in my opinion. It just needs to be good, but that is a big question hanging over it. Freakier Friday could go either way, Tron Aries could go either way. Predator will do okay I think.

And like you said, Zootopia and Avatar will be pretty easy wins.
 

Cliff

Well-Known Member
It's less than 300. Far less than 400. It's still high for what it is, but not that high.
Very few people have the actual number. Wouldn't be surprised if Burbank doesn't even know for sure yet...hehe.

Yeah, the budget has a lot of wild rumors out there. Especially with all the reshoots. Anybody want to guess if this movie breaks even? If it does, that would be a huge win for Burbank.

Heck,...maybe if it does REALLY well, Burbank could trash the "old-style" Snow White, "Seven Dwarves Mine Train" coaster and re-skin it into the "modern" Snow White look!

How cool would that be? Anybody here up for that?
 

Chi84

Premium Member
Heck,...maybe if it does REALLY well, Burbank could trash the "old-style" Snow White, "Seven Dwarves Mine Train" coaster and re-skin it into the "modern" Snow White look!
From the trailers, Snow White and the dwarfs look pretty similar to the characters in the old movie.

What do you mean when you say the modern Snow White look?
 

Cliff

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I don't foresee Captain America and Snow White doing super well. Thunderbolts* I think has a chance because it's trailer got a fantastic response and if the movie itself is on par, it's word of mouth will be strong. Hate to say it but I think Lilo & Stitch live action will be a pretty easy hit.

Elio, I can't really tell? Original animation is hard to gauge at the moment, no matter the quality. Fantastic Four will be an easy smash if it's good in my opinion. It just needs to be good, but that is a big question hanging over it. Freakier Friday could go either way, Tron Aries could go either way. Predator will do okay I think.

And like you said, Zootopia and Avatar will be pretty easy wins.
Avatar could be huge but as I understand it, it's not a "Disney" movie. It's a "LightStorm" movie and James Cameron get's the lions share of it. Disney is only the distributor of the movie so they only get a smaller "distribution" cut.

James Cameron had those contracts finished with 20th Century FOX and when Disney purchased FOX, they only got access to what FOX had made the deal with James Cameron on.

As I understand it, James Cameron has 100% control of "his" movies and Burbank is out in the cold on it. Bobby Iger seems to LOVE "bragging" about Avatar but Bobby Iger is NOT in charge...at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong?
 

Cliff

Well-Known Member
From the trailers, Snow White and the dwarfs look pretty similar to the characters in the old movie.

What do you mean when you say the modern Snow White look?
Zegler, Gadot, dwarves the prince and Snow White's new social justice warrior power theme?

I dunno yet,...gotta see the movie.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
Avatar could be huge but as I understand it, it's not a "Disney" movie. It's a "LightStorm" movie and James Cameron get's the lions share of it. Disney is only the distributor of the movie so they only get a smaller "distribution" cut.

James Cameron had those contracts finished with 20th Century FOX and when Disney purchased FOX, they only got access to what FOX had made the deal with James Cameron on.

As I understand it, James Cameron has 100% control of "his" movies and Burbank is out in the cold on it. Bobby Iger seems to LOVE "bragging" about Avatar but Bobby Iger is NOT in charge...at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong?

Cameron got most of his payout through participation, the movie was financed by Disney and Disney still made half a billion.

Also it’s fairly well documented Iger is one of the few executives Cameron takes notes from. He gave him an award after all just this year, they seem cozy.


IMG_3144.jpeg
 

Cliff

Well-Known Member
C'mon guys,...if we don't get STRONG studio box office revenue in 2025...the parks are going to get squeezed even HARDER in 2025 for every penny.

Burbank is going to flip the whole WDW "sofa" upside down and shake it REALLY HARD to see if they can get some more coins to drop on the floor.

If we love Disney parks,...each of us on this form better go to the theaters and watch EVERY Disney movie,..more then once...and help get those ticket sales up. If we don't,..Burbank will squeeze WDW like a lemon in a vice.

Let's do it guys,...do it for the parks we love so much. (used to love)
 

Cliff

Well-Known Member
Cameron got most of his payout through participation, the movie was financed by Disney and Disney still made half a billion.

Also it’s fairly well documented Iger is one of the few executives Cameron takes notes from. He gave him an award after all just this year, they seem cozy.


View attachment 830919
Interesting. James Cameron is notorious for being stubborn and hard-headed! I wonder if there is a difference between "James Cameron" and "LightStorm" in all this in terms of money collection.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
Interesting. James Cameron is notorious for being stubborn and hard-headed! I wonder if there is a difference between "James Cameron" and "LightStorm" in all this in terms of money collection.

Yup, Cameron pocketed 95mil himself in estimation.

I think Bob’s negotiation with Cameron for the park rights has a lot to do with it. This really seems to be Cameron’s magnum opus in his eyes and investing in the franchise on the earlier end seems to have worked. Plus Jon Landau had a great relationship with imagineering coming off the first project.

James Cameron seems to keep a tight circle, but the people he likes he retains fiercely.

The next production has the benefit of a down to earth production budget too. Avatar 2 was really a potential major disaster.
 

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