Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[Chi84]

And we’ve got an average of 20 years left, so there’s math.

Either find something to complain about or get out! What's wrong with you?

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Ok hear me out…and I know this is crazy…but what if Disney actually managed and planned out their theme parks better where there weren’t attendance drops and the need to massively increase prices to make up for their failures?

You can’t plan for irrational boycotts. Look at any Disney social media post and see silly comments like, “Disney nope!” and “Go woke go broke!”

 

[Chi84]

You can’t plan for irrational boycotts. Look at any Disney social media post and see silly comments like, “Disney nope!” and “Go woke go broke!”

Okay, when someone expressly prefaces a thought with "I know this is crazy," a planned irrational boycott makes sense in that world. Keep up.

 

[Cliff]

Ok hear me out…and I know this is crazy…but what if Disney actually managed and planned out their theme parks better where there weren’t attendance drops and the need to massively increase prices to make up for their failures?

Parks and Experiences are not managed today for their own profit and loss numbers. They are managed specifically to bring in MAXIMUM...possible...profit so that it can be REMOVED "away" from the parks to prop up the other failing areas of the company.

I don't know if Disney has ever needed to lean this hard on parks to survive in the past 30 years. Movies, merchandise, cable, linear TV and ad-sales were BOOMING STRONG in the 1990's - 2020. Every Disney division was bringing in it's own fair share of excellent profit.

Today, it's NOT like that.

Disney Plus = 15+ billion paid. (First dollar profit this year. Now they have to recover that 15 billion lost over time)
Fox purchase = 72 billion paid. (Worth it? Many don't think so. Some say Bob Iger over-payed 30 billion)
HULU purchase = 9+ billion paid. (Disney was forced to.)
Pandemic survival loans = ? Billion

Burbank as a lot of debt to service every day....and what did Bob Iger get for all of that spending and debt?

Parks and experiences ARE the largest and best "cash register" the company has today...BY FAR. (Only if they keep park operational spending low and prices high)

Nelson Peltz DID say early this year that Burbank was over-harvesting Park profits and leaning on the Parks and Experiences WAY too hard. I think he is right.

 

[GhostHost1000]

Parks and Experiences are not managed today for their own profit and loss numbers. They are managed specifically to bring in MAXIMUM...possible...profit so that it can be REMOVED "away" from the parks to prop up the other failing areas of the company.

I don't know if Disney has ever needed to lean this hard on parks to survive in the past 30 years. Movies, merchandise, cable, linear TV and ad-sales were BOOMING STRONG in the 1990's - 2020. Every Disney division was bringing in it's own fair share of excellent profit.

Today, it's NOT like that.

Disney Plus = 15+ billion paid. (First dollar profit this year. Now they have to recover that 15 billion lost over time)
Fox purchase = 72 billion paid. (Worth it? Many don't think so. Some say Bob Iger over-payed 30 billion)
HULU purchase = 9+ billion paid. (Disney was forced to.)
Pandemic survival loans = ? Billion

Burbank as a lot of debt to service every day....and what did Bob Iger get for all of that spending and debt?

Parks and experiences ARE the largest and best "cash register" the company has today...BY FAR. (Only if they keep park operational spending low and prices high)

Nelson Peltz DID say early this year that Burbank was over-harvesting Park profits and leaning on the Parks and Experiences WAY too hard. I think he is right.

If only the Disney Parks and Resorts didn’t have to fund all the other company failures….and Bob’s yachts

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

OK,..I'm switching to "serious" mode now. (I hate doing that)

Yes, prices are extremely high but what else do you want Burbank to do?

1.) Attendance drops. (Burbank has publicly stated this SEVERAL times and this is a concrete fact)
2.) ARPU (average revenue per user) go UP to compensate for the profit loss.
3.) Attendance drops further.
4) Burbank raises prices even higher to compensate.
5) Wash, rinse, repeat...a true "vicious circle".

Ironically!,...this IS paying off for Burbank. Disney is reporting that attendance is dropping "BUT" revenue is holding flat "because" guests that DO go,..ARE...paying the higher and higher costs. This tactic is leading to no significant bottom-line profit loss for Parks and Experiences division, as a whole.

Can you blame Burbank now? Nope!

Amidst falling and falling people numbers.
Amidst larger and larger daily operations and attraction maintenance cuts.
Amidst deeper cuts in live entertainment.
Amidst extreme price hikes for tickets, food, and merchandise.

Burbank has managed to pull a financial rabbit out of the hat and hold bottom-line revenue steady.

Look,... "legacy" fans are able to see what has been thrown away in the past decade. We know how things "used to be". Today's modern fans don't know what "we" know. They are there to take selfies in front of the castle for Instagram or TikTok. They are there to look cool and "flex" on social media. They are just happy to BE there in general. Most "normie" guests don't give a damn about ANYTHING that "we" care about and talk about on this forum.

99% of park guests today do NOT know the names "Tony Baxter" or "Joe Rhode" or "Marty Sklar". Yes, these people DO know who Walt Disney is but 99% could NOT tell you the name of Walt's brother. These are the giant masses of people that Burbank is counting on to float the parks...and they are right. It's working.

Statistically speaking, our complaints about the degradation of parks quality over the years falls on deaf ears in Burbank. They...don't...need...people...like...us. Burbank is NOT run by people who think like "WE" do anymore. They are not "fans" like us anymore. Those "legacy" employees have been pushed out and run away in the last 10 years by executives who do NOT care about the LEGACY of this company in the way "we" do on this forum! Many in Burbank today actually have literal DISDAIN for Disney's past and would rather see it swept under the carpet.

Many creatives that made Disney Parks what they are were hired by Universal or other entertainment companies. Burbank did not value them or care about them and THAT is why you are seeing a giant and sudden explosion of creativity from Universal and other theme park and IAAPA industry groups.

It's the "know-nothing, normie" people that Disney is aiming for,..not us and Disney is successfully hitting it's target.

In my opinion,...It's sad but true.

This is indeed what is happening

The “swirl the drain” philosophy

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

If there is no pride in product and static revenue is preferred, this is the path DIS will take.

Take the Bengals tears ago, ticket sales were great and profits were excellent but the team absolutely sucked.

Why spend money to improve the team or facility when profits are entirely acceptable?

Wow…you went “bengals”?

Yikes

 

[Cliff]

Look,...in 2025, I think this problem is going to get worse. What are we hearing now?

The Monorail track and trains are being safety inspected and there is talk that SIGNIFICANT cost "could" be necessary to get the old trains and track up to speed. This is all a RUMOR folks...but, there is "chatter" that Burbank is discussing the viability of even having the monorail anymore. How necessary is it vs how much will it cost to revamp?

Supposedly, they are weighing out the pros and cons of spending all that maintenance money needed. Think about it! (Again folks, this is money they DON'T want to spend and money they want to move to other company areas)

• Does the Monorail bring in a "quantifiable" profit value number? (nope, it's all guesswork?)
• Does the daily operational cost justify having it? (depends on the cost amount?)
• Will Lagoon hotels thrive without it? (I think the monorail is required for that loop?)
• Can the Epcot loop be shut down to save HUGE cost? (Possibly, yes but that would anger me!)
• Can Burbank charge each monorail ride on the app to cover costs? (Sure, $10 per person per ride?)

"If" this discussion "IS" happening in Burbank? Then yes, this goes to show how bad Burbank needs to milk every PENNY OUT of the parks today.

Hey Burbank, I have some other suggestions for you:

• Busses are free today. Maybe you could charge $10 per person, per ride on the Disney app-pay
• The Ferry is free. Do the same $10 Disney app-pay to ride. (create a walk path to MK from TTC for non-payers)
• Parking trams are free. Charge $10 per ride on the Disney app-pay too? (Just walk to the TTC if you don't want to pay)

There are MANY untapped sources of revenue that Burbank could do to raise ARPU. (average revenue per user)

If the Monorail was gone, would the parks "lose" ANY ACTUAL "profit" because of that? If the monorail cost 1 billion to renovate but the parks only lost $500 million in revenue over time by "not" having it?...Burbank SAVES $500 million.

See?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Look,...in 2025, I think this problem is going to get worse. What are we hearing now?

The Monorail track and trains are being safety inspected and there is talk that SIGNIFICANT cost "could" be necessary to get the old trains and track up to speed. This is all a RUMOR folks...but, there is "chatter" that Burbank is discussing the viability of even having the monorail anymore. How necessary is it vs how much will it cost to revamp?

Supposedly, they are weighing out the pros and cons of spending all that maintenance money needed. Think about it! (Again folks, this is money they DON'T want to spend and money they want to move to other company areas)

• Does the Monorail bring in a "quantifiable" profit value number? (nope, it's all guesswork?)
• Does the daily operational cost justify having it? (depends on the cost amount?)
• Will Lagoon hotels thrive without it? (I think the monorail is required for that loop?)
• Can the Epcot loop be shut down to save HUGE cost? (Possibly, yes but that would anger me!)
• Can Burbank charge each monorail ride on the app to cover costs? (Sure, $10 per person per ride?)

"If" this discussion "IS" happening in Burbank? Then yes, this goes to show how bad Burbank needs to milk every PENNY OUT of the parks today.

Hey Burbank, I have some other suggestions for you:

• Busses are free today. Maybe you could charge $10 per person, per ride on the Disney app-pay
• The Ferry is free. Do the same $10 Disney app-pay to ride. (create a walk path to MK from TTC for non-payers)
• Parking trams are free. Charge $10 per ride on the Disney app-pay too? (Just walk to the TTC if you don't want to pay)

There are MANY untapped sources of revenue that Burbank could do to raise ARPU. (average revenue per user)

If the Monorail was gone, would the parks "lose" ANY ACTUAL "profit" because of that? If the monorail cost 1 billion to renovate but the parks only lost $500 million in revenue over time by "not" having it?...Burbank SAVES $500 million.

See?

…I’ve long said that it’s days are numbered

They will NEVER pay to replace that system and it would be necessary…no machine/stucture last forever

 

[HauntedPirate]

You can’t plan for irrational boycotts. Look at any Disney social media post and see silly comments like, “Disney nope!” and “Go woke go broke!”

Comments from people who weren't going in all likelihood anyway. You can try to pin attendance declines on them but will fail to address any actual problems.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

You can’t plan for irrational boycotts. Look at any Disney social media post and see silly comments like, “Disney nope!” and “Go woke go broke!”

That’s what you really think is going on here?

Comments from people who weren't going in all likelihood anyway. You can try to pin attendance declines on them but will fail to address any actual problems.

 

[Trauma]

I have a big family trip coming up to the swamps in less than a month. I think after this though my next trips will be to Japan until TDO turns things around.

Maybe I’ll talk to @Sirwalterraleigh and he will recommend a good cruise.

The amount of money I’m spending for what I’m getting just doesn’t add up anymore.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I have a big family trip coming up to the swamps in less than a month. I think after this though my next trips will be to Japan until TDO turns things around.

Maybe I’ll talk to @Sirwalterraleigh and he will recommend a good cruise.

The amount of money I’m spending for what I’m getting just doesn’t add up anymore.

It’s just the trajectory they’ve pursued…

Declining value with incessant price increases

Rep and nostalgia only take you so far

 

[Trauma]

It’s just the trajectory they’ve pursued…

Declining value with incessant price increases

Rep and nostalgia only take you so far

I think learning to speak Japanese in my free time will be fun anyways. So it’s not all bad.

 

[Grimley1968]

Wow…you went “bengals”?

Yikes

Ahem, it's Bungles.

This is what I call the team I've supported since the mid-70's because, well, that's what they do. One of the worst defenses of all time this year, yet they are 8 figures below the salary cap that obviously should have gone for some defensive help. They are in the process of wasting a once-in-a-generation QB. I blame the Mike Brown ownership more than anything. His last name is legendary, but he has no idea what he's doing.

Sorry, off topic. But the mentality of Bungles ownership is strikingly familiar to legacy Disney fans disappointed with the current state of the parks.

 

[HauntedPirate]

Ahem, it's Bungles.

This is what I call the team I've supported since the mid-70's because, well, that's what they do. One of the worst defenses of all time this year, yet they are 8 figures below the salary cap that obviously should have gone for some defensive help. They are in the process of wasting a once-in-a-generation QB. I blame the Mike Brown ownership more than anything. His last name is legendary, but he has no idea what he's doing.

Sorry, off topic. But the mentality of Bungles ownership is strikingly familiar to legacy Disney fans disappointed with the current state of the parks.

I'd go as far to say wasting one of the best QB/WR combos of the last decade.

I have a big family trip coming up to the swamps in less than a month. I think after this though my next trips will be to Japan until TDO turns things around.

Maybe I’ll talk to @Sirwalterraleigh and he will recommend a good cruise.

The amount of money I’m spending for what I’m getting just doesn’t add up anymore.

My 2 cents: Royal is a good "gateway" cruise, from what I understand, the "I have to try this at least once" kind of thing. Their private island is really good, although the water park is an extra charge. Norwegian seems decently priced but is lacking something. Celebrity and Princess are well-reviewed amongst travel professionals I know.

 

[Tha Realest]

…I’ve long said that it’s days are numbered

They will NEVER pay to replace that system and it would be necessary…no machine/stucture last forever

They’ve kind of boxed themselves in from an operational/infrastructural standpoint, no? Unless they build a massive parking structure elsewhere adjacent to the MK?

That doesn’t even touch on the issue of how it would affect the propped up values of the Monorail resorts.

 

[hismattjesty]

Wow…you went “bengals”?

Yikes

As a Pirates fan, he could have gone there. Not sure Disney has hit that basement yet though......

 

[Cliff]

They’ve kind of boxed themselves in from an operational/infrastructural standpoint, no? Unless they build a massive parking structure elsewhere adjacent to the MK?

That doesn’t even touch on the issue of how it would affect the propped up values of the Monorail resorts.

Yeah. Poly, Contemporary and Floridian "need" that monorail. Will Disney make those people walk to the parks? The Ferry boats have been beefed-up in the past two years with the new docks and I'm guessing that those boats could be the primary way to get all TTC folks into MK and back.

We know that Burbank is scrounging for every penny in daily cost savings and revenue generation,...so what if:

1.) Burbank cuts the TTC trains to MK and forces all guests to ride the ferry. (free,... for now)
2.) Keep only the resort loop running.
3.) Remove the entire Epcot line forever.

This will drastically cut down the number of trains needed to be revamped and maintained. Track maintenance and daily staffing will be hugely reduced. Basically, the only people that will ever ride the monorail again would be those hotel guests.

This "would" allow the iconic "Disney Monorail" to exist "visually" for WDW guests and it can still be used for marketing. However, maybe the daily operational cost could be 25% of what would be needed for an entire system revamp??

Not joking on this too: "Free" bus rides and parking tram rides could also end as well. Charging for every Buss and tram ride on the app is a legitimate way that Burbank can recover transportation spending costs and even make a bit of profit too. I don't like it...but $10 per person per ride seems to be a plausible "Disney charge" amount.

Burbank can't afford to put dollars every day into services without seeing any "specific" dollars returning back from each investment. I think that we can all expect that those days are gone and they are not returning again.

The Disney app has proven itself to be a superb "cash register" for Disney and "one touch spending" is keeping is everything now.

P&L = Profit and loss - Spend the least possible money on daily park upkeep and labor to increase profit margins.
ARPU = Average revenue per user - Squeeze every single penny possible from guests to increase proft margins.

We can all debate the reasons why we got here today. Doesn't matter anymore. This is where we are now.

 

[tpoly88]

Good point.

I think that Burbank is only asking the question: "What do the masses of "normie" fans care about?" and the answer they found was "They want easy movie IP and nothing more". Burbank is only reaching for the low-hanging fruit on the tree. Well?...yeah, there is soooo much of it to take, why not? Traditional Disney "quality" is not needed anymore. Burbank doesn't need to work hard and spend a TON of money to impress "most" people anymore. "Legacy fans" have VERY HIGH standards because we were programed by the greats of Disney's past to do that!! However, Burbank figured out that today's "modern" fans are MUCH easier to please. They can easily,..I mean: EASILY impress the masses of "normies" with MUCH less cost and effort and bring in a higher profit margins.

The people in this forum are NOT the people that Burbank is trying to impress today. We are just a 1% slice of the REAL audience they want. So far,...it's working. The parks today are holding and they are considered successful...even with all of the deep quality problems they have.

Those future D23 Blue Sky announcements? Let's all watch what happens. That Monsters Inc land? I bet you that budgets start out healthy, then each construction quarter that goes by, they slash more and more money out of it. We KNOW that by the end, it will STILL go WAAAY over budget and will not look HALF as good as we expected it to from the original ideas. Yes,...this will happen to every single D23 announcement. For those of us that closely watch this stuff,...you know it's true.

But,...statistically speaking, virtually nobody cares...right? Normies will LOVE everything they build and Burbank will pat itself on the back and call itself great.

Oh well,...It is what it is.

I like the more serious you! was just there yesterday and Epcot was pretty full, above normal but ive seen worse. We were going to go the Merry Christmas party at MK but at $210 a person, made me pause and do something else but guess what? it was sold out anyway without me, so people are paying for it. One thing to know is people are willing to pay for a premium experience, whether it be for a sporting event, airline seats or a vacation. I see it in places i used to go often but not anymore as they have priced me out. Little Palm Island is an example, great place but not worth $2500-$4000 a night but people are paying it. Disney realized they can do the same with less, offer premium experiences and higher food prices and if the attendance is down its better for them. Unfortunately for Disney, a lot of the people that are not there are at universal or other vacations (Europe, carribean , etc.) but when you lose these customers, hard to get them back and they realize there is another option...
Quick example of the parties over- Napa Valley Ca, was just there in October for harvest, one of their busiest times and the hotels were not full, nor the wineries. Inventories are not going down and they are just selling juice and grapes for below mkt to get rid of it. What happened? Napa priced themselves out as a bottle of cab is avg $100 or more and they are charging $150-$600 a tasting in some places and all the younger generation do not want to spend that money on wine and would rather drink spirits or go to other wine regions that are cheaper. Napa didnt see the change coming and got way over their skiis, Disney is starting to do the same.