Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[jpeden]

@lentesta has stated that genie+ is not the main problem - DAS is just as much of an issue in causing standby to not move

I also believe he said that the company believes the abuse of DAS is because people are doing everything they can to avoid paying for G+ - therefore the root problem is still G+.

 

[JD80]

I also believe he said that the company believes the abuse of DAS is because people are doing everything they can to avoid paying for G+ - therefore the root problem is still G+.

I've heard a handful of stories from DAS users themselves that they would not have used DAS if G+ didn't cost so much (or anything at all). I have every reason to believe they weren't abusing the system.

 

[monothingie]

I was there 2/8-2/14.

Just got back last night and, well, they already indicated attendance is down at WDW but I thought I'd add a few observations.

It "felt" crowded. We were coming off the tail end of the national cheerleading competitions but to be honest I didn't see as many groups of cheerleaders as I had anticipated - it certainly wasn't overwhelming.

They were all over DHS, MK, and Epcot and only started leaving on 2/12. My flight home was loaded with groups of them.

Genie+, LL, and Virtual Queues are a joke. Seriously. They are hands down without a doubt in my mind the core problem.

Their needless impact on Standby lines is quite visible. Many families I spoke with grudgingly forked over the $$$'s and weren't happy with the results. Tron and Guardians VQ's were often gone within 30 seconds - even when I kept hitting refresh at exactly 7am for Guardians, I got an estimated callback time of 480 minutes or more - often 3 or 4pm, running into the afternoon (1pm) queue.

Did Guardians twice via Virtual Queue and both times we waited in line almost exactly 50 minutes. It seemed for every 50 VQ's they let thru, they let 100 LL's thru. I haven't run the calculations yet to determine if they are selling a proportionate amount of LL's so that the VQ's are almost a consistent 50 minute wait time, but I do know that not having a regular (and unpredictable) standby line makes it easy for them to play the math.

I didn't even bother with G+ or LL. Rather I was flexible with when I wanted to be in the park and was able to take advantage of significantly reduced wait times. (Walked onto ROTR with in the last hour before closing). The only time I went to the MK was for an after-hours party, in which it was sadly the only time you can actually enjoy experiencing attractions at the park. (Make it so miserable, you have to pay extra to have a good experience)

For the last several visits I have found myself spending less time in the parks (except for EPCOT) because of the ridiculous wait times and more time at the resort.

It was amazing to see the parks full of people not actually doing anything. The G+ effect has created this phenomenon where guests are just mulling about not sure of what to do, either because wait times exceed their tolerance to stand in line or because they are all out of other things to do. I especially feel for the families with young ones who planned on doing a whole day at the park. The only way you can do that now without going insane is by paying for G+ and ILL.

Frequent downtime put enormous pressure on other attractions in all parks. If attendance is truly down (and I have no doubt that's the case), wait times are in for a world of hurt when more people are packed into the parks.

Carefully controlled park reservations and G+ sales will ensure that the parks always "feel" crowded even if there are fewer people going. The goal is no longer filling the park, but creating the conditions to extract as much revenue per guest as possible.

Dining - most table serve we went to had more tables empty than occupied and that only seemed to increase the higher up the signature chain we went. I didn't see a single guest in any park gnawing on an $8 Mickey pretzel the entire time I was there.

EPCOT was packed, yet the Festival Kiosks were dead. During peak afternoon there were little to no lines at even the popular Kiosks. There were no lines at all after 5PM. In regards to TS restaurants, I didn't make any ADRS until either day of or 2 days prior. It was amazing to see how availability magically opened up for so many places.

Resorts - lots of empty rooms. Not that I personally checked but derived that from conversations with several CM's onsite.

Deluxe Resorts (non-DVC) were noticeably empty. Values were packed with the cheerleader groups.

It was a disappointing week. Even with the experience we have storm trooping the parks the yield was minimal. Several times we went into MK and just left after an hour or so because Standby times were ridiculous. Oh, and the posted wait times in many cases now seemed to be a bit conservative - I was also running Tour Plans Line WDW app on my phone and it's "Expected Wait Times" were way off. For example, often ROTR would have a posted wait time of 75 minutes and Lines was reporting an expected wait time of 20. We would get in the line and the wait was more like the posted time.

Generally I observed that posted wait times were about 15-25% longer than the actual wait. I don't think there is a greater way to feel miserable than having to wait for a MK or DHS Attraction between 9AM and 3PM.

I feel sorry for the many families we met who were struggling with the logistics and costs of simply being able to do stuff. Their level of frustration was readily apparent.

It's terrible for guest retention. You've got to wonder if they realize that and what their end goal is. Push away AP holders, push away first time guests, push away returning guests. I guess they figure for every one guest that they push away 4 more will take their place.

 

[Jrb1979]

I've heard a handful of stories from DAS users themselves that they would not have used DAS if G+ didn't cost so much (or anything at all). I have every reason to believe they weren't abusing the system.

I've heard the same. A lot of DAS users didn't use it before cause FP+ worked for them.

I'm not so sure there really is a fix for it. There isn't enough capacity to change much.

 

[JD80]

I've heard the same. A lot of DAS users didn't use it before cause FP+ worked for them.

I'm not so sure there really is a fix for it. There isn't enough capacity to change much.

It's not really capacity, because this would still happen with half the people in the parks and G+ being half the price. This is a question of system design and human behavior. There is a price point of G+ where the hassle of applying and using a DAS is more of a hassle than just purchasing G+. That price point may be $1 or $20 but that's not the point.

Whenever you have a system that gives a person a reward and you give that person options to achieve it, then humans will always take the path of least resistance.

1. Path #1: DAS - free to use, requires approval
2. Path #2: G+ - cost money per person to use.
3. Path #3: Standby - no additional cost

The path of least resistance [of getting on the ride] is using DAS if you have access to it. The only resistance is the application process. And if you can get on 2-4 rides a day with it, that may be enough for most people to say the application process is worth $30 for a single person or $100 for a family.

 

[annsene]

I am just wondering if those who are having a difficult time in the parks with G+, price, etc. are sending your feedback directly to the company. Venting here and sharing your stories here are helpful, and I am sure the company has “spies” here, but sending your feedback directly to them may be more effective? Again, just wondering.

I am a long time reader here, but rarely post, hence why I am a “new member”

 

[monothingie]

I am just wondering if those who are having a difficult time in the parks with G+, price, etc. are sending your feedback directly to the company. Venting here and sharing your stories here are helpful, and I am sure the company has “spies” here, but sending your feedback directly to them may be more effective? Again, just wondering.

I am a long time reader here, but rarely post, hence why I am a “new member”

Disney does extensive surveying of guests. However the surveys can be crafted in a way to minimize negative responses and essentially tell the company what it wants to hear.

I would assume that they are well aware of negative guest views towards G+/ILL, prices, and park reservation, etc. but it is not yet at a stage where any levers need to be pulled to make changes.

 

[Andrew25]

I am just wondering if those who are having a difficult time in the parks with G+, price, etc. are sending your feedback directly to the company. Venting here and sharing your stories here are helpful, and I am sure the company has “spies” here, but sending your feedback directly to them may be more effective? Again, just wondering.

I am a long time reader here, but rarely post, hence why I am a “new member”

Disney knows, but no executive has the gut to cut a service that generates revenue.

 

[Jrb1979]

Disney knows, but no executive has the gut to cut a service that generates revenue.

That's partially it. I do think they don't know how to fix it. While they announced advanced booking, they have since not said anything. My guess is they know they can't go back something like FP+ as it didn't work.

 

[Trauma]

That's partially it. I do think they don't know how to fix it. While they announced advanced booking, they have since not said anything. My guess is they know they can't go back something like FP+ as it didn't work.

No they can’t go back to FP+ because on the $$$$ genie makes.

You act like they care at all about guest satisfaction.

This is a Bob Iger run company that only cares about the quarterlies.

 

[Laketravis]

I was there 2/8-2/14.


They were all over DHS, MK, and Epcot and only started leaving on 2/12. My flight home was loaded with groups of them.

I didn't even bother with G+ or LL. Rather I was flexible with when I wanted to be in the park and was able to take advantage of significantly reduced wait times. (Walked onto ROTR with in the last hour before closing). The only time I went to the MK was for an after-hours party, in which it was sadly the only time you can actually enjoy experiencing attractions at the park. (Make it so miserable, you have to pay extra to have a good experience)

For the last several visits I have found myself spending less time in the parks (except for EPCOT) because of the ridiculous wait times and more time at the resort.

It was amazing to see the parks full of people not actually doing anything. The G+ effect has created this phenomenon where guests are just mulling about not sure of what to do, either because wait times exceed their tolerance to stand in line or because they are all out of other things to do. I especially feel for the families with young ones who planned on doing a whole day at the park. The only way you can do that now without going insane is by paying for G+ and ILL.

Carefully controlled park reservations and G+ sales will ensure that the parks always "feel" crowded even if there are fewer people going. The goal is no longer filling the park, but creating the conditions to extract as much revenue per guest as possible.

EPCOT was packed, yet the Festival Kiosks were dead. During peak afternoon there were little to no lines at even the popular Kiosks. There were no lines at all after 5PM. In regards to TS restaurants, I didn't make any ADRS until either day of or 2 days prior. It was amazing to see how availability magically opened up for so many places.

Deluxe Resorts (non-DVC) were noticeably empty. Values were packed with the cheerleader groups.

Generally I observed that posted wait times were about 15-25% longer than the actual wait. I don't think there is a greater way to feel miserable than having to wait for a MK or DHS Attraction between 9AM and 3PM.

It's terrible for guest retention. You've got to wonder if they realize that and what their end goal is. Push away AP holders, push away first time guests, push away returning guests. I guess they figure for every one guest that they push away 4 more will take their place.

Oh, the cheerleaders were definitely there but we arrived 2/11 and left 2/15 so probably only caught the trailing edge. I just didn't feel as "impacted" by them as years and groups past (Pop Warner, BTG's, etc). There were only a couple of times where 20 or more of them would spill into a standby line together and both times they were very polite and offered to let me go in front of them.

Completely agree with everything you said. I refuse to pay for G+ and LL so last week's visit was absolutely the least productive in 20 years. Like you, we only went to MK once over the 5 days we were there but did absolutely nothing before leaving after an hour or so. It was miserable. Would get in line for ROTR while everyone else was at Fantasmic and almost walk on (if it was running) but that was really the only highlight for that park. Epcot was packed with the Art Festival going on but like you said - it didn't really feel like people were "doing" anything. We hit AK once in the early morning and still waited almost an hour and a half for Avatar, and then left because the wait times had already risen to unacceptable levels for everything else.

By the way, I did speak to a small family from Peru who had come from two days at Uni - they said it was empty. They were really frustrated that they were having to pay an additional $150+ a day every day of their 5 day visit at WDW in order to accomplish anything. This was their first and last time at WDW.

Prior to last week we were there the second week of December and the experience was somewhat the same although we accomplished slightly more. We are going to wait until the "historically" low crowd month of September and spend a couple more weeks there to see if it improves. May return again later in November before making the final call about waiting a few years after that.

 

[Andrew25]

Prior to last week we were there the second week of December and the experience was somewhat the same although we accomplished slightly more. We are going to wait until the "historically" low crowd month of September and spend a couple more weeks there to see if it improves. May return again later in November before making the final call about waiting a few years after that.

I have bad news... September is busy, and arguably has become one of the busier periods now. For the past few years it's been just as busy as any other time frame. Not to mention that Not So Scary inflates waits on non-party nights now, so you either take a hit on visiting any empty MK with no fireworks, or visit MK with 1.5-2 days worth of guests.

Universal is somewhat manageable, but USF turns into chaos after 3PM when APs descend for HHN nights and they start shutting down sections of the park.

 

[Laketravis]

I neglected to add that I also noticed a significant decrease in food quality at the TS restaurants even when compared to our visit in December and can't help but wonder if it was a pre-emptive move due to the return of "free" dining. The meats were noticeably fattier (the brisket at Whispering Canyon was almost inedible) and of lower quality, portions smaller, etc.

 

[Laketravis]

I have bad news... September is busy, and arguably has become one of the busier periods now. For the past few years it's been just as busy as any other time frame. Not to mention that Not So Scary inflates waits on non-party nights now, so you either take a hit on visiting any empty MK with no fireworks, or visit MK with 1.5-2 days worth of guests.

Universal is somewhat manageable, but USF turns into chaos after 3PM when APs descend for HHN nights and they start shutting down sections of the park.

Well that sucks

I figured we'd spend a couple of weeks next time with substantially lower expectations so if we were only able to accomplish an attraction or two in the mornings each day and then just "hang out" it wouldn't feel like such a waste. I'm already planning on either Uber or renting a car next time so we can go offsite for dinners because the quality/cost equation at WDW over 14 nights simply isn't there.

We were at USF last late August and it was empty in comparison - we felt like we accomplished so much more.

 

[PREMiERdrum]

It sounds like there is some momentum internally to re-incentivize onsite bookings with additional inclusions.

Without specifics, I wouldn't be surprised if some form of DME and maybe, just maybe, "free" Genie+ with certain tiers of hotel package stays were in play. It's one of the few levers they have available that could take effect prior to EU's opening.

 

[pigglewiggle]

It sounds like there is some momentum internally to re-incentivize onsite bookings with additional inclusions.

Without specifics, I wouldn't be surprised if some form of DME and maybe, just maybe, "free" Genie+ with certain tiers of hotel package stays were in play. It's one of the few levers they have available that could take effect prior to EU's opening.

Interesting. Would this be 2024 or 2025?

Although we wouldn't really be swayed by Magical Express returning. We, personally, find it far easier to just take an Uber last time, but there aren't many of us and no small children.
But free Genie + would be something to consider.

 

[Andrew25]

It sounds like there is some momentum internally to re-incentivize onsite bookings with additional inclusions.

Without specifics, I wouldn't be surprised if some form of DME and maybe, just maybe, "free" Genie+ with certain tiers of hotel package stays were in play. It's one of the few levers they have available that could take effect prior to EU's opening.

Epic will definitely help WDW a bit as it'll be a win for the entire region... except for the part where guests drop a day at a WDW park for Universal. Free Genie+ might convince guests to limit their visit to Universal for just a day.

 

[Laketravis]

Epic will definitely help WDW a bit as it'll be a win for the entire region... except for the part where guests drop a day at a WDW park for Universal. Free Genie+ might convince guests to limit their visit to Universal for just a day.

Unfortunately, G+ has obviously become quite a chunk of coin to give up. Kind of like me hoping for no-toll days on Texas 130.

 

[John park hopper]

There is no way Disney will give up Genie --huge revenue generator and easy to manipulate in their favor

 

[Bastet]

Why is Disney the only park operater considered to be wrong for charging for skip the line?