Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[lentesta]

My guess is that these are contributing factors to table-service dining volumes being down:

• Genie+ and ILL rides are a higher priority. Given the tight return time windows for those, people are reluctant to book a specific dining time that might, weeks later, conflict with their one chance to ride TRON (as an example).
• Cost. It's hard to accept that 2 adults and 2 kids is committed to a minimum spend of $280 as soon as they sit down at Be Our Guest. And it's entirely possible that families have hit their spending limits, so any money spent on G+/ILL is just coming from sit-down dining.

We'll know how much of a factor that first thing is, around the end of August, when everyone's had a chance to make advance LLMPs and ADRs.

As an example of the 'cost' argument, here's the rolling 6-month guest satisfaction numbers for Be Our Guest and from Skipper Canteen, through the end of last year. The red dot on BOG is when they switched to a fixed-price menu. (Blank areas are the pandemic or when we didn't have enough surveys to process.)

So Skipper Canteen's doing well from a survey perspective. Be Our Guest is not.

View attachment 800324

Also shows pretty clearly the two post-Covid happy-to-be-here bumps.

 

[seabreezept813]

Lightning Lane usage is significantly lower since the DAS change, so standby guests are getting more ride capacity.

We’ve seen 30-50% lower, and would not be surprised at higher numbers.

That’s awesome! I wonder what it will look like with the new advance ones

 

[seabreezept813]

My guess is that these are contributing factors to table-service dining volumes being down:

• Genie+ and ILL rides are a higher priority. Given the tight return time windows for those, people are reluctant to book a specific dining time that might, weeks later, conflict with their one chance to ride TRON (as an example).
• Cost. It's hard to accept that 2 adults and 2 kids is committed to a minimum spend of $280 as soon as they sit down at Be Our Guest. And it's entirely possible that families have hit their spending limits, so any money spent on G+/ILL is just coming from sit-down dining.

We'll know how much of a factor that first thing is, around the end of August, when everyone's had a chance to make advance LLMPs and ADRs.

As an example of the 'cost' argument, here's the rolling 6-month guest satisfaction numbers for Be Our Guest and from Skipper Canteen, through the end of last year. The red dot on BOG is when they switched to a fixed-price menu. (Blank areas are the pandemic or when we didn't have enough surveys to process.)

So Skipper Canteen's doing well from a survey perspective. Be Our Guest is not.

View attachment 800324

With restaurants being so quiet? Has quality gone down.. characters, food, service or is it staying mostly consistent. Like in the last year not the last ten lol cuz everything’s gone down in the last ten

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Has quality gone down.. characters, food, service or is it staying mostly consistent.

Very anecdotal but last November I had lunch at the Brown Derby and the food and service was excellent and I’ve always loved the ambience there.

 

[seabreezept813]

Very anecdotal but last November I had lunch at the Brown Derby and the food and service was excellent and I’ve always loved the ambience there.

Appreciate it, I figure all responses are anecdotal.

 

[Angel Ariel]

My guess is that these are contributing factors to table-service dining volumes being down:

• Genie+ and ILL rides are a higher priority. Given the tight return time windows for those, people are reluctant to book a specific dining time that might, weeks later, conflict with their one chance to ride TRON (as an example).
• Cost. It's hard to accept that 2 adults and 2 kids is committed to a minimum spend of $280 as soon as they sit down at Be Our Guest. And it's entirely possible that families have hit their spending limits, so any money spent on G+/ILL is just coming from sit-down dining.

We'll know how much of a factor that first thing is, around the end of August, when everyone's had a chance to make advance LLMPs and ADRs.

As an example of the 'cost' argument, here's the rolling 6-month guest satisfaction numbers for Be Our Guest and from Skipper Canteen, through the end of last year. The red dot on BOG is when they switched to a fixed-price menu. (Blank areas are the pandemic or when we didn't have enough surveys to process.)

So Skipper Canteen's doing well from a survey perspective. Be Our Guest is not.

View attachment 800324

I might shell out for one character breakfast on a trip, for the character convenience, but I'm not dropping the money on a multi course fixed price table service when my child won't eat all of the courses to begin with..add us to the list of customers who will absolutely do skipper canteen and won't return to BOG in its current form.

Sad, as we loved BOG for lunch when QS lunch there was an option. Even the TS dinner à la carte was good. Fixed price just isn't worth it. (We won't do CRT for the same reason).

 

[JD80]

After doing Space 220 with a prefixe menu in '22 I refuse to do it again anywhere.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

After doing Space 220 with a prefixe menu in '22 I refuse to do it again anywhere.

Doing a prefixe menu at a real restaurant is different than doing it at Disney.

The Father's Day Special (a prifixe menu) at Del Frisco's Double Eagle Steakhouse would not disappoint.

And there is even a blatant IP/Sponsor tie-in.

 

[C33Mom]

There have been a lot of comments re: table service being sacrificed as money gets diverted to G+ and ILL (and higher admission prices), but I think another less obvious way price is hurting the TS restaurants is that it puts a premium on time in the parks if you can only afford to go for 3-4 days instead of 7+ days. We don’t mind paying for BOG but it is a long time commitment (especially if you have to wait 20+ minutes to be seated, which has happened to us on occasion) and an extremely heavy meal to eat midday. The time spent waiting and eating isn’t worth a quick silent interaction with the Beast…my kids mostly want to be there so they can paint their own teacup during the dessert course. We’d go back there once a trip for a QS experience or possibly even table service that had you reliably in and out in an hour.

Anyway, back to my general point, if people are taking shorter trips, it’s harder to cram as many rides/parades/shows into a day if you’re breaking for the long prix-fixe meals. We are not trying to make the absolute most of every minute (I need to take breaks from the crowds throughout the day), but it’s still frustrating to realize you’ve been in a restaurant for 90+ min and don’t have the check yet and now are in danger of missing a LL return or fireworks, etc.

FWIW, we are visiting in Aug and are not finding any table service reservations at our favorite places all that easy to get (I booked everything at 60 days and mostly got what we wanted but now I need to try to move things around in anticipation of LLMP rollout and change in touring strategy). Many of the reservations we’d like to shift around (but can’t) are prix-fixe at Epcot. I assume there will be a lot more movement in a couple weeks as people start to select their LLs in advance.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Their priority went from making magic to making money. And, it shows.

That was always the priority. Real world.

I disagree. They made magic understanding that would make money. Now they make money without regards to making magic.

Honestly…the failure is on the customers…not the corporate monolith

 

[LSLS]

If we are going to use the heat as any sort of an excuse, we need to also acknowledge what they have done to the parks is a large contributing factor to what is going on. There are less rides (so less indoor ques), less shaded areas, and things are so much more expensive, it's tough to take a meal break out of the heat as well. I honestly about fell over when I saw Tusker House was over $60 (and apparently a lot of others did as well since there was nobody in the waiting area). Heck, I feel like there used to be splash pads and stuff around some of the parks as well (but could just be remembering wrong). At any rate, if you really want to buy the heat as a big issue, then we need to also say Disney has made the heat feel worse as well by making the sun and heat much more open.

 

[bwr827]

If we are going to use the heat as any sort of an excuse, we need to also acknowledge what they have done to the parks is a large contributing factor to what is going on. There are less rides (so less indoor ques), less shaded areas, and things are so much more expensive, it's tough to take a meal break out of the heat as well. I honestly about fell over when I saw Tusker House was over $60 (and apparently a lot of others did as well since there was nobody in the waiting area). Heck, I feel like there used to be splash pads and stuff around some of the parks as well (but could just be remembering wrong). At any rate, if you really want to buy the heat as a big issue, then we need to also say Disney has made the heat feel worse as well by making the sun and heat much more open.

No one suggesting heat as a factor is claiming it’s the only reason.

There are fewer rides than when? I know the parks need more, but have they not added rides? Dwarfs, Tron, Ratatouille, Rise, Slinky, Flight, etc.?

 

[lentesta]

After doing Space 220 with a prefixe menu in '22 I refuse to do it again anywhere.

This is exactly what I mean. Thank you.

I get why certain places need fixed-price menus. We've all seen a party of 4 order one pizza and four waters while camping out for three hours to see fireworks. The restaurant has to make money. And I'm not sure there's a way, other than a time limit, to prevent that.

But it's also understandable that guests just don't accept the current value proposition.

For BOG specifically, my guess is the next thing Disney does is throw characters at it.

 

[lentesta]

No one suggesting heat as a factor is claiming it’s the only reason.

There are fewer rides than when? I know the parks need more, but have they not added rides? Dwarfs, Tron, Ratatouille, Rise, Slinky, Flight, etc.?

I know it's an open question as to whether DHS has more ride capacity now than (as a guess) 20 years ago. And that doesn't account for attendance increases over that time.

At its peak in 2019, DHS attendance was just shy of 11.5MM guests.
DHS's attendance in 2004 was 8.2MM

So an increase of 9K guests per day, on average.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

No one suggesting heat as a factor is claiming it’s the only reason.

There are fewer rides than when? I know the parks need more, but have they not added rides? Dwarfs, Tron, Ratatouille, Rise, Slinky, Flight, etc.?

There are fewer rides/diversions to spread around than there was 20 years ago based on the normal rise in travel.

And they have removed things lowering the “gains” as well.

It’s up 25% since then. Not because they’ve built the quality for it…just because of straight consumerism. More spending…more travel…more.

The reality is wdw is one of the only places sliding backwards in travel…anywhere.

And this has been said 1000 times: that is completely contrary to the entire history of Disney parks. All of it.

Consider the concept they have no idea what they’re doing.

 

[JD80]

Doing a prefixe menu at a real restaurant is different than doing it at Disney.

The Father's Day Special (a prifixe menu) at Del Frisco's Double Eagle Steakhouse would not disappoint.

And there is even a blatant IP/Sponsor tie-in.

I don't hate a prefixe menu as a concept. I've done it plenty of times before but for special occasions like Father's Day in your example. It's a vibe thing for me because for some reason I don't mind doing it at buffets or character meals.

I just don't like going to a sit down restaurant and not being able to build the meal I want from a menu when I just want to have a every day meal with the family.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

This is exactly what I mean. Thank you.

I get why certain places need fixed-price menus. We've all seen a party of 4 order one pizza and four waters while camping out for three hours to see fireworks. The restaurant has to make money. And I'm not sure there's a way, other than a time limit, to prevent that.

But it's also understandable that guests just don't accept the current value proposition.

For BOG specifically, my guess is the next thing Disney does is throw characters at it.

And gets even worse when your kids are "Disney Adults" ... My youngest turns 10 this coming week meaning I will have 3 Disney Adults - basically takes all Prefixe/buffets off the table. Also dessert parties when I have to pay for them as adults but they can't even get the benefit of the included alcohol.

Stinks for places like California Grill which we used to love - would get flat breads and sushi and just share stuff. Would go almost every trip - haven't been back since switched to a Prefixe as just can't pay the Adult price for them

 

[JD80]

There have been a lot of comments re: table service being sacrificed as money gets diverted to G+ and ILL (and higher admission prices), but I think another less obvious way price is hurting the TS restaurants is that it puts a premium on time in the parks if you can only afford to go for 3-4 days instead of 7+ days. We don’t mind paying for BOG but it is a long time commitment (especially if you have to wait 20+ minutes to be seated, which has happened to us on occasion) and an extremely heavy meal to eat midday. The time spent waiting and eating isn’t worth a quick silent interaction with the Beast…my kids mostly want to be there so they can paint their own teacup during the dessert course. We’d go back there once a trip for a QS experience or possibly even table service that had you reliably in and out in an hour.

Anyway, back to my general point, if people are taking shorter trips, it’s harder to cram as many rides/parades/shows into a day if you’re breaking for the long prix-fixe meals. We are not trying to make the absolute most of every minute (I need to take breaks from the crowds throughout the day), but it’s still frustrating to realize you’ve been in a restaurant for 90+ min and don’t have the check yet and now are in danger of missing a LL return or fireworks, etc.

FWIW, we are visiting in Aug and are not finding any table service reservations at our favorite places all that easy to get (I booked everything at 60 days and mostly got what we wanted but now I need to try to move things around in anticipation of LLMP rollout and change in touring strategy). Many of the reservations we’d like to shift around (but can’t) are prix-fixe at Epcot. I assume there will be a lot more movement in a couple weeks as people start to select their LLs in advance.

That's always been a puzzle for most visitors. That wouldn't explain lack of restaurant guests now vs. then.

 

[JD80]

This is exactly what I mean. Thank you.

I get why certain places need fixed-price menus. We've all seen a party of 4 order one pizza and four waters while camping out for three hours to see fireworks. The restaurant has to make money. And I'm not sure there's a way, other than a time limit, to prevent that.

But it's also understandable that guests just don't accept the current value proposition.

For BOG specifically, my guess is the next thing Disney does is throw characters at it.

Unfortunate side effect of my job is that I'm always thinking about ROI. Bleeds over into Disney Vacations.

I loved the vibes of Space 220. The show getting in and out of the restaurant was great, the food was decent too. I was there with my wife at the time so I was just a party of two. Will I bring a 12 yo, 10 yo and a 7 yo next year and drop $300 on the experience? No way.

This whole Disney Adult at 10 years old needs to go. They need a category between Kids Menu and being able to buy a beer.

 

[LSLS]

No one suggesting heat as a factor is claiming it’s the only reason.

There are fewer rides than when? I know the parks need more, but have they not added rides? Dwarfs, Tron, Ratatouille, Rise, Slinky, Flight, etc.?

Sure, but my point is if we are going to use it as a part of the reasoning, then we need to acknowledge that Disney hasn't done a great job mitigating the heat either.

They have added rides, but have also equally taken out rides. Rat was an addition, but how much other stuff has gone at Epcot in the last 20 years? Sure, Slinky was added, but if I remember the arguments, it was actually a net negative in attractions compared to what was there 10 years before. And of course, Toy Story Land is kind of the epitome of making things as hot as humanly possible. All outdoors with no seats or even shade. That also doesn't account for the VQ they are loving now, which again, keeps you from getting inside the que and out of the sun. We cut our park days in half this trip because it was just miserable (again, it's impossible to even really get out of the heat anymore). Next year when we are down, I would say it's a better than 50% chance we legit spend 0 days at the parks (nor do we stay at a Disney hotel)