Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[monothingie]

Since COVID D+ has taken over Disney and that's what their focus is on.

There is another.....

It starts with H.

Why loose money on one streaming service when you can loose money on two for an extra $9B to $23B?

 

[Jrb1979]

There is another.....

It starts with H.

Why loose money on one streaming service when you can loose money on two for an extra $9B to $23B?

This all looks good on them in the end. They did all of this to themselves. They had a good thing going prior to COVID then decided to change course.

 

[The Mom]

So what’s the link?

I only see one. It’s not politics at all. The rest of the country, Canada and Western Europe - Sorry Florida - don’t care about Tallahassee or fights with a corporate monolith…

They come for weather, rides, salt and sugar…not much more than that.

I've been on beach vacations for years, both in New England and in FL. In New England there was always the chance that the weather would not allow you to go to the beach, and a week of rainy or cooler days was not unheard of. Even when going to the beach a sweatshirt was needed after coming out of the water unless you went during a 95+ heat wave.

Yes, it regularly storms every afternoon in FL, but there are usually a few hours in the morning when you can go to the beach - and even go in and out of the water - without freezing. Unless a hurricane hits, of course.

But many families would rather travel and rent a house/condo on an uncrowded beach (there are still many if you know where to look) and have most meals at home.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Don't look at Royal Caribbean then...

My GF did an Alaska cruise on RC and said DCL is worth the extra money, I’m a Disney junkie so I wasn’t about to argue with her.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I've been on beach vacations for years, both in New England and in FL. In New England there was always the chance that the weather would not allow you to go to the beach, and a week of rainy days was not unheard of. Even when going to the beach a sweatshirt was needed after coming out of the water unless you went during a 95+ heat wave.

Yes, it regularly storms every afternoon in FL, but there are usually a few hours in the morning when you can go to the beach - and even go in and out of the water - without freezing. Unless a hurricane hits, of course.

But many families would rather travel and rent a house/condo on an uncrowded beach (there are still many if you know where to look) and have most meals at home.

I’m not saying wdw is for everyone…far from it. Nor are amusement parks

I’m just submitting that there is no way under the current environment that wdw is significantly down in attendance…and it’s hard to argue otherwise…unless it’s price.

The only thing that can move that mountain.

 

[The Mom]

I’m not saying wdw is for everyone…far from it. Nor are amusement parks

I’m just submitting that there is no way under the current environment that wdw is significantly down in attendance…and it’s hard to argue otherwise…unless it’s price.

The only thing that can move that mountain.

I was speculating about why there are just as many people flying into MCO, but not going to the parks (unless Universal has had a spike in guests) might be because people are still coming for the beaches - where they are pretty much guaranteed to have beach weather except for a rare day when it rains all day.

I personally like the afternoon showers when I get out of the sun and sit on the balcony with an adult beverage. Or take a little lie down.

But again, I'm just speculating about why tourism is still up - but not at WDW.

Edited to add.

When my children were small (especially my daughter) we were at WDW almost monthly, for long weekends. They lost interest, and when things started becoming more complicated and less "fun" so did I.

 

[BlakeW39]

Exactly!! Since we’ll never get access to their actual data, they can and WILL spin it to no one’s advantage but their own.

They have been doing it in the movies for years...the consumer is too stupid to know what is good for them, so they will tell us what we want. If you dont like their terrible interpretation of the market, then they will find an easy scapegoat to pawn off the problems.


I dont want to watch 15 crappy D+ shows to understand the next super hero movie or Star Wars Film. I dont want to spend the same amount on a week vacation as I would on a three month summer rental on a lake. I dont want to spend 300-400 a night on a Moderate hotel room that doesnt even get me evening hours at the parks. I dont want to go on vacation and be responsible for every single thing from transfers, to luggage, to reservations, to Geenie+ and beyond...especially when all those things were included four years ago at a cheaper price.

I love Disney, but this isnt Disney anymore, its a meat grinder of stress from bills, stress from planning and stress from broken promises. The name Disney used to be "fun", now its just another full time job.

I've said this before, but despite their access to large amounts of data, TWDC executives aren't infalliable and can be subject to bias or faulty analytical interpretation. In other words, they can be just wrong.... Bob's not omniscient.

Here's my issue. They screw up in their studios, and they suffer consequences. They make bad movies and people stop going to see them. Star Wars declined in profits with every new film they released. wow. But the parks, which they have been screwing up for far longer, just seem impenetrable. People just keep going despite the decline in quality of the product you get year over year growth non stop. And I don't attribute that to proper management. I attribute that to the parks being such a strong institution that they can screw them up badly and they'll STILL be successful. What's happening now... isn't the result of decades of stupid decision making. It's the result of recent blunders like Genie+ and pricing and so on, and the company going too far EVEN for them. But I don't think this is evidence of Disney finally being held accountable for years and years of decisions that are unpopular on this board.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

My GF did an Alaska cruise on RC and said DCL is worth the extra money, I’m a Disney junkie so I wasn’t about to argue with her.

We've done both Disney and RCL and I do agree you an see areas where the extra cost for DCL goes and obviously you get Disney characters, etc.

We did find there were other areas that RCL did better though - most noticable the variety of activities, food, and entertainment - and given the cost difference, and that my kids are getting older, we have moved to RCL

 

[Lilofan]

I was speculating about why there are just as many people flying into MCO, but not going to the parks (unless Universal has had a spike in guests) might be because people are still coming for the beaches - where they are pretty much guaranteed to have beach weather except for a rare day when it rains all day.

I personally like the afternoon showers when I get out of the sun and sit on the balcony with an adult beverage. Or take a little lie down.

But again, I'm just speculating about why tourism is still up - but not at WDW.

Edited to add.

When my children were small (especially my daughter) we were at WDW almost monthly, for long weekends. They lost interest, and when things started becoming more complicated and less "fun" so did I.

Met some fellow guests from Brazil who vacationed in Orlando pre Covid on International Drive. I learned the Orlando discount outlet malls are prime shopping targets for Brazilians. Not just spending money at WDW but thousands of dollars spent on merchandise, clothing, shoes , shipped back to Brazil and then resell to many willing buyers.

 

[KeithVH]

I've been on beach vacations for years, both in New England and in FL. In New England there was always the chance that the weather would not allow you to go to the beach, and a week of rainy or cooler days was not unheard of. Even when going to the beach a sweatshirt was needed after coming out of the water unless you went during a 95+ heat wave.

Yes, it regularly storms every afternoon in FL, but there are usually a few hours in the morning when you can go to the beach - and even go in and out of the water - without freezing. Unless a hurricane hits, of course.

But many families would rather travel and rent a house/condo on an uncrowded beach (there are still many if you know where to look) and have most meals at home.

You know, for the money we spent 2 weeks ago at the CR, I think the above may have been a better relaxing vacation choice. The heat was oppresive (which would have been fine with the ocean right there) and the mass of humanity in the parks right before Memorial Day would NOT have been missed. I think I'm still in shock at the amount of people we saw in the parks this last visit, especially when you compare it to something like December in the early 2000s.

 

[Comped]

Met some fellow guests from Brazil who vacationed in Orlando pre Covid on International Drive. I learned the Orlando discount outlet malls are prime shopping targets for Brazilians. Not just spending money at WDW but thousands of dollars spent on merchandise, clothing, shoes , shipped back to Brazil and then resell to many willing buyers.

Not just outlet malls - it's how Florida Mall and a few others have managed to avoid being dead malls and are absolutely bloody thriving as retail institutions. Because of the tourists literally being bussed over there by the vanload...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I was speculating about why there are just as many people flying into MCO, but not going to the parks (unless Universal has had a spike in guests) might be because people are still coming for the beaches - where they are pretty much guaranteed to have beach weather except for a rare day when it rains all day.

I personally like the afternoon showers when I get out of the sun and sit on the balcony with an adult beverage. Or take a little lie down.

But again, I'm just speculating about why tourism is still up - but not at WDW.

Edited to add.

When my children were small (especially my daughter) we were at WDW almost monthly, for long weekends. They lost interest, and when things started becoming more complicated and less "fun" so did I.

In my experience…people go to beaches more local to them…at least in the US summer.

One area loves Florida beaches a bit more than they deserve:

But you might be right.

Still…there seems to be “rub” that wdw maybe overpriced…maybe too hard to enjoy…maybe be getting caught at its own game by Comcast

Let’s find out. They hold the keys in their hands.

 

[Lilofan]

Not just outlet malls - it's how Florida Mall and a few others have managed to avoid being dead malls and are absolutely bloody thriving as retail institutions. Because of the tourists literally being bussed over there by the vanload...

Its amazing that Sears and JCPennys are thriving at the FL Mall in Orlando probably thanks to foreign tourists supporting FL economy .

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Met some fellow guests from Brazil who vacationed in Orlando pre Covid on International Drive. I learned the Orlando discount outlet malls are prime shopping targets for Brazilians. Not just spending money at WDW but thousands of dollars spent on merchandise, clothing, shoes , shipped back to Brazil and then resell to many willing buyers.

You weren’t aware of why they found Orlando favorable?

…I think you missed Something along way back…

However Brazilians are NOT a significant portion of the travelers. That is the oldest red herring in the book.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Its amazing that Sears and JCPennys are thriving at the FL Mall in Orlando probably thanks to foreign tourists supporting FL economy .

You do understand that Sears is all but bankrupt and will be gone in a few years no matter what…as will J.C. Penney unless things go REALLY bad on Main Street?

Like a 40 year trend?

 

[Nubs70]

See now…I think they have abandoned the time honored obsession with public perception.

I think the management philosophy decided that they would determine their own perception…believing that they can control both sides of the consumer paradigm…and we are seeing the first real waves of mistakes based on that miscalculation.

Try putting genie back in the bottle…as it were…

WDW has abandoned the time honored obsession with public perception and fully embraced the addiction of Business Process Optimization.

In BPO, what does is matter financially is attendance is at record rates?

As long as attendance is high:

• Do not add attractions
• Restrict maintenance
• Remove low margin offerings
• Remove low value added activities
• Increase use of 3rd party vendors - 100% margin activity
• Minimize staffing - lower labor input
• Raise prices at any opportunity
• Create upsell opportunities and market as a convenience / mass customization
• Restrict throughput of attractions to create sales of upsell opportunities

 

[bmr1591]

The average lead time on bookings - except dvc who will FLOOD the place if attendance continues to collapse - is 15-18 months for domestic travel at wdw parks.

It’s expensive to still a huge chunk of their market.

These people “stopped coming” during the end of the second Covid year

Unless they lower the point requirement for rooms during 10 of the 12 months, I don't see DVC flooding anything. From what I can tell, most DVC members go in January or September, then sell their points to other people to try and make a little profit.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I think this is why DCL is doing so well right now, we’re doing a week long Norway fjords cruise on DCL that is similarly priced to what a week at WDW would have cost. We love WDW but for the cost there’s some amazing alternatives.

Dcl is 2x the retail price.

The fact it balances out as a the same as wdw is REALLY and indictment of wdw management ideas.

Dcl - full credit to the execs - has kept the price high because they are woefully small compared to the competition. Simple limit of the S&D curve. It’s worked.

 

[Lilofan]

You do understand that Sears is all but bankrupt and will be gone in a few years no matter what…as will J.C. Penney unless things go REALLY bad on Main Street?

Like a 40 year trend?

Yes there is no more in my area but I've been to the locations in Orlando by tourist central FL Mall. Whole different atmosphere far from dead.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Unless they lower the point requirement for rooms during 10 of the 12 months, I don't see DVC flooding anything. From what I can tell, most DVC members go in January or September, then sell their points to other people to try and make a little profit.

I’ll speak for the dvc here (I’ve got a nametag somewhere round here…)

We complain a lot…we’re jaded for being discarded during Covid…we hate genie and usually dining plan…

…but what we really want is low crowds. Like the good old days/months. That’s enough.

Bookings look like they’re trending up to me…and if world gets around it’s crowds like years ago? Rooms will be filled. Bank on it