Is attendance really down at WDW this or…

[TheMaxRebo]

See, and that's the question I keep coming back to. Are the wait times indicative of how busy the place is, or are they up for other reasons? 30 minutes seems very long for Barnstormer, but legit the only hotel sold out right now is All Stars Movie, and there are lots of dining reservations. Has the travel pattern of guests significantly changed, or is it not as busy as the wait times are indicating? I know they mentioned last quarter having less guests, it will be interesting to see what the next earnings report shows.

Personally I think it is a few things:
- posted wait times can be off and potentially more inflated now than in the past
- I think total guests are down but not *that* much on most days (but definitely down to the peak of 2018/2019)
- there is less "other stuff" to do - less streetmosphere, not all shows are back, etc -pushing more people to attractions
- hotels and dining are definitely more impacted than the parks, thus all the resort discounts and the coming return of the dining plan (plus less people at TS restaurants is another thing pushing people to wait in line)

So total attendance is down from peak of 2018/19 but not "empty" and increased revenue sources (higher prices and G+, etc) more than making up for that

The hotels and dining bookings are a bigger issue for Disney and this the discounts, dining plan coming back, some return of some perks (though I think they need more - let's see what the coming changes to G+ being), etc

 

[LSLS]

Personally I think it is a few things:
- posted wait times can be off and potentially more inflated now than in the past
- I think total guests are down but not *that* much on most days (but definitely down to the peak of 2018/2019)
- there is less "other stuff" to do - less streetmosphere, not all shows are back, etc -pushing more people to attractions
- hotels and dining are definitely more impacted than the parks, thus all the resort discounts and the coming return of the dining plan (plus less people at TS restaurants is another thing pushing people to wait in line)

So total attendance is down from peak of 2018/19 but not "empty" and increased revenue sources (higher prices and G+, etc) more than making up for that

The hotels and dining bookings are a bigger issue for Disney and this the discounts, dining plan coming back, some return of some perks (though I think they need more - let's see what the coming changes to G+ being), etc

I'd add in if Disney cuts staff at the same rates guests decline, there's a possibility that wait times are up because trains are leaving every 1.5 minutes as opposed to every minute. Apparently UBS evidence lab says attendance was down 25% for Q3, which is HUGE, but I'm not sure how accurate that is. Q4 could be a big loss based on the 4th of July and potentially Labor Day being large drops. Honestly I don't know. I wish Disney had to report it, but we may have to wait for the AECOM report.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I'd add in if Disney cuts staff at the same rates guests decline, there's a possibility that wait times are up because trains are leaving every 1.5 minutes as opposed to every minute. Apparently UBS evidence lab says attendance was down 25% for Q3, which is HUGE, but I'm not sure how accurate that is. Q4 could be a big loss based on the 4th of July and potentially Labor Day being large drops. Honestly I don't know. I wish Disney had to report it, but we may have to wait for the AECOM report.

could be for sure - also maintenance and just downtime for a lot big rides, especially at DHS. Have Rise and/or ToT go down for an hour and all those people go into other lines and then they have to catch up once the ride is back up

Not to say rides didn't go down in the past, but feels like more often and to more keystone attractions that give a bigger trickle down effect

 

[erasure fan1]

could be for sure - also maintenance and just downtime for a lot big rides, especially at DHS. Have Rise and/or ToT go down for an hour and all those people go into other lines and then they have to catch up once the ride is back up

That's exactly the issue we had at the studios this summer. And with Disneys woeful handling of the parks, it makes it all the worse. There's so little to do at the studios even with those rides being up, that when two major rides go down, it's a cluster. It's a major reason I harp on capacity so much.

 

[wannabeBelle]

Apparently attendance isnt a question on other vacation destinations:

Royal Caribbean Group posts $1 billion profit as company sees skyrocketing demand​

This was from the Royal Caribbean Blog but I have seen similar stories on several other outlets. Marie

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Apparently attendance isnt a question on other vacation destinations:

Royal Caribbean Group posts $1 billion profit as company sees skyrocketing demand​

This was from the Royal Caribbean Blog but I have seen similar stories on several other outlets. Marie

Although it is interesting, being active on some Royal Caribbean message forums, that there are starting to be the same complaints about Royal and Disney World - rising prices, more add ons/upcharge (latest is the adults only area of their private island will be an upcharge) and getting less for your money (reduced menus and complaints about quality of the food, etc) and seeing a lot of people talking about exploring other cruise lines as they don't feel Royal is worth it anymore

 

[Lilofan]

Apparently attendance isnt a question on other vacation destinations:

Royal Caribbean Group posts $1 billion profit as company sees skyrocketing demand​

This was from the Royal Caribbean Blog but I have seen similar stories on several other outlets. Marie

When it works out to $200-300 per day on a cruise which includes entertainment , all u can eat, cabin, etc it is more economical that other vacation options.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

That's exactly the issue we had at the studios this summer. And with Disneys woeful handling of the parks, it makes it all the worse. There's so little to do at the studios even with those rides being up, that when two major rides go down, it's a cluster. It's a major reason I harp on capacity so much.

yeah - and there are not enough like C/D level attractions there (has a number of great ones, but demand is high and they often have tech issues). Then still have the Little Mermaid theater closed, don't have the Citizens of Hollywood, etc - just less "other stuff" to do there

They really need to totally revamp the Animation Couryard/Launch Bay area, maybe connect it over to where RnRC is and increase the amount of things to do, especially low pressure things

 

[TheMaxRebo]

When it works out to $200-300 per day on a cruise which includes entertainment , all u can eat, cabin, etc it is more economical that other vacation options.

yeah, cruising in general is seeing huge demand for that reason - though that increased demand is leading to increased pricing so, at least for the latest and greatest ships, things are getting to be a lot more than 200-300 day - but still can do cruising for a lot less than a WDW trip (especially if willing to be on an older ship)

 

[Lilofan]

Although it is interesting, being active on some Royal Caribbean message forums, that there are starting to be the same complaints about Royal and Disney World - rising prices, more add ons/upcharge (latest is the adults only area of their private island will be an upcharge) and getting less for your money (reduced menus and complaints about quality of the food, etc) and seeing a lot of people talking about exploring other cruise lines as they don't feel Royal is worth it anymore

Castaway is a place I liked to visit especially learning about its infamous past usage and why the runway was built before Disney took over the island.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Castaway is a place I liked to visit especially learning about its infamous past usage and why the runway was built before Disney took over the island.

We've done one Disney cruise and it went to Castaway and i have to say, I am not a beach person at all but it is just about the perfect setting and exactly what you think of for like "tropical paradise". I also ran the 5k they do there and it goes on/by the air strip so was neat to see that

We've also done Royal Caribbean and went to Coco Cay (one of their private islands) and have to say we preferred it - just a lot more variety and more things to do and still gave that "tropical paradise" vibe. (though it has more upcharge things - but we didn't do any of them and didn't feel like we needed to)

Can't really go wrong with either island that is for sure

 

[wannabeBelle]

Although it is interesting, being active on some Royal Caribbean message forums, that there are starting to be the same complaints about Royal and Disney World - rising prices, more add ons/upcharge (latest is the adults only area of their private island will be an upcharge) and getting less for your money (reduced menus and complaints about quality of the food, etc) and seeing a lot of people talking about exploring other cruise lines as they don't feel Royal is worth it anymore

Agreed, I have seen the same. The question is do you think that there will be a faster course correction? I know one situation happened on a Celebrity ship, The Equinox, I believe, they started offering fresh baked cookies with an upcharge of $2.00 per cookie, plus a 20% gratuity. People were really mad, it was actually called Cookiegate (hilarious) and it was addressed by Celebrity almost immediately. They had done it as a test and despite everyone on board loving it ( their statement on the issue) and the free cookies still being offered at other locations onboard, they have pulled it. Also Royal sent out a questionnaire asking if people would pay for pizza onboard at Sorrento's, the currently included pizza venue on the Royal Ships. The response they got was overwhelmingly negative and some were downright angry. I have a feeling they wont be charging for pizza anytime soon. Im not saying they are perfect, but they are listening. Marie

 

[Lilofan]

We've done one Disney cruise and it went to Castaway and i have to say, I am not a beach person at all but it is just about the perfect setting and exactly what you think of for like "tropical paradise". I also ran the 5k they do there and it goes on/by the air strip so was neat to see that

We've also done Royal Caribbean and went to Coco Cay (one of their private islands) and have to say we preferred it - just a lot more variety and more things to do and still gave that "tropical paradise" vibe. (though it has more upcharge things - but we didn't do any of them and didn't feel like we needed to)

Can't really go wrong with either island that is for sure

One thing I liked about the stories the cast members tell. When you ride on the tram at Castaway on the runway to get to the adult beach, the small trailers off to the side covered in landscaping is where the cast members that work there live on the island.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Agreed, I have seen the same. The question is do you think that there will be a faster course correction? I know one situation happened on a Celebrity ship, The Equinox, I believe, they started offering fresh baked cookies with an upcharge of $2.00 per cookie, plus a 20% gratuity. People were really mad, it was actually called Cookiegate (hilarious) and it was addressed by Celebrity almost immediately. They had done it as a test and despite everyone on board loving it ( their statement on the issue) and the free cookies still being offered at other locations onboard, they have pulled it. Also Royal sent out a questionnaire asking if people would pay for pizza onboard at Sorrento's, the currently included pizza venue on the Royal Ships. The response they got was overwhelmingly negative and some were downright angry. I have a feeling they wont be charging for pizza anytime soon. Im not saying they are perfect, but they are listening. Marie

definitely remember the pizza situation/survey lol

It will be interesting to see how well the 2025/26 sailings sell, particularly on Icon of Seas as they jumped so much

we are sailing on it in a new family cabin this coming February and I check for the same sailing but for 2025 and it is up more than 40% - that is a lot! And now is basically same cost as what I could do the Disney Treasure for

So - is the ship so well received that people are willing to pay those prices? or will demand start to wane they have to bring those prices down some

Very interesting times

 

[wannabeBelle]

yeah, cruising in general is seeing huge demand for that reason - though that increased demand is leading to increased pricing so, at least for the latest and greatest ships, things are getting to be a lot more than 200-300 day - but still can do cruising for a lot less than a WDW trip (especially if willing to be on an older ship)

Kingdom Konsultant did a group sailing on the Wonder of the Seas in June. My roommate and I sailed on a 7 night Western Caribbean sailing in a Veranda Stateroom for about $3800.00 for the two of us, not per person. That works out to roughly $271.43 per person per day, not including any excursions. Not bad for the entertainment ( The comedy shows were hilarious and the musical entertainment was great) The food was great and service in the Main Dining room was exceptional. The menus for the most part were good except for the Italian themed night. I spoke to my server and her site manager about that as there wasnt a lot that I wanted to order that night, as opposed to the other nights where I had a few things I could select from and be happy with. The Italian night was just so-so. Im sure that they made note of the feedback and perhaps some changes will come if enough people make a similar complaint. Marie

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Kingdom Konsultant did a group sailing on the Wonder of the Seas in June. My roommate and I sailed on a 7 day Western Caribbean sailing in a Veranda Stateroom for about $3800.00 for the two of us, not per person. That works out to roughly $271.43 per person per day, not including any excursions. Not bad for the entertainment ( The comedy shows were hilarious and the musical entertainment was great) The food was great and service in the Main Dining room was exceptional. The menus for the most part were good except for the Italian themed night. I spoke to my server and her site manager about that as there wasnt a lot that I wanted to order that night, as opposed to the other nights where I had a few things I could select from and be happy with. The Italian night was just so-so. Im sure that they made note of the feedback and perhaps some changes will come if enough people make a similar complaint. Marie

yeah, we did 7 nights on Symphony for our family of 5 in an extended ocean view - that worked out to about $160/night/person (albeit for 5). We are doing Icon this February in a Family Infinity Balcony room with bunk beds, etc. and that is more like $250/night/person - still not bad for all you get with the food, entertainment, pools, water park, etc

For comparison, we just did 6 nights at Disney World in a moderate and for room and tickets it was like $150/night/person, but still have to add food into that

 

[wannabeBelle]

yeah, we did 7 nights on Symphony for our family of 5 in an extended ocean view - that worked out to about $160/night/person (albeit for 5). We are doing Icon this February in a Family Infinity Balcony room with bunk beds, etc. and that is more like $250/night/person - still not bad for all you get with the food, entertainment, pools, water park, etc

I have a sailing on the Utopia in the winter of 2025 for two people in an Ocean View Verandah room for 4 nights ( Utopia is only doing 3 and 4 night sailings) going to Nassau, Bahamas as well as Perfect Day at Cococay. The total with my Diamond discount is just under $2000.00 total for both people. averaging out to $250.00 per person per night. Marie

 

[wannabeBelle]

For comparison, we just did 6 nights at Disney World in a moderate and for room and tickets it was like $150/night/person, but still have to add food into that

Can you guesstimate what you spent on food to do a reasonable comparison? Also what kind of dining, all quick service, some sit downs, etc.? Marie

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Can you guesstimate what you spent on food to do a reasonable comparison? Also what kind of dining, all quick service, some sit downs, etc.? Marie

Not sure about total spent but we only did 2 Table Service restaurants as a family, plus my wife and I did a "lunch date" at Tiffins, rest was quick service or snacks / food booths ... We also used reward points to pay a good chunk of it

Should add we did have some ILL/Genie+ to that would be extras. Maybe about $1,500 all in on top of that so probably close to $200/day/person all in

 

[HauntedPirate]

Back in 2019, it would have been $285/person/day for my family of 6 to do a week at WDW (we did the math while doing a 7-night DCL cruise, the last one of those we did with the entire family). That was including airfare (because you're flying in regardless of if you are cruising or doing a resort stay) but also staying at a DVC resort, one meal per day in the room, and no table service meals. Even stripping out airfare at the time we were at $238/person/day. Not sure how others come in that cheap 4 years later and include the hotel cost and table service meals, unless your use of rewards credits means you aren't including those costs. That alters the math and you aren't giving a true cost for what you did if that's the case.