Indiana Jones Adventure refurbishment

[mickEblu]

I think Lincoln does just fine, for a few reasons aside from the historical stuff.

You couldn't put a super high demand attraction there- it would cause a crowd flow nightmare due to it's proximity to the main gate and parade route.

The show appeals to an older demographic- it's good to have something for the grandparents.

It only requires one CM to run the show, so theoretically the labor costs of running the attraction, and only having to maintain one animatronic means it isn't necessarily a huge financial burden to operate.

Well said. In addition, it’s a real slippery slope. Is the ROA and TSI “working” by El Supers standards? I mean think of all the rides, stores and restaurants they could fit there. Hardly anybody rides those boats or goes to TSI.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Certainly there comes a point where paying the money to maintain and operate the attraction is no longer validated by the number of guests visiting it. Replacing it outright is hard, because of the lack of space, but space won't prevent them from tweaking the show every few years to try to encourage more guest visits. Lincoln is probably the one show that has had more updates (and also "permanent" closures) in park history.

Keep the updates coming then.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

Certainly there comes a point where paying the money to maintain and operate the attraction is no longer validated by the number of guests visiting it. Replacing it outright is hard, because of the lack of space, but space won't prevent them from tweaking the show every few years to try to encourage more guest visits. Lincoln is probably the one show that has had more updates (and also "permanent" closures) in park history.

I do think Lincoln serves a purpose.

If there ever comes a point at which Lincoln becomes too “vintage” for modern Disney my suggestion has been to move him/it to a museum if only because of the historical importance of the attraction beyond Disneyland as a World’s Fair attraction and technological marvel at the time.

But I think tinkering with the show around the edges every so often for contemporary audiences seems like the appropriate fix to keep a reasonable number guests coming through the doors, then that works too.

 

[PiratesMansion]

Baxter was involved with the current iteration of the show, so this is another Baxter project potentially getting altered. Every year his legacy in the park is lessened.

Why does WDI insist on changing things that work, when there's the Star Wars Launch Bay, Galaxy's Edge, Avenger's Campus, etc. that all need work?
Very few changes in the last 5-10 years can be unanimously praised as positives. It'd be nice if they'd let the park breathe for a bit and just fix up what's there currently.

I really think it is what was said by others above; people just can't resist wanting to put their fingerprints on the iconic classics. The same thing happened to Marc Davis.

But 100% in agreement that there's plenty of things that don't work that just sit ignored while they thoughtlessly tinker with the classics.

I think the mid-level iconic attractions have fared best overall, maybe because there's a certain sacredness of the enterprise recognized, but without the desire to tinker with them excessively. You won't agree with all of my examples, but to me things like the Fantasyland dark rides and the redone river and train routes have been done appropriately and tastefully, as opposed to the garish junk that they've thrown into things like Pirates.

 

[PiratesMansion]

I appreciate the Lincoln show being there from a historical perspective, but what is the point of running an attraction that is far less than half full at every showing?

Because it's historically important to the park and Walt Disney, and realistically there's nothing else they can put there that's going to do any better long-term. They've tried to remove Lincoln since the seventies off and on, and it's still there because it's clear that people feel it's an important part of Disneyland.

In terms of backstage, the potential of the site for anything grander than what's already there is limited-it's right next to the parade route and the old administration building with the Primeval World diorama is right behind it. And it'd be difficult at best to add more queue or attraction space without sacrificing retail space-something modern Disney just isn't going to do.

In terms of guest count, the attraction's just too close to the park entrance (and too inconvenient to get to from the bulk of the park) to ever get huge numbers. As put in an article on Parkscope, where it is compared to Animal Kingdom's Oasis (full thing linked here):
I have many friends from my days at Disneyland who are absolutely stumped as to why Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln isn’t more popular than it is...My response is that there’s a line of demarcation that separates the theme park proper from the front entrance. Psychologically, once a guest is in the park, she will not explore down Main Street until she is seriously considering leaving the park. It’s a psychological barrier. The deeper she goes down Main Street toward the entrance, the more this is true. Once she makes it to the Hub at the beginning of her day, she will stay in the park proper to ride the attractions until she is thinking of leaving. Mr. Lincoln is so off the beaten path that only those who are just entering the park or who are leaving the park will attend, and once one makes the conscious decision to walk down Main Street to the end and see Mr. Lincoln, she will inevitably have to resist the temptation to leave the park.

There is a reason that none of the other Main Streets have attractions beyond the railroad, and it's not because Mr. Lincoln is a bad attraction. Hall of Presidents, the most similar attraction on the globe to Lincoln, is more popular not because there's more presidents, but because it's in a heavily trafficked section of the park. Realistically, there's very little you could put in Lincoln's spot and have it be a huge long-term draw (and the Muppets, allegedly at one point slated to replace Lincoln, wouldn't have done any better). Which is why the show remains what it is, and it's the perfect place for what's there-a little museum and history section of sorts. The perfect place for Lincoln.

Certainly there comes a point where paying the money to maintain and operate the attraction is no longer validated by the number of guests visiting it. Replacing it outright is hard, because of the lack of space, but space won't prevent them from tweaking the show every few years to try to encourage more guest visits. Lincoln is probably the one show that has had more updates (and also "permanent" closures) in park history.

It's one animatronic and a movie run by one person. They can manage.

I do think Lincoln serves a purpose.

If there ever comes a point at which Lincoln becomes too “vintage” for modern Disney my suggestion has been to move him/it to a museum if only because of the historical importance of the attraction beyond Disneyland as a World’s Fair attraction and technological marvel at the time.

But I think tinkering with the show around the edges every so often for contemporary audiences seems like the appropriate fix to keep a reasonable number guests coming through the doors, then that works too.

Put me in the "take it to the Walt Disney Family Museum if Disneyland decides they don't want to bother with it anymore" camp. And I do think it's like the Subs in that it's not what the modern Disney company would want there, but they're stuck with it because it's seen as one of the things that is iconic Disneyland by their audience. It is expected that he will be there, even if he's not highly trafficked, and so he stays.

 

[SuddenStorm]

Well said. In addition, it’s a real slippery slope. Is the ROA and TSI “working” by El Supers standards? I mean think of all the rides, stores and restaurants they could fit there. Hardly anybody rides those boats or goes to TSI.

While I can't back this up- I firmly believe Fantasmic's long term popularity has been a critical part of keeping the ROA around. Not only do you have the visual appeal of the island and riverboats, and the modest capacity bumps they provide during the day- at night Fantasmic can entertain about 10k people a show. Especially now that the rivers doubles as a firework viewing area.

 

[SuddenStorm]

What would be the point of replacing it with such little space? As you stated, it’s a historical attraction that some people still enjoy. That’s the point of running it.

I'm in the minority here- but Lincoln is something I 100% visit Disneyland to go see and is something I make a point to visit every time I'm at the park.

While Lincoln closing wouldn't stop me from going, like Splash closing does, it would further decrease my desire to go.

 

[mickEblu]

While I can't back this up- I firmly believe Fantasmic's long term popularity has been a critical part of keeping the ROA around. Not only do you have the visual appeal of the island and riverboats, and the modest capacity bumps they provide during the day- at night Fantasmic can entertain about 10k people a show. Especially now that the rivers doubles as a firework viewing area.

It’s a scary thought. I refuse to believe they re that stupid. We talk about a lot of things ruining Disneyland but getting rid of the ROA and TSI would literally ruin Disneyland. I think it’s more important than pretty much anything else in the park. It runs through the entire West side of the park and creates a beautiful setting/ ambiance for all those lands. Not to mention all the kinetic energy. I think it, more than anything else is what separates Disneyland from other theme parks.

 

[PiratesMansion]

While I can't back this up- I firmly believe Fantasmic's long term popularity has been a critical part of keeping the ROA around. Not only do you have the visual appeal of the island and riverboats, and the modest capacity bumps they provide during the day- at night Fantasmic can entertain about 10k people a show. Especially now that the rivers doubles as a firework viewing area.

There's no way the Columbia would still be around and operating without Fantasmic.

 

[SuddenStorm]

It’s a scary thought. I refuse to believe they re that stupid. We talk about a lot of things ruining Disneyland but getting rid of the ROA and TSI would literally ruin Disneyland. I think it’s more important than pretty much anything else in the park. It borders the entire West side of the park and creates a beautiful setting/ ambiance for all those lands. Not to mention all the kinetic energy. I think it, more than anything else is what separates Disneyland from other theme parks.

I mean they already shortened it by a third. I don't think it's outrageous to think that they would bring it down to a much smaller water feature and build an attraction on the back half, extending the Big Thunder Trail into where the rivers now sit.

That said, I think we'd lose Autopia before that happened- but if the last few years have taught us anything, nothing in Disneyland is sacred.

 

[mickEblu]

I mean they already shortened it by a third. I don't think it's outrageous to think that they would bring it down to a much smaller water feature and build an attraction on the back half, extending the Big Thunder Trail into where the rivers now sit.

That said, I think we'd lose Autopia before that happened- but if the last few years have taught us anything, nothing in Disneyland is sacred.

I mean I guess anything is possible and I certainly don’t trust them like I used to but it’s just hard for me to believe that would ever be seriously considered. I wonder even with Fantasmic, if it’s ever been discussed by Disney at any point.

For sure Autopia would go first and probably Storybookland too. But before either of those we still have Motorboat, FL theatre and most of Tomorrowland.

 

[Figments Friend]

A few more observations-

Baxter was involved with the current iteration of the show, so this is another Baxter project potentially getting altered. Every year his legacy in the park is lessened.

Almost like it is being done on purpose.



-

 

[PiratesMansion]

I mean I guess anything is possible and I certainly don’t trust them like I used to but it’s just hard for me to believe that would ever be seriously considered. I wonder even with Fantasmic, if it’s ever been discussed by Disney at any point.

For sure Autopia would go first and probably Storybookland too. But before either of those we still have Motorboat, FL theatre and most of Tomorrowland.

I don't know if they would ever have been tempted to go so far as to remove the entire river, but I feel like if it gets any smaller it puts Fantasmic in jeopardy. And since Fantasmic is clearly a meal ticket for them, I imagine the current incarnation of the river is unlikely to change.

I'm not sure they'd remove Storybook. It's wedged between Dumbo, the path to Toontown, and service roads, and I don't know that you'd get a much bigger building than the ones that house the FL dark rides. They could probably jury rig the attraction to run on a cable system so that the boats could operate sans-cast members as they do in Paris if they ever got really concerned with the labor the attraction requires. At any rate, the theater would certainly go first.

Autopia probably isn't tenable in its current state forever, but it's been saved by the fact that you'd need to also mess with the Monorail, Peoplemover, and Subs in order to do anything meaningful with the area. It might honestly be easier to see if they can get something to function on the Peoplemover track rather than muck with everything else over there, at least in the short term, but who knows.

Luckily for them, they have a whole other park across the esplanade to ruin where people are much less concerned about what is or is not sacred.

 

[Practical Pig]

It’s a scary thought. I refuse to believe they re that stupid. We talk about a lot of things ruining Disneyland but getting rid of the ROA and TSI would literally ruin Disneyland. I think it’s more important than pretty much anything else in the park. It borders the entire West side of the park and creates a beautiful setting/ ambiance for all those lands. Not to mention all the kinetic energy. I think it, more than anything else is what separates Disneyland from other theme parks.

There are heart-parts of Disneyland for me, that without them it would just be another theme park. The ROA with both ships, and TSI along with the classic Fantasyland dark rides, Storybook Land Canal Boats/Casey Junior, Lincoln, and parts of The Jungle Cruise. I can't imagine or want a Disneyland without them.

But ...

 

[GiveMeTheMusic]

Disney tried to sell OLC on replacing their Rivers/TSI with Cars Land at Tokyo Disneyland. OLC declined.

 

[GiveMeTheMusic]

That said, it’s never been considered for any other park, including DL.

 

[mickEblu]

Disney tried to sell OLC on replacing their Rivers/TSI with Cars Land at Tokyo Disneyland. OLC declined.

Good for OLC. If I was OLC I would have said “you first.”

So Sad

 

[mickEblu]

That said, it’s never been considered for any other park, including DL.

Yeah I guess that was a “no lose” for Disney. Make more money off Tokyo Disneyland from the Cars Land addition. Do they not think Japanese people care about something like the Rivers of America or does Disney just not give a damn? Regardless it’s a major component of a that park/ a Castle Park. I think it’s telling that they haven’t considered it for the parks stateside though… or any park they own. If I was OLC I’m not sure I could trust Disney after a suggestion like that.

 

[PiratesMansion]

Yeah I guess that was a “no lose” for Disney. Make more money off Tokyo Disneyland from the Cars Land addition. Do they not think Japanese people care about something like the Rivers of America or does Disney just not give a damn? Regardless it’s a major component of a that park/ a Castle Park. I think it’s telling that they haven’t considered it for the parks stateside though… or any park they own. If I was OLC I’m not sure I could trust Disney after a suggestion like that.

Pretty much. They're always trying to sell OLC on whatever they're most proud of (or what they think might land them the most money) and have made a habit of making big shows at the Japanese D23 of whatever they're trying to pitch the OLC on at any given moment.

This particular rumor came about in 2014 or so? I remember reading about it on Micechat. '

As for do they think the Japanese don't care or if they don't give a damn about the river: I will say that the river in Japan is much more cut off from the rest of the park than it is anywhere else because of how they built the railroad. You have to either go under the train trestle and walk along a very small area of Westernland that's somewhat removed from the rest of the area OR be in Critter Country to really see the river. If there's any castle park where I could absolutely see someone going and not even realizing there's a massive river in the park, Tokyo would be it. It's not like the ones in the US, Paris, or even Hong Kong with its Jungle Cruise where you're gonna see the river if you walk in that part of the park at all. Perhaps that's why Disney felt they could approach OLC about gutting the river.

Not saying I'd laud the decision to remove the river, but I suppose I can understand it potentially being expendable at that particular park because of how and where it's placed relative to everything else.

 

[el_super]

I think Lincoln does just fine, for a few reasons aside from the historical stuff.

From a personal subjective opinion or objectively looking at the crowd/audiences?

I'm not doubting that it's culturally/historically important. I think I would like to see it stay, and I think the current incarnation (closer to the original) is probably the best they've had in a long time.

It is still however, a museum piece with poor attendance and as long as attendance is poor, they will be inclined to change it.

It only requires one CM to run the show, so theoretically the labor costs of running the attraction, and only having to maintain one animatronic means it isn't necessarily a huge financial burden to operate.

Probably not compared to something like the Subs, but I'd still imagine that, by whatever metrics they're using to calculate revenue by turnstile clicks, it's under water financially. One of the things that I think saved Lincoln for years (if not decades) was that Disneyland used the Opera House auditorium for town halls and special events. Since they've mostly moved those to the Hyperion, there is less need to keep a covered auditorium at Disneyland.