if Walt WAS racist, would you care?

[goofyfan13]

Walt was a Christian too you know.

If your trying to say that Walt wasn't racist because he was Christian, there have been and are plenty of racist Christians even to this day.

As Rob said, Walt grew up in the Midwest in the segregation era, chances are he had a little racist in him. With that in mind, I don't care that he might have been a racist. If he grew up now and was racist, my opinion might be a little different, but the ideologies back then were totally different than they are now.

BTW, William Rehnquist was racist, and a lot of people know who he is.

 

[ctwhalerman]

BTW, William Rehnquist was racist, and a lot of people know who he is.

Don't forget Woodrow Wilson and George Wallace and Strom Thurmond and Trent Lott and Antonin Scalia and Barry Goldwater and Jesse Helms and...

 

[Videoteck]

If your trying to say that Walt wasn't racist because he was Christian, there have been and are plenty of racist Christians even to this day.

As Rob said, Walt grew up in the Midwest in the segregation era, chances are he had a little racist in him. With that in mind, I don't care that he might have been a racist. If he grew up now and was racist, my opinion might be a little different, but the ideologies back then were totally different than they are now.

BTW, William Rehnquist was racist, and a lot of people know who he is.

Sorry thats not what I meant to say, as long as he really never expressed his this "hate" in public I dont care besides I am sure everyone has said something bad at least once. Him being a christian just shows that he knows some family principles(thats what some christians study).

 

[KentB3]

I thought I'd share this quote from Maurice Rapf, who was one of the writers hired for Song of the South, but was reassigned to Cinderella after his input for the script was rejected. This is taken from the book, Mouse Under Glass: Secrets of Disney Animation and Theme Parks, by David Koenig:

"Walt wasn't racist, he was hoping NOT to offend the blacks. He had a theory that the reason why the film was picketed and particularly attacked by the Los Angeles chapter of the NAACP was because the head of the local chapter was actor Clarence Muse. He knew that Walt Disney wanted to do a Remus story, and Muse really wanted to play Remus. He was a standard serious actor, but Disney got someone else. Now others said that couldn't be true, because Muse was a technnical adviser on the film, though I think if that's true he didn't do a very good job advising."

In fact, I even had the good fortune of meeting Maurice Rapf at an animation film festival back in 1995, and he briefly recalled this incident in our conversation there! :animwink:

 

[The Mom]

Just a hypothetical question.

If a researcher found a safe, effective treatment that cured all cancers, would you refuse to use it, or allow anyone in your family to use it, because that person was also a member of the KKK? Or would you celebrate the discovery but despise the discoverer?

As mentioned a gazillion times, it's wrong to try to judge past behavior based on today's standards. That doesn't mean that we should allow certain actions to continue just because "that's the way it's always been done" but we also should look at the INTENT of the actions.

People of Walt's era (which includes my parents) truly had no idea that their words and view of others was offensive to certain groups. It was so ingrained in them, that they had no conscious thought about it, nor any logical reason to support it. Trust me, I've been down that road, and hit a dead end.

It's hard for the younger generation to understand and appreciate how much things have changed in MY lifetime alone. My daughter will never be able to understand how I felt growing up in a world where so many doors were closed to me because I was a woman, nevermind how many MORE doors were closed to others because they were of a different race, religion, nationality, etc.

That doesn't mean that all of those doors are open today; it's just not as obvious that they're still locked. Nor should we stop striving to open them all. BUT, others of Walt's generation DID finally realize that their views were hateful and hurtful, and DID make changes. I would like to think that Walt would have realized this also, and changed his way of looking at and treating people.

 

[Computer Magic]

Just a hypothetical question.

If a researcher found a safe, effective treatment that cured all cancers, would you refuse to use it, or allow anyone in your family to use it, because that person was also a member of the KKK? Or would you celebrate the discovery but despise the discoverer?

As mentioned a gazillion times, it's wrong to try to judge past behavior based on today's standards. That doesn't mean that we should allow certain actions to continue just because "that's the way it's always been done" but we also should look at the INTENT of the actions.

People of Walt's era (which includes my parents) truly had no idea that their words and view of others was offensive to certain groups. It was so ingrained in them, that they had no conscious thought about it, nor any logical reason to support it. Trust me, I've been down that road, and hit a dead end.

It's hard for the younger generation to understand and appreciate how much things have changed in MY lifetime alone. My daughter will never be able to understand how I felt growing up in a world where so many doors were closed to me because I was a woman, nevermind how many MORE doors were closed to others because they were of a different race, religion, nationality, etc.

That doesn't mean that all of those doors are open today; it's just not as obvious that they're still locked. Nor should we stop striving to open them all. BUT, others of Walt's generation DID finally realize that their views were hateful and hurtful, and DID make changes. I would like to think that Walt would have realized this also, and changed his way of looking at and treating people.

well stated.....I do think Walt would have changed with the times and hold the door open for EVERYONE!!!

 

[goofyfan13]

Sorry thats not what I meant to say, as long as he really never expressed his this "hate" in public I dont care besides I am sure everyone has said something bad at least once. Him being a christian just shows that he knows some family principles(thats what some christians study).

Alright, that makes more sense. :wave:

Don't forget Woodrow Wilson and George Wallace and Strom Thurmond and Trent Lott and Antonin Scalia and Barry Goldwater and Jesse Helms and...

Nice list! :wave:

 

[Mr.Pickles]

Mr.Pickles finds this thread very amusing, simply because of a simple question asked, it seems almost everyone has to defend Mr.Disney.

Mr.Pickles will explain, just because you like Disney World or Disneyland, it does not make you a bad person or racist because Walt was racist. Mr.Pickles thinks the romantic response is to say Walt was a product of the times, but in all honesty NOBODY KNOWS, only Walt does and last Mr.Pickles checked he was not talking.

If Walt was a racist, would you care?

Mr.Pickles responds no.

Mr.Pickles tip of the day #8:

Mr.Pickles thinks some topics should not be discussed, unless people are prepared for the truth.

 

[imagineer boy]

One thing I noticed, Muhammed Ali made a visit to DL while Walt was still alive. When was DL officially segregated?

And another thing, I just recently watched the Disneyland after dark episode, and during the monorail segment at the beginning, you can clearly see a black women in a pink dress disembark the monorail. Now if I'm not mistaken, that footage is old and was reused for that certain show.

 

[Woody13]

One thing I noticed, Muhammed Ali made a visit to DL while Walt was still alive. When was DL officially segregated?

And another thing, I just recently watched the Disneyland after dark episode, and during the monorail segment at the beginning, you can clearly see a black women in a pink dress disembark the monorail. Now if I'm not mistaken, that footage is old and was reused for that certain show.

The U.S. Supreme Court officially ended racial segregation in May of 1954. However, it took a long time for the actual implementation of desegregation to take place. California was is no big hurry to desegregate. For example, some schools in California did not desegregate until 1970!

At Disneyland in 1955 it was a mixed process. Your observation about the Disneyland After Dark episode is correct. I will also add that Sammy Davis Jr. was an invited guest to the opening of Disneyland in 1955. He is seen riding in the Autotopia Cars. However, these are exceptions to the rule.

You must understand that at that time, many white people thought of black people as uneducated vermin (they were then called "negroes", that was the polite term). White people would not share the same restroom, water fountain, school or swimming pool with a person of color.

From my youth, I remember the signs posted at restrooms and water fountains that said, "Colored" and "White" in various public places. I never saw such signs at Disneyland, but in the 1950's, white people did not "mix" with people of color. Everything was segregated including housing developments, restaurants, grocery stores, department stores, schools, amusement parks, etc.

Also, things haven't changed very much. Where I live, blacks stay in their part of town and whites stay in their part of town too. When I visit WDW, I see very few black guests. So, segregation is still part of our society. :wave:

 

[SteveUK]

I think this question is a very difficult one, because when I considered it the first thing I thought was - it depends on your definition of racist.

The way we view race relations today is very different from the way it was years ago. I think the argument that many people are tendering about ignorance is a dangerous one. Today you will find in many areas - including law, ignorance is no excuse for discrimination. If however, you mean that racial differentiation was simply a product of the age, then I agree. Any definition of belief means nothing unless you can site it in its socio-political context.

There is no evidence I have seen to suggest that Walt was an activist against certain groups. If you are referring to certain amounts of discriminatory comments/language that can be attributed to the age, then I would say that whilst this is wrong and unfortunate in todays terms, I think the time and environment in which Walt lived should serve as a certain level of mitigation.

 

[ctwhalerman]

Mr.Pickles responds no.

Mr.Pickles tip of the day #8:

Mr.Pickles thinks some topics should not be discussed, unless people are prepared for the truth.

With all the third-person references, I'm wondering who let Bob Dole in the forum

"Bob Dole wants what is best for Bob Dole"

 

[The Mom]

Also, things haven't changed very much. Were I live, blacks stay in their part of town and whites stay in their part of town too. When I visit WDW, I see very few black guests. So, segregation is still part of our society. :wave:

I recall reading a statement recently which I believe is true.

Most cities are more or less integrated M-F from 9-5, but become more segregated on Saturday, and are more or less segregated on Sunday. Also, one place that is usually segregated is your local funeral home.

In the past, these places were segregated due to law. Now it's by tradition. "My parents went there, my grandparents went there, so I'm going to go there, too."

 

[KentB3]

Here is a quote I found from a Usenet post a few years back (Google groups search), which I think should be on topic:

About six years ago Hal Roach and Spanky McFarland came to Dallas for a couple of programs where they presented many Laurel & Hardy, Harold Lloyd, Our Gang and other Roach short comedies. During the question and answer period that followed, someone stood up and denounced Mr. Roach for being a racist because the Our Gang comedies portrayed black stereotypes. Spanky, who was surely 60 years old by then, actually cried when he heard this. He defended Roach and said that Roach treated all of the black kids and their families the same as the white kids. Spanky said that no other producer at the time would dare show a black person and a white person as friends. Sadly, both Spanky and Hal passed away a few months later.

 

[kcnole]

I definitely think you have to look at this in its time period. Mr. Walt acted as almost every white male acted at that point. It was socially accepted that blacks were less than whites. Most people didn't challenge that notion. That doesn't make it right, but again you can't judge people of a different time based on the common social understandings of today. I don't think Walt would have been considered a racist during his day (if that term even existed.) To me a racist of that day would have been someone active in an organization such as the KKK which there is no proof that he was.

Luckily there were some progressive thinkers during those times that helped change America's mind on certain issues and hopefully Walt's mind would have changed over the years as well.

So there's no way to know. So unless some proof comes out that he was a member of the KKK or something I'll still have the same respect for him that I have now.

 

[imagineer boy]

Also, things haven't changed very much. Were I live, blacks stay in their part of town and whites stay in their part of town too. When I visit WDW, I see very few black guests. So, segregation is still part of our society. :wave:

Its like that at my school. Blacks sit at their own tables, and whites sit at their own tables at lunch. I wouldn't nessessarily call it segregation or racist, its just that black people tend to have more in common with other black people, and white people tend to have more in common with other white people. That's just the way things are. But usually outside of lunch, you can see some integration.

 

[wedway71]

I remember seeing a pic of Walt reading a book to 3 or 4 children in which one was black in Disneyland' earlier photos.Was he racist?Well you have to ask about who Walt was and where he came from.He came from the midwest in the early part of this century in which most people were in fact either racist or had come across people who were.I dont think he rose to the levels of KKK or Nazis but Im sure had some type of ignorance towards ethnic groups to some level.Does this make him evil? I think just think he was an unfortunate product of his times.

 

[KentB3]

All this talk here reminds me of a quote I found on one of the Intenet Movie Database forums, by Fred "Mister" Rogers from a late 1960's episode of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood. He tells his young viewers "this is a manhole. Not a womanhole, not a boyhole, and not a girl hole. It's called a manhole because a man goes down there". That would be offensive by today's standards, since both men and women enter manholes nowadays. However, this didn't mean Mr. Rogers was anti-female, it was just a reflection of the culture of the time period. Therefore, I suppose the same can be said of Walt Disney himself! :animwink:

 

[The Mom]

Here's an example of "product of their times" that I ran into last weekend.

Apparently, the term "freshman" will no longer be used at many colleges; they will be first year students. Apparently some people found the term offensive? :veryconfu

I suspect I'll continue to say "freshman" until the day I die, but I'm sure I'll be called anti-feminist because of it. And someone looking back at me in 50 years might consider me to have been ignorant for using the word.

 

[Gmax]

As a Black woman, I would care if Walt Disney was a racist. It would concern me that all year, I'm saving up to visit a resort whose creator would not want me nor my family there, and consider us less human than he.

I believe that now the responsibilty falls on those currently in power at Disney. It is 2006, and Blacks still have not been featured in animated movies, nor are there any Black princes, or princesses.

It's impossible to rewrite the past, but they can do something now.