Hyperion Wharf: any news?

[rioriz]

Not to mention Universal City Walk is adding a boardwalk section.
Just what is going on with Disney? Are they really hurting for money to use on WDW that bad? Do we need another dozen hotels before a club is added to Downtown?
I'd say Fantasyland is the cause, but Universal was able to do Harry Potter and still have money for a Jaws removal, new dark ride, Spiderman refurbish and expanded Citywalk with minigolf!

Wdw is not hurting for money but is stuck in the complacency Uni was for almost a decade after IOA was built. Look at what Uni added versus WDW in the years after IOA oened. Their fans were complaining for years u til they got their Potter payoff.

WDW has taken their slow time because they felt they could afford to. With new Potter opening soon they will be forced to do something to answer. By all means this anything is still years away.

 

[menamechris]

Anything that is put in there, Disney will essentially be giving away to anyone who parks their car and walks up to it. With that in mind, I have my expectations set on very low... I can't imagine TDO going all with a completely immersive and beautifully themed area unless they are charging for it.

Unless there is a plan for it to be a gated/ticketed area similar to PI, but I think we can all agree that is virtually impossible if they are bringing in outside vendors...

 

[John]

Anything that is put in there, Disney will essentially be giving away to anyone who parks their car and walks up to it. With that in mind, I have my expectations set on very low... I can't imagine TDO going all with a completely immersive and beautifully themed area unless they are charging for it.

Unless there is a plan for it to be a gated/ticketed area similar to PI, but I think we can all agree that is virtually impossible if they are bringing in outside vendors...

Yea, Anytime I here "outside vendor" I get more then a little nervous. Lets give credit where credit is due. When Disney does decide to do something they pretty much do it one way (atleast in the past). If it is an outside vendor Disney has less control over product. I feel better hearing it from Raven but I still hold judgement till I see atleast somekind of ground breaking. Not even concept art will get me worked up. ( been down that road before).

If it was anybody else but Raven I would have immediately dismissed it. Might be intresting that we havnt heard from Lee yet. Lee is most quiet when something is brewing........hmmmmmm

 

[Scuttle]

Not sure when you were last in downtown Orlando, but that isn't quite right. I was just there the other night for a concert and while driving around to find a place to park (I'd rather walk a few blocks and park for free than pay $10 :lol: ) I noticed that not only was Church Street lit up in plenty of neon signs, but quite a few other clubs and bars are thriving around downtown as well. CityWalk is far from the only place in town for a good club/bar experience.

I second this. Church street is happening more than ever now. Take a stroll down Orange Ave on a Friday and you'll see what I mean. Downtown was absolutely insane during the all star weekend.

 

[zulemara]

well it looks as though HW is indeed dead as reported a little over a year ago by the SPI blog.

A permit was found for a big sign made by Sign Producers, Inc.

It seems an announcement could be soon. This combined with insiders saying an announcement is soon puts it in the near future I think.

http://savepleasureisland.blogspot.com/2012/06/pi-update-is-pi-announcement-imminent.html

/discuss

 

[djkidkaz]

Interesting! I hope we hear and see something soon.

 

[WDW1974]

Nope.

Nothing ... although a friend told me they dined at Paradiso 37 and thought it was lousy. But I'd hardly call that newsworthy.

 

[saxamoophone]

I second this. Church street is happening more than ever now. Take a stroll down Orange Ave on a Friday and you'll see what I mean. Downtown was absolutely insane during the all star weekend.

Well between UCF and Valencia there are about 100,000 college students in the Orlando Area. Quite a few of them find there way downtown on any given weekend .

Disney needs to act fast with their DTD plans. There are two massive entertainment areas coming together along I-DRIVE just south of sand lake. I imagine a lot of third-party vendors are going to be picking their locations soon.

 

[Mouse Detective]

I imagine a lot of third-party vendors are going to be picking their locations soon.

The only third-party vendor Disney concerns itself with is Levy Restaurants and whether Levy wants to run another couple restaurants at DTD. The restaurant concepts come from Schussler Creative but Levy runs them.

 

[jt04]

I second this. Church street is happening more than ever now. Take a stroll down Orange Ave on a Friday and you'll see what I mean. Downtown was absolutely insane during the all star weekend.

I explained that this is exactly what would happen about a year ago or more.

And it is why I seriously doubt traditional "clubs" are returning to DTD.

It is good for TWDC to have a thriving downtown Orlando. Instead of competing with CSS they are better off complimenting it with product that is in line with what fits the Disney brand. So rather that competing in this situation it could best be described as 'symbiotic'.

And it will be good for the mouse and Orlando. Win-win.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I explained that this is exactly what would happen about a year ago or more.

And it is why I seriously doubt traditional "clubs" are returning to DTD.

It is good for TWDC to have a thriving downtown Orlando. Instead of competing with CSS they are better off complimenting it with product that is in line with what fits the Disney brand. So rather that competing in this situation it could best be described as 'symbiotic'.

And it will be good for the mouse and Orlando. Win-win.

So... You're saying you believe that at the Executive Level at TDO and TWDC they're OKAY with knowing they're losing revenue to competition, and that they encourage that.

Mkay.

 

[HenryMystic]

So... You're saying you believe that at the Executive Level at TDO and TWDC they're OKAY with knowing they're losing revenue to competition, and that they encourage that.

Mkay.

Correct. To believe that is folly.

 

[scottnj1966]

I'm sorry but am I at the wrong Downtown Disney area everyone else is talking about?
It does not matter what day you go there the parking lot if packed.
Disney is not hurting for money in that area at all.
They removed the clubs because it was becoming a haven for the wrong element. They were in the news many times about fights and robberies.
They decided enough was enough.
The Orlando Sentinal has already said Hyperion Warf is dead. Not sure why it keep being brought up. Not enough companies wanting to join at the time.
Also I need to point out that at least on the weekends the Pleasure Island part of DTD is far from dead. Yes the clubs are closed and two buildings are gone but they still have places to buy drinks, live entertainment, and things like that.

As for Universal. They have to do everything and anything to survive. Harry Potter saved them. Before that they were trying to get all of us Florida Residents in by giving us two year passes and free water.
So many things are always forgotten.

Now dont get me wrong Universal is a fun place, the quality and friendliness is not there. Its like a Six Flags but with great theming.

Disney will do something with Pleasure Island when they are done with the huge projects they got going on now. I'm pretty sure they are not to worried about it.
they make a killing selling plush toys anyway.

 

[alissafalco]

I'm sorry but am I at the wrong Downtown Disney area everyone else is talking about?
It does not matter what day you go there the parking lot if packed.
Disney is not hurting for money in that area at all.
They removed the clubs because it was becoming a haven for the wrong element. They were in the news many times about fights and robberies.
They decided enough was enough.
The Orlando Sentinal has already said Hyperion Warf is dead. Not sure why it keep being brought up. Not enough companies wanting to join at the time.
Also I need to point out that at least on the weekends the Pleasure Island part of DTD is far from dead. Yes the clubs are closed and two buildings are gone but they still have places to buy drinks, live entertainment, and things like that.

As for Universal. They have to do everything and anything to survive. Harry Potter saved them. Before that they were trying to get all of us Florida Residents in by giving us two year passes and free water.
So many things are always forgotten.

Now dont get me wrong Universal is a fun place, the quality and friendliness is not there. Its like a Six Flags but with great theming.

Disney will do something with Pleasure Island when they are done with the huge projects they got going on now. I'm pretty sure they are not to worried about it.
they make a killing selling plush toys anyway.

Well said! I agree 100%, especially about the quality and friendliness aspect. I cant even begin to tell you how differently we were treated with a child with special needs between Disney and Universal. That is the main reason that my husband and i will most likely never go back to universal.

 

[Mouse Detective]

1. It does not matter what day you go there the parking lot is packed.
2. Disney is not hurting for money in that area at all.
3. They removed the clubs because it was becoming a haven for the wrong element. They were in the news many times about fights and robberies.
4. They decided enough was enough.
5. The Orlando Sentinal has already said Hyperion Warf is dead.

1) False. Until 5pm during the week you can easily park in any DTD lot.
2) False. They've left millions of dollars on the table by offering nothing for years now.
3) False. Fights and robberies occured after the clubs were closed.
4) False. They decided they could make more money leasing spaces to third party operators who would pay them rent. It was purely a business decision. They were wrong but that was the basis of the decision. Had nothing to do with enough was enough.
5) False. The Sentinel has never said that.

 

[jt04]

So... You're saying you believe that at the Executive Level at TDO and TWDC they're OKAY with knowing they're losing revenue to competition, and that they encourage that.

Mkay.

Back in the day this is exactly how they thought. They had the idea that if Church Street Staton was doing well and guests were leaving property that this meant lost revenue. However, I think that strategy has now been debunked.

I think the goal is to make greater Orlando and central Florida an even bigger player in the global tourism business. That means they need attractions that appeal to wider and wider demographics. By adding clubs at DTD that compete directly with those in Orlando it keeps Orlando from realizing its potential. A thriving nightlife in Orlando creates a more diverse destination for single adults and childless couples who would not otherwise travel to the area. And they are likely also then going to spend time at the parks. The beaches on both coasts likely also will be marketed to attract the same demo. As will eco style vacations for those who want to experience Florida's amazing natural treasures.

As evidence consider this. If this were 20 years ago Disney would have made the Lego folks as miserable as possible if they had of announced they were building a theme park nearby. Instead, Disney allowed them to upgrade their store at DTD and the merchandise is still sold in the parks. This is new thinking by the mouse.

Just one example of how Disney sees things with a much wider field of vision and is approaching the marketing of WDW in a much more 'holistic' manner.

Mkay?

Read this post again and you will gain even more brain cells. :wave:

 

[71jason]

It is good for TWDC to have a thriving downtown Orlando. Instead of competing with CSS they are better off complimenting it with product that is in line with what fits the Disney brand. So rather that competing in this situation it could best be described as 'symbiotic'.

And it will be good for the mouse and Orlando. Win-win.

So... You're saying you believe that at the Executive Level at TDO and TWDC they're OKAY with knowing they're losing revenue to competition, and that they encourage that.

Mkay.

Having spent a ton of time in PI and a fair amount of time downtown both in Church St. Station's final days and today, there's a fundamental flaw in these arguments. The current crowds downtown and the potential target audience for a Disney nightlife experience are completely different.

PI was conceived in the 1980s, when Orlando and the tourism industry were fundamentally different. Most guests drove here, and most of the rest rented a car. There were limited hotels on property, a lot of the land west of WDW was orange groves, so the major "hub" for tourist hotels was still northern I-Drive (a good 15 minutes closer to downtown than WDW). And Orlando was still a small Southern city. It was the perfect storm to allow CSC to thrive.

Flash-forward to 2012. Thanks to Magic Express, fewer people drive. And many that do stay in the newer hotels/developments west of DTD; Orange Lake, for example, is at least 20 to 25 minutes further away from downtown than I-Drive. Traffic is more of a bear, too, because the city of Orlando has exploded with growth.

At the same time, the "real" Orlando has fundamentally changed. When CSC opened, Deltona was still a retirement community and Heathrow didn't exist--CSC relied on tourists because it had no other customer base. Since then, many new companies have opened in Orange and Seminole counties, even corporate headquarters. At the same time, UCF went from another regional commuter school to the largest university in Florida. There are a lot more (young) locals within a half hour of downtown than there were in 1987. Downtown caters to them now, not tourists.

Most of the kids downtown these days never went to PI--partly because it was too much hassle, but mostly because they weren't 21 as of September 2008. If even 5% of the typical Friday night crowd on Orange Avenue were not locals, I would be shocked.


At the same time, the need for nightlife for tourists hasn't disappeared, we just need to realize it would have to be a more centralized location than CSC was. But bringing downtown into a discussion of PI is like discussing pay phones at Art of Animation.

 

[jt04]

Having spent a ton of time in PI and a fair amount of time downtown both in Church St. Station's final days and today, there's a fundamental flaw in these arguments. The current crowds downtown and the potential target audience for a Disney nightlife experience are completely different.

PI was conceived in the 1980s, when Orlando and the tourism industry were fundamentally different. Most guests drove here, and most of the rest rented a car. There were limited hotels on property, a lot of the land west of WDW was orange groves, so the major "hub" for tourist hotels was still northern I-Drive (a good 15 minutes closer to downtown than WDW). And Orlando was still a small Southern city. It was the perfect storm to allow CSC to thrive.

Flash-forward to 2012. Thanks to Magic Express, fewer people drive. And many that do stay in the newer hotels/developments west of DTD; Orange Lake, for example, is at least 20 to 25 minutes further away from downtown than I-Drive. Traffic is more of a bear, too, because the city of Orlando has exploded with growth.

At the same time, the "real" Orlando has fundamentally changed. When CSC opened, Deltona was still a retirement community and Heathrow didn't exist--CSC relied on tourists because it had no other customer base. Since then, many new companies have opened in Orange and Seminole counties, even corporate headquarters. At the same time, UCF went from another regional commuter school to the largest university in Florida. There are a lot more (young) locals within a half hour of downtown than there were in 1987. Downtown caters to them now, not tourists.

Most of the kids downtown these days never went to PI--partly because it was too much hassle, but mostly because they weren't 21 as of September 2008. If even 5% of the typical Friday night crowd on Orange Avenue were not locals, I would be shocked.


At the same time, the need for nightlife for tourists hasn't disappeared, we just need to realize it would have to be a more centralized location than CSC was. But bringing downtown into a discussion of PI is like discussing pay phones at Art of Animation.

I understand what you are saying and time will tell who is right. I think you underestimate Orlando's potential as a tourist draw over time.

 

[Disday]

Is there any truth to the Disney Gossip rumor about them doubling the size of Downtown Disney. It says things like Pleasure Island will have two levels, there will be a lot of entertainment space, and a new parking structure with an entertainment area above it. They were allegedly reviewing the proposal. It sounds pretty ambitious to me.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Back in the day this is exactly how they thought. They had the idea that if Church Street Staton was doing well and guests were leaving property that this meant lost revenue. However, I think that strategy has now been debunked.

I think the goal is to make greater Orlando and central Florida an even bigger player in the global tourism business. That means they need attractions that appeal to wider and wider demographics. By adding clubs at DTD that compete directly with those in Orlando it keeps Orlando from realizing its potential. A thriving nightlife in Orlando creates a more diverse destination for single adults and childless couples who would not otherwise travel to the area. And they are likely also then going to spend time at the parks. The beaches on both coasts likely also will be marketed to attract the same demo. As will eco style vacations for those who want to experience Florida's amazing natural treasures.

As evidence consider this. If this were 20 years ago Disney would have made the Lego folks as miserable as possible if they had of announced they were building a theme park nearby. Instead, Disney allowed them to upgrade their store at DTD and the merchandise is still sold in the parks. This is new thinking by the mouse.

Just one example of how Disney sees things with a much wider field of vision and is approaching the marketing of WDW in a much more 'holistic' manner.

Mkay?

Read this post again and you will gain even more brain cells. :wave:

How in the world has the thought that Disney doesn't want you to leave property and spend any money elsewhere been debunked??? By closing PI?? They didn't close PI as a way to allow distribution of income to surrounding locations. They closed PI because they thought they'd build a newer, bigger shopping and dining area that 3rd party leasees would flock to, and Disney themselves wouldn't have to run those locations anymore. They'd just get to be the landlord, plus take a cut off the top, all with very little risk. The problem is they put the cart before the horse, and obviously overestimated the demand from 3rd parties. So now we're stuck with years of empty buildings. It's that simple.

Disney wants every vacation penny you can possibly spend. Magical Express. Free transportation on property. Benefits for hotel guests (including FP+ in the near future?). Dining plans. MYW tickets. Even how they schedule park hours and events at the parks is geared toward making a family want to stay on property each evening, so they don't miss this or that.

Not one thing points to Disney trying to "spread the wealth" around Orlando. Singles and childless couples that might be looking for clubs don't care if they're at Citywalk, DTD, or Church street. Location doesn't matter... The experience does. In fact, I'd imagine they'd like clubs at EACH of these locations, so they didn't have to drive or take cabs. They could stay wherever they were located.

Your obsession with Legoland is funny. It may or may not be something Disney is concerned about... I don't know, and neither do you. I do know that it's similar in distance from Busch Gardens Tampa, and we hear very little about Disney's moves directed at keeping guests away from there... Not like we hear about with Uni or SW. I'd imagine the Lego stores and products are covered via contract in a similar way Spidey is covered down the street at Uni. Will Disney want them out after the contract? Who knows. I'd imagine it depends on Disney's research and what they find regarding missing any market share to Legoland between now and when the contract is up.

This stuff is not THAT difficult. You constantly strive to make massive conspiracies out of things that, business-wise, are fairly mundane. I really don't get it. Most of this stuff is common sense, and doesn't take some sort of group of business scholoars within Disney to come up with. I picture you sitting in the dark at your computer with a tinfoil hat, and cell phone jamming equipment forming a perimeter around your home.