HUGE news/rumors

[Crazy Harry]

I understand it's your point of view, but your original statement appeared to be very fact based and I honestly couldn't think of any attractions that were worse off after a character was added. I can think of a couple where some people feel that way, but they have no actual data to back their claims.

You have no data either, does that make your arguement invalid as well?

It's fun... Again, we can only see this from our points of view, but do you honestly believe the revue was successful prior to the change?

Is it any better now? If not what was the point of the change to begin with? Also, how does it fit this area of the park? If it were just goofy and classic characters dressed in period attire I would have less to say.

These are only rumors and with the exception of the Cars overlay, appear to have little legitamacy. I can see a Cars overlay simply because it makes sense. What does the current attraction have to do with Tomorrowland? Absolutely nothing. So why not enhance it?

How does adding "Cars" enhance the ride to be appropriate for the area while in it's current form you say has nothing to do with the area? I agree it doesn't either way, move it to test track at epcot and put a tron ride there. There is a good example of a property with terific environements and characters perfect for a theme park attraction and increase interest in the property if executed properly.

I understand your point of view but it seems a little narrow to me. Attractions are still being built and changes are still being made that do not include characters. But there are places where they make sense. Is JC one of them? I really don't know since we don't have a clue as to how they may be used. I personally can see it working, but I can also see how it could be disruptive.

Characters are a *huge* part of the Disney culture. There are times when you have to just sit back and remember that Disney is a business and they should exploit their properties to affect their bottom line. To date, I've not seen that exploitation negatively affect the long term duration of the parks, but rather an attempt to create more enjoyment for the guests walking through the gates.

I suppose my views are narrow from a certain point of view. I am choosing to focus on one aspect of which I disagree; what's wrong with that? I'm not contending the one's that make sense, I am contending those I don't feel make any sense at all IMO. Any way those characters would be used for Jungle Cruise would be disruptive unless you change the entire attraction. The Lion King charactoon characters have a completely different tone from the current state of the attraction. The Jungle Cruise is ment to be a fairly life like portrail of a jungle river safari and the addition of thses characters would spoil the tone and remove the rider from it's intended experience. Simply put, what do Timon and Pumba have to do with the Jungle Cruise? They don't fit. They fit in attractions, stores, restaurants, or areas specifically themed either to them or the Lion King. There are important and appropriate uses of characters, and this is not one of them. I don't contend the use of popular characters as long as they are used appropriatly and effectively. The seas with Nemo is a good example of one that is a fantastic idea and from the look and sound of it bound for success as I stated earlier.

Just because there is an attempt to bring guests through the door does not mean it isn't illfated. Disney has shown several instances of not knowing what they are doing. The quest for the all mighty dollar has caused a decline in guest satisfaction with the brand of themeparks. Disney is a buisness, and as such can be one of any run poorly. Now, I am NOT suggesting adding characters will send people packing, but what I'm saying is not every decision they make is a good one. You say they have to watch out for their bottom line. Will providing the consumer with a good product not do this? HKDL was built undersized and with few attractions to save money, but with not enough space and little to keep people coming back they have possibly lost more money than they would have spent making the park a higher quality product. Same with DCA, or beginning years of AK. Have they made all of the wrong choices, no, but they are certainly not without vast flaw. It's like if a store was trying to save money by not employing enough people to tend to their guests and lost those sales because of it. Sure, take advantage of the properties, but in a more productive and appropriate way.

Oh, and thanks for the discussion, this is good stuff. I'd be nice if there was more friendly yet competitve discussion on these boards, but I haven't been here in a while so maybe the times are changing.

 

[dxwwf3]

Oh, and thanks for the discussion, this is good stuff. I'd be nice if there was more friendly yet competitve discussion on these boards, but I haven't been here in a while so maybe the times are changing.

That's one thing about wannab. If you are civil and you know what you are talking about, you can have a very friendly and worthwhile disagreement discussion with him. He may make you wanna pull your hair out of your head sometimes (), but he knows his stuff and is very firm in his beliefs.

 

[wannab@dis]

You have no data either, does that make your arguement invalid as well?

I personally don't have the data, but I have seen posts by CMs who do see the survey data that shows guest satisfaction results. Apparently, the characters have a positive impact in *most* places they have been added.

Is it any better now? If not what was the point of the change to begin with? Also, how does it fit this area of the park? If it were just goofy and classic characters dressed in period attire I would have less to say.

I don't know. Again, we don't have the data necessary to make anything more than a personal view. IMO, the revue was 'ok', but there's something very similar, yet much more profitable at WL. But in any event, is it worse now?

How does adding "Cars" enhance the ride to be appropriate for the area while in it's current form you say has nothing to do with the area? I agree it doesn't either way, move it to test track at epcot and put a tron ride there. There is a good example of a property with terific environements and characters perfect for a theme park attraction and increase interest in the property if executed properly.

You're correct... it has great potential. But why not "plus" the existing attraction and exploit that potential to help rejuvenate the speedway. Do you really think Test Track *needs* help right now?

I suppose my views are narrow from a certain point of view. I am choosing to focus on one aspect of which I disagree; what's wrong with that? I'm not contending the one's that make sense, I am contending those I don't feel make any sense at all IMO. Any way those characters would be used for Jungle Cruise would be disruptive unless you change the entire attraction. The Lion King charactoon characters have a completely different tone from the current state of the attraction. The Jungle Cruise is ment to be a fairly life like portrail of a jungle river safari and the addition of thses characters would spoil the tone and remove the rider from it's intended experience.

I gotta disagree wholeheartedly here. The Jungle Cruise is not meant to be "fairly life like portrayal" by no means... it's a parady with corny jokes all over the place and fits the Timon & Pumbaa humour. It could work, but again, I'm personally not sure it's needed. I just don't think the "doesn't fit" point-of-view holds.

Simply put, what do Timon and Pumba have to do with the Jungle Cruise? They don't fit. They fit in attractions, stores, restaurants, or areas specifically themed either to them or the Lion King. There are important and appropriate uses of characters, and this is not one of them. I don't contend the use of popular characters as long as they are used appropriatly and effectively. The seas with Nemo is a good example of one that is a fantastic idea and from the look and sound of it bound for success as I stated earlier.

Just because there is an attempt to bring guests through the door does not mean it isn't illfated. Disney has shown several instances of not knowing what they are doing. The quest for the all mighty dollar has caused a decline in guest satisfaction with the brand of themeparks. Disney is a buisness, and as such can be one of any run poorly. Now, I am NOT suggesting adding characters will send people packing, but what I'm saying is not every decision they make is a good one. You say they have to watch out for their bottom line. Will providing the consumer with a good product not do this? HKDL was built undersized and with few attractions to save money, but with not enough space and little to keep people coming back they have possibly lost more money than they would have spent making the park a higher quality product. Same with DCA, or beginning years of AK. Have they made all of the wrong choices, no, but they are certainly not without vast flaw. It's like if a store was trying to save money by not employing enough people to tend to their guests and lost those sales because of it. Sure, take advantage of the properties, but in a more productive and appropriate way.

They have made mistakes and that's going to happen in any endeavor. However, I believe any mistake was not made because they didn't care, but was caused by factors not within their control. Guest "faddish" reactions and budgetary constraints due to unforeseen issues or bad project management and far-reaching creativity are just a couple of issues.

I think a lot of people fail to realize we just don't have all the details of what goes on during the research, design and implementation. Neither do we see the financial restraints that are a necessary part of doing business. You make a lot of far-reaching statements about the finances, but in my experience, it's not always possible to spend the money that needs to be spent. Sure, you know if would make a difference, but you have to drop back and do the next best thing. It may not be the popular or even the easy choice, but it has to be made.

Oh, and thanks for the discussion, this is good stuff. I'd be nice if there was more friendly yet competitve discussion on these boards, but I haven't been here in a while so maybe the times are changing.

You're more than welcome. I'm enjoying it. :wave:

 

[wannab@dis]

That's one thing about wannab. If you are civil and you know what you are talking about, you can have a very friendly and worthwhile disagreement discussion with him. He may make you wanna pull your hair out of your head sometimes (), but he knows his stuff and is very firm in his beliefs.

Thanks for the kind words! :wave:

Jump right in and join the discussion.

 

[imagineer boy]

Very good post Crazy Harry! The same point with the Timon and Pumba in the Jungle Cruise that you brought up can be said the same about many other out of place attractions like The Laugh Floor Comedy Club.

 

[Crazy Harry]

I personally don't have the data, but I have seen posts by CMs who do see the survey data that shows guest satisfaction results. Apparently, the characters have a positive impact in *most* places they have been added.

That's a little too general for me . If you want to utilize that kind of info in the discussion you need to be a little more specific or it's not all that valid. Besides, are these surveys simular at all to the one's that claimed french people perfer films over rides and the Chinese perfer gardens :drevil: ? Disney seems inept at survey taking at times. And if you are talking the addition of character cast members (or specific meet n greets for them), then that's a little different than what we are discussing

I don't know. Again, we don't have the data necessary to make anything more than a personal view. IMO, the revue was 'ok', but there's something very similar, yet much more profitable at WL. But in any event, is it worse now?

I think we can agree on a stalemate here. Not one of the more pressing issues anyway.

You're correct... it has great potential. But why not "plus" the existing attraction and exploit that potential to help rejuvenate the speedway. Do you really think Test Track *needs* help right now?

I thought the speedway was still a viable attraction? Don't they have one at each resort? And test track needs no help of that nature, but Epcot does need more attractions geared toward children, even with the additon of Nemo. And something that close to test track which presumably packs em in might help with the long lines there, but it also might not make any difference to that aspect. I also think that tomorrowland needs a viable new eticket that actually fits the theme somewhat and tron would be perfect. If the ride is made effectively, people will ride if for no other reason than they are there anyway and curious, and once they are blown away by the attraction could rejuvenate interest and that brand of merchandise and possibly lead to a new pixar Tron movie which increase interest in the ride and other merchandise as well as provide new opportunites for increased revenue , of course I'm talking purely hypothetical. The cars idea is not a bad idea, just not in tomorrowland. What's the point of even specifically theming an area if you don't stick with the theme :hammer: ? Move it to the old 20k site then maybe you have something.

I gotta disagree wholeheartedly here. The Jungle Cruise is not meant to be "fairly life like portrayal" by no means... it's a parady with corny jokes all over the place and fits the Timon & Pumbaa humour. It could work, but again, I'm personally not sure it's needed. I just don't think the "doesn't fit" point-of-view holds.

I did say "fairly" life-like Yes it's corny, yes it's a parody of sorts, but the animals are about as life like as they come, as well as the surroundings.
And certainly none of the animals talk :zipit: . If it was a parody to such high degree they would not have gone through the trouble of making the surroundings and it's inhabitants so life-like. There are after all different degrees of parody. It's the same difference between the Scream movies and the Scary Movie... movies. If timon and pumba are allowed in I wanna see Dr. Phil harrassed by a croc, then it will be the appropriate form of parody

They have made mistakes and that's going to happen in any endeavor. However, I believe any mistake was not made because they didn't care, but was caused by factors not within their control. Guest "faddish" reactions and budgetary constraints due to unforeseen issues or bad project management and far-reaching creativity are just a couple of issues.

I think a lot of people fail to realize we just don't have all the details of what goes on during the research, design and implementation. Neither do we see the financial restraints that are a necessary part of doing business. You make a lot of far-reaching statements about the finances, but in my experience, it's not always possible to spend the money that needs to be spent. Sure, you know if would make a difference, but you have to drop back and do the next best thing. It may not be the popular or even the easy choice, but it has to be made.

I guess I'm from the point of view of if you can't do it right don't do it at all. What happened to you gotta spend money to make money? As in anything else, there is never only one right. If there are budget constraints, fine. Improvise, but not so you shoot yourself in the foot. Just one example, Ak. They spent alot of money on that park but struggled for years to increase it's popularity to a desireable level potentially losing much more revenue then it would have cost to innitially open a more complete park. Current management seems to want to get away "on the cheap" in order to make more money while spending less, but that hardly ever works. But there are always options to spend a simular amount of money and make a more effective product. A good deal was spent of landscaping with the entire domain of the park developed to have blanks filled in later with current attractions and lands spread all over the map. Why not instead innitially consolidate the space to make the lands and attractions closer together with everything at the front of the park and expand later when ready. A denser, smaller park could have afforded a few more attractions while sacrifising space and landscaping to make up the difference. I'm tired, so I don't know if that all makes any sense or not. Get me if it doesn't :fork:
And maybe they should let up on all the research, they might actually get more things right then. If you research and don't expect unexpected variables, then you are asking for trouble. And if they are restrained by finances that badly, they should wait until they have enough, or let up on the corporate bonuses :lookaroun Unfortunetly, they are Disney. They set the standards pretty high, so now everone expects that much out of them. Go figure.

You're more than welcome. I'm enjoying it. :wave:

 

[RSoxNo1]

I wouldn't mind seeing Timon and Pumba as tour guides...

...on living with the land. They don't even have to make too many jokes, but since we're switching to the voiceover's, I think Nathan Lane and Ernie Sabella would do wonders for that attraction moreso than any Mr. Moviefone voiceover would do. Timon and Pumba are already in the pavillion, in a similiar type role (not too comedic, but enough to bring in children) with the Circle of Life.

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

The thing that is convenient about the Speedway geographically is that it could potentially be folded into Fantasyland (just like the rest of Tomorrowland :brick.

 

[CoffeeJedi]

The Jungle Cruise humor does NOT fit with Timon and Pumbaa at all. The JC is a darkly comedic trip, with many of the jokes involving death (perhaps part of the reason why it still resonates today, its a universal source of humor). I LOVE the detailed 1930's theming in the queue (with all the site-gags that most people miss), and the radio announcer is PERFECT for the tone of the ride. And while noone would call the JC "realistic", its certainly not "cartoony". Things can be fantastical or comedic without being cartoony.

Pirates of the Caribbean, The Haunted Mansion, The Jungle Cruise (and perhaps even Alien Encounter?) all share a similiar look and feel. You could almost say that they're just set in different corners and time periods of the same shared "universe". I hope that they don't remove the Jungle Cruise from that world.

 

[Lewis Carroll]

Gentlemen and Ladies,

Their is no point in arguing about wether or not Timon and Pumba belong in Jungle Cruise because it is simply not happening. The Jungle Cruise is getting a revamp in the next few years but it will be more akin to the changes they recently made to the Disneyland version rather then adding cartoon charecters in.

Secondly, Jungle Cruise is being adapted into a major motion picture which I believe is slated for release in 2007. I believe it is WDI's intention to, should the movie prove to be a moderate sucess, add tie-ins to the movie into the attraction. This is probably why they pushed back the date of the Jungle Cruise refurb from 2007 to 2008. They will not put in lion king charecters for the same reason they won't put Captain hook into Pirates of the Caribbean.

 

[Senderella]

Gentlemen and Ladies,

Their is no point in arguing about wether or not Timon and Pumba belong in Jungle Cruise because it is simply not happening. The Jungle Cruise is getting a revamp in the next few years but it will be more akin to the changes they recently made to the Disneyland version rather then adding cartoon charecters in.

Secondly, Jungle Cruise is being adapted into a major motion picture which I believe is slated for release in 2007. I believe it is WDI's intention to, should the movie prove to be a moderate sucess, add tie-ins to the movie into the attraction. This is probably why they pushed back the date of the Jungle Cruise refurb from 2007 to 2008. They will not put in lion king charecters for the same reason they won't put Captain hook into Pirates of the Caribbean.

Good points... the thing that's struck me throughout this entire JC tangent is (and I've refrained from mentioning it for awhile now)... It's the JUN GLE cruise... Lion King is set in a SA VAN NAH... They're 2 entirely different types of settings.

 

[imagineer boy]

Gentlemen and Ladies,

Their is no point in arguing about wether or not Timon and Pumba belong in Jungle Cruise because it is simply not happening. The Jungle Cruise is getting a revamp in the next few years but it will be more akin to the changes they recently made to the Disneyland version rather then adding cartoon charecters in.

Secondly, Jungle Cruise is being adapted into a major motion picture which I believe is slated for release in 2007. I believe it is WDI's intention to, should the movie prove to be a moderate sucess, add tie-ins to the movie into the attraction. This is probably why they pushed back the date of the Jungle Cruise refurb from 2007 to 2008. They will not put in lion king charecters for the same reason they won't put Captain hook into Pirates of the Caribbean.

Good points, and I hope you're right ( about T@P not going in JC ). Another thing is that if the Lion King moves into the Jungle Cruise, then it would be WAY overkill. There's already FOTLK, and the movie in the land.

 

[tirian]

The thing that is convenient about the Speedway geographically is that it could potentially be folded into Fantasyland (just like the rest of Tomorrowland :brick.

Despite its recent influx of cartoon characters, I think that Tomorrowland '94 was a vast improvement over the Yesterland of 1990. The only way to prevent this area from becoming stale is to focus on science fiction. Corporate sponsors could keep the land fresh, too; but everyone would rather see that money go to Epcot's Future World.

Tomorrowland cannot be "folded into Fantasyland." It isn't covered in Bavarian-style houses or German cottages. It's a cold mass of steel warmed only by neons; and that's the way it needs to be. If we define Tomorrowland as "The Future that Never Was," which is how WDI looks at it, even the Laugh Floor Comedy Club will make sense, as long as it's presented as a portal to an alternate universe. That is definitely science fiction!



....


Timon and Pumbaa are not going to be incorporated into the Jungle Cruise. That's nothing more than an Internet myth.

 

[dxwwf3]

I think that Tomorrowland '94 was a vast improvement over the Yesterland of 1990.

:sohappy:

Even though it is a shell of its former self, Tomorrowland still is one of the best areas in WDW architecturally speaking.

 

[Crazy Harry]

Good points... the thing that's struck me throughout this entire JC tangent is (and I've refrained from mentioning it for awhile now)... It's the JUN GLE cruise... Lion King is set in a SA VAN NAH... They're 2 entirely different types of settings.

Funny, I thought timon and pumba lived in the JUN GLE on the outskirts of the SA VAN NAH. :hammer:

 

[FigmentJedi]

Thank you tirian for making that point about the whole Fantasyland East crap people keep throwing around about the current Tommorowland. Just because it has animated characters doesn't mean it's insta-Fantasyland. Fantasyland taking over Tommorowland would involve the whole European architecture actually creeping in rather then just simply getting the more Science-Fiction style Disney characters involved. Only way for Tommorowland to become even close to Fantasyland's architectural style is if they decided to make it into the 24th Century as seen in Futurama(considering that Robot Cop's use of 24th Century in place of Medieval and the old style castles that rise up while Fry is frozen, only to be destroyed by flying saucers)

 

[Scar Junior]

Ok... so if they had built a desert oasis and placed the spinner inside, you would be fine with it? Surely you would find "soaring over Agrabah" adventurous?

That's it. I tried to let it pass, but seriously I can't stand when every-other post is Wannabe correcting other's observations.

It's a good thing he doesn't ruin every thread by challenging people to "prove" their opinion or subjective views.... Even though it doesn't happen every thread, it's a shame he did it yet again with this one. It started out being fun.

Wannabe, You really are the ultimate authority when it comes to what works for Disney, huh? Remind me, what's your job again? Can you please just accept someone else's view of Disney World without critiquing it. Part of conversing is listening without speaking. Not everything needs to be a debate.

I don't mean to be rude, but enough is enough. I happen to appreciate the earlier comments for what they were. Thanks to all the others.

 

[Scar Junior]

I personally don't have the data, but I have seen posts by CMs who do see the survey data that shows guest satisfaction results. Apparently, the characters have a positive impact in *most* places they have been added.

Care to post a link to the thread(s) with this post?

 

[wannab@dis]

That's it. I tried to let it pass, but seriously I can't stand when every-other post is Wannabe correcting other's observations.

It's a good thing he doesn't ruin every thread by challenging people to "prove" their opinion or subjective views.... Even though it doesn't happen every thread, it's a shame he did it yet again with this one. It started out being fun.

Wannabe, You really are the ultimate authority when it comes to what works for Disney, huh? Remind me, what's your job again? Can you please just accept someone else's view of Disney World without critiquing it. Part of conversing is listening without speaking. Not everything needs to be a debate.

I don't mean to be rude, but enough is enough. I happen to appreciate the earlier comments for what they were. Thanks to all the others.

Take your own advice and don't critique my posts.... or at least don't speak in this discussion.

Why do YOU have a problem with my posts if the person I was discussing it with said it was a great discussion? Maybe the problem here is YOU.

If you have a problem with my posts, put me on ignore. Otherwise, stay out of it unless you can actually contribute to the thread.

Care to post a link to the thread(s) with this post?

I'm not going to take the time to dig it out, but there are posters here who see that information and have posted some of the high level generalizations. If you want to dig for it, let us know what you find. :wave:

 

[The Mom]

No more sniping and bickering, please. Fair warning.