HSR Coming to FLA, AKA "See I told you so"

[wm49rs]

If killing more people than any other U.S. mass transit system is your definition of working.

By taking so many drivers off the roads, mass transit has actually saved more lives than it's taken.....

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

But has it saved the Whales

 

[TalkingHead]

I would question the viability of the high speed rails in most areas.

What happens when you get to Tampa or Miami or even downtown Orlando without your car?

While it makes sense for Disney which already has a large public transportation system, the actual city centers don't seem dense enough to support this.

For example, I take the high speed rail from Tampa to Orlando, but would like to go to Hunter's Creek or Winter Garden. How in the world do I get there? Taxi? Bus? I would rather drive my car.

For High Speed rail to be embraced it has to be comparable in cost and convenience to a person's car. I just don't see how that can be accomplished with the sprawl that is central Florida.

Washington, DC is an awesome example of a metro that works.

This is my concern, too--that the HSR will turn out to be useful primarily for Disney, and that locals or people not travelling to Disney will find it to be inefficient. While this is all fine and good for the Mouse, I think it stinks that so much public money is going to be poured into it if it's not going to be a useful PUBLIC transportation system.

And DC's Metro is a great example of a useful, functional system---of course it helps that DC is a good pedestrian city. Central Florida, not so much.

 

[Phonedave]

European cities are more centralized in their design. It is much easier to take public transportation or walk. And cheaper. The cost of gas in Europe is 2-3 times more expensive than in the U.S. (no doubt because they can and do walk everywhere or take public transportation). The close proximity of cities in Europe also make train travelling quicker. Even in the US Eastern corridor it's easier to take the train. Example: even though it is only a 45 minute flight from New York to DC, you still have to go to the airport and arrive an hour before the flight...that's 3 hours minimum right there...the Amtrak can is 3-4 hours. So time-wise there isn't much of a savings of time. If it were high speed it would definitely be faster and more convenient.

The Acela *could* go faster, however the layout of the track prevents it. There are some curves that are too tight. HSR track has more exacting tolerance than 'normal' rail.

Even with it's limitation, I still prefer the train to the plane when travelling to DC.

-dave

 

[wm49rs]

But has it saved the Whales

Yes, but enough about the preponderance of SUVs on the American Highway....

 

[DisneyJoe]

This is my concern, too--that the HSR will turn out to be useful primarily for Disney, and that locals or people not travelling to Disney will find it to be inefficient. While this is all fine and good for the Mouse, I think it stinks that so much public money is going to be poured into it if it's not going to be a useful PUBLIC transportation system.

Those attending conventions in Orlando should benefit from the HSR too with the convention center as a main stop. With many hotels and restaurants immediately available, convention goers won't need to rent cars unless they plan on leaving the convention area --- ooh - and they could easily jump on the train for an evening at Disney after a day at the convention....

 

[GrumpyFan]

Those attending conventions in Orlando should benefit from the HSR too with the convention center as a main stop. With many hotels and restaurants immediately available, convention goers won't need to rent cars unless they plan on leaving the convention area --- ooh - and they could easily jump on the train for an evening at Disney after a day at the convention....

Indeed. Tourists and business people visiting Tampa and Orlando will be the ones who will use this the most and benefit from it. Of course, Disney could benefit from it quite well, but then again, it could shave a little of their business. Personally, we've driven to Tampa to visit Busch while staying at Disney, at least once, and have thought about doing it several other times, but didn't because of the drive/distance. With this new speedy transportation option, I could see us and many others, venturing outside of Disney for a day or more on the trip.

 

[MousDad]

By taking so many drivers off the roads, mass transit has actually saved more lives than it's taken.....

And DC's Metro is a great example of a useful, functional system---of course it helps that DC is a good pedestrian city. Central Florida, not so much.

Sorry about the OT, but as someone who rides the Death Train everyday, I have no qualms about saying that it is, in its current condition, a national embarassment.

 

[wm49rs]

Sorry about the OT, but as someone who rides the Death Train everyday, I have no qualms about saying that it is, in its current condition, a national embarassment.

Perhaps you're right. But I'd feel better about being on the Orange Line from Vienna to Federal Triangle every day that driving down I395 with one person texting, another putting on makeup and a third reading the newspaper, all while driving....

 

[MousDad]

Perhaps you're right. But I'd feel better about being on the Orange Line from Vienna to Federal Triangle every day that driving down I395 with one person texting, another putting on makeup and a third reading the newspaper, all while driving....

Point taken.

But to make this relate to the topic at hand, namely the comparisons that are being made between a potential HSR in Central Florida and a system like DC's, I would say that they are completely different animals.

High speed rail, by definition is designed to connect larger distances. So I don't by the argument that it shouldn't be built because it's not pedestrian friendly/accessible. It shouldn't be confused with light rail and subway transportation, for which the need of pedestrian access is more relevant.

If the theme parks were smart, they would already be drafting their plans for free transportation to and from the HSR stops.

 

[marni1971]

I`lll believe it when I see it. I really want to see it, but this has happened how many times over the past 2-3 decades?

Disney will take it if someone else pays. Disney will take it if it dosn`t stop at Uni. Uni will block it if they don`t have a stop. Uni will protest if Disney has a stop. Disney only offered a field for the station in the remotest part of property in protest. I-Drive attempted to block it, have several stations, then proposed their own competing sysetm. And so on.

I really want to see it. But until then I won`t believe it.

 

[TP2000]

I was thinking about this a lot last night. Why HSP in France and Japan. Both counties are small compared to the US and rail is the mode to travel the short distances between cities. The US is much bigger and air travel makes a lot more since because of speed of aircraft is much greater even than the fastest trains.

Bingo!

The bullet train from Anaheim to San Francisco is a relatively long route at 465 miles, but even then it's going to be cheaper and faster to fly using the California High Speed Rail Authority's own estimates.

Their website says it will be $58 to take that Anaheim-San Francisco trip by HSR in 3 hours. But I recently flew up from Orange County to San Francisco for the weekend and it took me 45 minutes and Virgin America charged me $39. I rode BART in from the airport to Union Square for $8, for a total of $47 cost to fly from Orange County to downtown San Francisco.

Tack on the 90 minutes early I arrived at the airport and the 30 minutes it took to go from SFO to Union Square, and by flying I'm still 20 minutes faster and 10 dollars cheaper than the HSR will be, even without adding in an extra 30 minutes I would give myself to arrive at the train station in Anaheim.

I'm a big fan of HSR just because I think it's fun and I've loved traveling on them in Japan, and I voted for the 10 Billion dollar California HSR bond measure in '08. But I'm also a fan of monorails, and I doubt we'll see monorails sprouting up everywhere.

The USA is not Japan and it's not France. The USA is big and sprawling and decentralized. It's usually faster and cheaper and more convenient to fly or drive between two big cities than it will be to take a fast train.

How many buses per day does Greyhound run between Tampa and Orlando each day? That should give you an idea of what kind of ridership numbers we'd be looking at, right?

 

[Wilt Dasney]

How many buses per day does Greyhound run between Tampa and Orlando each day? That should give you an idea of what kind of ridership numbers we'd be looking at, right?

Surely more people would be willing to take an express train traveling in excess of 120 mph and stopping at Disney World than would ride a bus that has to follow the speed limit, stops at every hole in the wall town en route, and (in my experience, anyway) offers pick-up and dropoff conveniently adjacent to all your drug and crime-related needs.

Seriously, bus service sucks in plenty of ways unrelated to the fact that it's on the ground instead of in the air.

 

[Phonedave]

How many buses per day does Greyhound run between Tampa and Orlando each day? That should give you an idea of what kind of ridership numbers we'd be looking at, right?

Bus service is a different sort of beast. When you take a long bus trip, you don't get on a bus a go for a long distance. Instead you take many many short bus trips. A Tampa to Orlando bus is also part of a Tampa to just about anywhere north of Tampa. I took a Greyhound from Newark NJ to Datona Beach FL once - once. I had a string of tickets as long as my arm. It was about 10 different short bus trips, each one involving a stop, wait, and transfer for the next leg.

-dave

 

[wm49rs]

Bus service is a different sort of beast. When you take a long bus trip, you don't get on a bus a go for a long distance. Instead you take many many short bus trips. A Tampa to Orlando bus is also part of a Tampa to just about anywhere north of Tampa. I took a Greyhound from Newark NJ to Datona Beach FL once - once. I had a string of tickets as long as my arm. It was about 10 different short bus trips, each one involving a stop, wait, and transfer for the next leg.

-dave

A good gauge to use would be the number of riders on any of the various "shuttles" that run back and forth between the two cities. There are a number of them that run up here between Atlanta and Chattanooga, as well as ones that run between D.C and a stop in West Virginia (not sure of the exact city). But those are regular commuters who may be more tempted to use the HSR service betwen Tampa and Orlando....

 

[fillerup]

I think this column from the Wash Post from last summer is worth a read. I'm not vouching for Samuelson's facts in this but the paragraphs on population density and per mile capital costs add some context to this discussion.

I'm ignoring the political aspects of this issue and focused on the economics. I guess I'm just a natural skeptic of the ability of the government to manage projects of this size anywhere near the the initial projected costs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/23/AR2009082302037.html

 

[Gatorboy]

1. Tampa does not have the commerce between Tampa & Orlando for it to be profitable. 2. You tourists wanting to go to Busch Gardens will be dumped off downtown. You'll need a car or bus ride from there. 3. The estimates are only around 8,200 people a day. Dought it. 4. Only close to profitable section would be MCO to I-Drive to Disney, which would probably be the majority of the 8,200 people. Floridians would be paying for the train to nowhere forever..... no thanks.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

I think this column from the Wash Post from last summer is worth a read. I'm not vouching for Samuelson's facts in this but the paragraphs on population density and per mile capital costs add some context to this discussion.

I'm ignoring the political aspects of this issue and focused on the economics. I guess I'm just a natural skeptic of the ability of the government to manage projects of this size anywhere near the the initial projected costs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/23/AR2009082302037.html

The bit about population density averaged for the whole country seems misleading to me. We're not talking about servicing North Dakota and Montana with HSR. These projects are connecting high population areas, just like the op-ed says needs to be done for the project to make sense.

A more legitimate concern IMO is the relatively economic nature of driving in this country as compared to Europe and Japan. We gripe about gas prices, but it's still very cheap to fill up in America as compared to other developed countries. Americans can afford to ignore public transportation if they want. In the UK and France, you can't afford not to find ways to avoid driving.

 

[wm49rs]

The bit about population density averaged for the whole country seems misleading to me. We're not talking about servicing North Dakota and Montana with HSR. These projects are connecting high population areas, just like the op-ed says needs to be done for the project to make sense.

A more legitimate concern IMO is the relatively economic nature of driving in this country as compared to Europe and Japan. We gripe about gas prices, but it's still very cheap to fill up in America as compared to other developed countries. Americans can afford to ignore public transportation if they want. In the UK and France, you can't afford not to find ways to avoid driving.

The only way to wean Americans from their cars would be to make the alternatives just as attractive, and to make the cost of driving more onerous. And I'm not sure either is going to happen in the near future....

 

[Texas84]

Samuelson nailed it. We're just too spread out. And dannychoo.com just had a story about the Japanese people migrating more towards cars over trains. I would love to see a real rail infrastructure but it is just not cost or time efficient. The focus should be on urban light rail because gridlock is just going to get worse. The London and Boston systems are awesome. Atlanta's MARTA is a logistical joke. And Atlanta needs efficient and well-planned light rail. Bad.