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HSR Coming to FLA, AKA "See I told you so"
- Thread starter jt04
- Start date
lebeau
Well-Known Member
Wilt Dasney
Well-Known Member
Personally, I'm glad to see California and Florida both getting a significant infusion of federal cash here. It looks like the administration takes this HSR thing seriously and is looking at the areas most in need (in terms of population and lack of serious public transit already in place). It's no secret that in terms of public transit, the high population centers in the South and California have lagged behind the Northeast megalopolis.
fillerup
Well-Known Member
The simple answer is no, no money has been set aside. It would have to be borrowed. The Florida constitution requires a balanced budget and it currently is not.
I don't know if this was a gambit or not, but for this project to go forward, the taxpayers of Florida have a very very big bill in front of them.
Within the last two months in fact, the legislature committed to Orlando's commuter rail - the Sun Rail system, to the tune of 1.2 Billion. In addition to the state funding 25% of construction, it has also committed to fund 100% of operational deficits for the first seven years.
IMHO, Sun Rail is a boondoggle in and of itself. It's going to run 61 miles between Deland and Poinciana, and won't come within a long cab ride of Disney.
And here in a metro area of over 1 Million people, the optimists are predicting initial ridership of 4,300 people per day.
Compare that, for instance, to the DC metro which hauls around 500,000 people per day.
JEANYLASER
Well-Known Member
me too! Awesome!
Phonedave
Well-Known Member
To put that in perspective. If I was going from my house to say. Freehold NJ, I would drive (and I do) thats about the same distance as Orlando to Tampa (which I have also driven, more than once
)My house to Washington DC is about 250 miles. Thats a horse of a different color.
-dave
Horizons1
Well-Known Member
I haven't read this whole thread and don't intend to. And I'm not aware of the original arguments that apparently ensued about the arrival of this rail, but the title of this thread just makes me cringe jt. I'm guessing you didn't have much proof this was going to happen, it's just something you really hoped for. So anyways, here's one just for you.
Anyways, awesome that we'll be getting a lightrail. Should be cool to see.
Anyways, awesome that we'll be getting a lightrail. Should be cool to see.
Wilt Dasney
Well-Known Member
...
TalkingHead
Well-Known Member
So who is expected to use this Tampa-Orlando rail? I understand vacationers flying into MCO can use it to go to Disney. And presumably some people might fly into Tampa and use the rail to get to Disney.
But if this isn't an affordable mode of transportation, are locals expected to use it on a daily basis?
If it's not an inexpensive mode of transportation, I'll be disappointed. I like public transportation--when it's efficient and affordable. The Metro in DC is a great example of a system that is both of those things.
Uncle Lupe
Well-Known Member
Is this going to be a High Speed Rail 120+ mph or like what has been proposed in Ohio a Highway speed rail 70-80 mph?:shrug:
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Big of you to admit that. :animwink:
Any Floridians out there care to comment on where they think the rest of the cash will come from? Reading the Sentinel, it looks like some folks want to use the 1.2 Billion to start working on it, knowing it will only get construction started, and then hope more money shows up from somewhere a few years from now so they can complete what they started.
Florida is going to need to cough up the cash here. I said this before, and I'll say it again, but the Federal Government is not going to be paying all the costs for a HSR system for Florida, or any other state for that matter. The state has to chip in big time too.
Californians coughed up 10 Billion for our HSR system by passing a bond measure in 2008. Florida's HSR needs an infusion of cash from Floridian's wallets like that, and then they need to fire the 8th grade kid who built their official HSR website and get a pro to do it. Maybe the firm who did California's HSR website is available?
Florida High Speed Rail
Tampa to Orlando
84 miles of track
168 mph top speed
2.6 Billion dollars
1.2 Billion currently funded
Projected annual ridership 3 Million
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/
California High Speed Rail
San Francisco to Anaheim trunk route, Sacramento spur line, San Diego/San Bernardino spur line
520 miles of track
220 mph top speed
42 Billion dollars
12.5 Billion currently funded
Projected annual ridership 41 Million
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/
.
Wilt Dasney
Well-Known Member
The Sentinel story I read today quoted VP Biden basically saying "We'll find some more money for you a little later." Is that the strategy? Get the feds to invest upfront, then keep going back to the well hoping they'll want to see the project along to the end?
It does appear (from the outside, anyway) that this is being handled with a bit of an "improv" approach on the funding side. Even if the Orlando-Tampa leg gets built, it wouldn't shock me if the Miami leg gets put off indefinitely barring more federal cash.
I hate to sound like Eeyore, but I just have no confidence that legislators from a (nominally) Southern state are going to be willing to divert billions more toward a project that people on this board are already deriding as a "money pit" — particularly in such a dismal economic and political climate.
Prove me wrong, Florida!
Light Rail is not the same as High Speed Rail....
toolsnspools
Well-Known Member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig
Nuff said...
Nuff said...
Pumbas Nakasak
Heading for the great escape.
DVCOwner
A Long Time DVC Member
I was thinking about this a lot last night. Why HSP in France and Japan. Both counties are small compared to the US and rail is the mode to travel the short distances between cities. The US is much bigger and air travel makes a lot more since because of speed of aircraft is much greater even than the fastest trains.
HSR can not be used as a commuter service because if you start adding stops need for local service you no longer have HSR but a very expensive replacement for light rail. I have studied many light rail system in the US and I can not find one that makes money. All are heavily subsidized with tax payer cash.
HSR can not be used as a commuter service because if you start adding stops need for local service you no longer have HSR but a very expensive replacement for light rail. I have studied many light rail system in the US and I can not find one that makes money. All are heavily subsidized with tax payer cash.
jakeman
Well-Known Member
I would question the viability of the high speed rails in most areas.
What happens when you get to Tampa or Miami or even downtown Orlando without your car?
While it makes sense for Disney which already has a large public transportation system, the actual city centers don't seem dense enough to support this.
For example, I take the high speed rail from Tampa to Orlando, but would like to go to Hunter's Creek or Winter Garden. How in the world do I get there? Taxi? Bus? I would rather drive my car.
For High Speed rail to be embraced it has to be comparable in cost and convenience to a person's car. I just don't see how that can be accomplished with the sprawl that is central Florida.
Washington, DC is an awesome example of a metro that works.
What happens when you get to Tampa or Miami or even downtown Orlando without your car?
While it makes sense for Disney which already has a large public transportation system, the actual city centers don't seem dense enough to support this.
For example, I take the high speed rail from Tampa to Orlando, but would like to go to Hunter's Creek or Winter Garden. How in the world do I get there? Taxi? Bus? I would rather drive my car.
For High Speed rail to be embraced it has to be comparable in cost and convenience to a person's car. I just don't see how that can be accomplished with the sprawl that is central Florida.
Washington, DC is an awesome example of a metro that works.
Big of you to admit that. :animwink:
Any Floridians out there care to comment on where they think the rest of the cash will come from? Reading the Sentinel, it looks like some folks want to use the 1.2 Billion to start working on it, knowing it will only get construction started, and then hope more money shows up from somewhere a few years from now so they can complete what they started.
Florida is going to need to cough up the cash here. I said this before, and I'll say it again, but the Federal Government is not going to be paying all the costs for a HSR system for Florida, or any other state for that matter. The state has to chip in big time too.
Californians coughed up 10 Billion for our HSR system by passing a bond measure in 2008. Florida's HSR needs an infusion of cash from Floridian's wallets like that, and then they need to fire the 8th grade kid who built their official HSR website and get a pro to do it. Maybe the firm who did California's HSR website is available?
Florida High Speed Rail
Tampa to Orlando
84 miles of track
168 mph top speed
2.6 Billion dollars
1.2 Billion currently funded
Projected annual ridership 3 Million
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/
California High Speed Rail
San Francisco to Anaheim trunk route, Sacramento spur line, San Diego/San Bernardino spur line
520 miles of track
220 mph top speed
42 Billion dollars
12.5 Billion currently funded
Projected annual ridership 41 Million
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/
.
This is what happened last time, if that helps any. So it's still possible it'll really get done this time ...or maybe not. :shrug:
http://www.siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf041108.htm
BTW, I'm aware that the article is very political, so would prefer that the political aspect not be discussed. However, it points out that there can be a change of heart once someone is presented with the actual bill.
MousDad
New Member
If killing more people than any other U.S. mass transit system is your definition of working.
European cities are more centralized in their design. It is much easier to take public transportation or walk. And cheaper. The cost of gas in Europe is 2-3 times more expensive than in the U.S. (no doubt because they can and do walk everywhere or take public transportation). The close proximity of cities in Europe also make train travelling quicker. Even in the US Eastern corridor it's easier to take the train. Example: even though it is only a 45 minute flight from New York to DC, you still have to go to the airport and arrive an hour before the flight...that's 3 hours minimum right there...the Amtrak can is 3-4 hours. So time-wise there isn't much of a savings of time. If it were high speed it would definitely be faster and more convenient.
I'm not seeing your point. I don't know of any public transportation system in this country that isn't heavily subsidized by tax payers. HSR would be no exception. But you have a point. If it stops in every small town along the way what is the point in it eing high speed? It would never get a chance to go fast.