HSR Coming to FLA, AKA "See I told you so"

[TP2000]

I was wondering the same thing about California's budget shortfall (more like a longfall) and where it will get the money to complete it's system since the money provided by the feds is far short of the deficit Florida faces for it's link. California is bangledesh poor.

Aside from being the world's 7th largest economy (ahead of Italy, just behind Brazil, but don't tell the UK that), California has had horrible budget problems in Sacramento for DECADES. The 1980's budget showdowns and state shutdowns were worse than now, I can tell you that.

The shmucks in Sacramento aside, California commerce and industry and the business of government continue. Rail building in particular continues in California today. In fact, the ongoing Expo Line light rail construction received continued funding through next year, and a 7 mile extension to Santa Monica has received full local and state funding for fiscal 2011-13 to complete the 20+ mile line from LA to Santa Monica even though it's 220 Million dollars over budget thus far. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/02/rail-line-to-santa-monica-wins-approval.html

That's just a relatively short light rail line, but it's a good example of how the business of running California continues despite the usual political paralysis up in Sacramento.

California voters approved a bond measure for 10 Billion dollars for HSR construction, and the bond money has been secured. The 2.5 Billion the Feds gave California last month is actually the first pot of "matching funds" to the local bond money, which is generally how those things go. Florida voters have yet to approve any bond money to make up the shortfall for their short Tampa-Orlando route. In effect, they got the federal matching funds first, as an arguably political move. The 12.5 Billion dollars California HSR now has access to won't build the entire 500 mile 42 Billion dollar California system obviously, but it's much farther along than the Florida funding source. Are Florida voters ready to pony up a couple Billion in bonds or taxes to get it started?

So, I put the question back into your court jt04, my good man. I take it by your initial response that not much progress has been made on getting Florida HSR going? Like most things that local cheeseball politicians in all 50 states tout as being "shovel ready", this Florida HSR system isn't quite ready to go, is it? I can't find a thing about it by a Google search since the initial announcement by Obama in Tampa, so I'm hoping some locals might have read or heard something in the last few weeks.

Maybe just a color scheme for the trainsets? A sketch of the big station planned for Tampa or Orlando? Anything?

 

[unkadug]

right. Which is a product of aforementioned political system.

5....4....3....2....1

 

[wm49rs]

Aside from being the world's 7th largest economy (ahead of Italy, just behind Brazil, but don't tell the UK that), California has had horrible budget problems in Sacramento for DECADES. The 1980's budget showdowns and state shutdowns were worse than now, I can tell you that.

The shmucks in Sacramento aside, California commerce and industry and the business of government continue. Rail building in particular continues in California today. In fact, the ongoing Expo Line light rail construction received continued funding through next year, and a 7 mile extension to Santa Monica has received full local and state funding for fiscal 2011-13 to complete the 20+ mile line from LA to Santa Monica even though it's 220 Million dollars over budget thus far. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/02/rail-line-to-santa-monica-wins-approval.html

That's just a relatively short light rail line, but it's a good example of how the business of running California continues despite the usual political paralysis up in Sacramento.

California voters approved a bond measure for 10 Billion dollars for HSR construction, and the bond money has been secured. The 2.5 Billion the Feds gave California last month is actually the first pot of "matching funds" to the local bond money, which is generally how those things go. Florida voters have yet to approve any bond money to make up the shortfall for their short Tampa-Orlando route. In effect, they got the federal matching funds first, as an arguably political move. The 12.5 Billion dollars California HSR now has access to won't build the entire 500 mile 42 Billion dollar California system obviously, but it's much farther along than the Florida funding source. Are Florida voters ready to pony up a couple Billion in bonds or taxes to get it started?

So, I put the question back into your court jt04, my good man. I take it by your initial response that not much progress has been made on getting Florida HSR going? Like most things that local cheeseball politicians in all 50 states tout as being "shovel ready", this Florida HSR system isn't quite ready to go, is it? I can't find a thing about it by a Google search since the initial announcement by Obama in Tampa, so I'm hoping some locals might have read or heard something in the last few weeks.

Maybe just a color scheme for the trainsets? A sketch of the big station planned for Tampa or Orlando? Anything?

Whatever you do, don't ask him about the project's contract having to be put out for bids. :drevil:

 

[Wilt Dasney]

5....4....3....2....1

I kept that post intentionally vague. I think the thread is safe for now. Hopefully. :lol:

 

[jt04]

Aside from being the world's 7th largest economy (ahead of Italy, just behind Brazil, but don't tell the UK that), California has had horrible budget problems in Sacramento for DECADES. The 1980's budget showdowns and state shutdowns were worse than now, I can tell you that.

The shmucks in Sacramento aside, California commerce and industry and the business of government continue. Rail building in particular continues in California today. In fact, the ongoing Expo Line light rail construction received continued funding through next year, and a 7 mile extension to Santa Monica has received full local and state funding for fiscal 2011-13 to complete the 20+ mile line from LA to Santa Monica even though it's 220 Million dollars over budget thus far. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/02/rail-line-to-santa-monica-wins-approval.html

That's just a relatively short light rail line, but it's a good example of how the business of running California continues despite the usual political paralysis up in Sacramento.

California voters approved a bond measure for 10 Billion dollars for HSR construction, and the bond money has been secured. The 2.5 Billion the Feds gave California last month is actually the first pot of "matching funds" to the local bond money, which is generally how those things go. Florida voters have yet to approve any bond money to make up the shortfall for their short Tampa-Orlando route. In effect, they got the federal matching funds first, as an arguably political move. The 12.5 Billion dollars California HSR now has access to won't build the entire 500 mile 42 Billion dollar California system obviously, but it's much farther along than the Florida funding source. Are Florida voters ready to pony up a couple Billion in bonds or taxes to get it started?

So, I put the question back into your court jt04, my good man. I take it by your initial response that not much progress has been made on getting Florida HSR going? Like most things that local cheeseball politicians in all 50 states tout as being "shovel ready", this Florida HSR system isn't quite ready to go, is it? I can't find a thing about it by a Google search since the initial announcement by Obama in Tampa, so I'm hoping some locals might have read or heard something in the last few weeks.

Maybe just a color scheme for the trainsets? A sketch of the big station planned for Tampa or Orlando? Anything?

Ummm, I'm not a local so I wouldn't know. I live in a double-wide just off old route 66 in the New Mexico desert. Sorry.

You are quite informative and I enjoy the information you provide. I was hoping the feds would pick one or two smaller projects that could be completed to determine if people in the states will use HSR before pouring countless dollars into it nationwide. MCO to Tampa was a perfect and affordable test market. Now, who knows?:veryconfu It appears HSR is just meant to be a never ending government funded jobs program essentially. Make no mistake, the way this is being done is purposefully meant to entangle and trap those who take the money. Florida would be wise to think twice at this point.


What a tangled web is being spun. :drevil:

It sickens me. But there is a ray of hope. If I can see what is happening, anyone can.......and they are.

 

[jt04]

I kept that post intentionally vague. I think the thread is safe for now. Hopefully. :lol:

Steve allows some politics as long as it is in context and not gratuitous simple headed msnbc-esque stupidity. He doesn't want to lose all his customers as they have done I guess :lol:

 

[WDW1974]

Steve allows some politics as long as it is in context and not gratuitous simple headed msnbc-esque stupidity. He doesn't want to lose all his customers as they have done I guess :lol:

True. He doesn't want to offend those who believe Sarah Palin is presidential material, I guess.

But seriously, no ... I was being serious ... but seriously, when FLA comes up with the rest of the money to actually build this thing ... and when the first earth is shoveled ... then I'll buy into the reality of it happening.

I think I'll be speeding through the desert en route from LA to Vegas many years before that happens.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

"Intentionally vague" only works when everybody plays the same game. :lookaroun

 

[jt04]

True. He doesn't want to offend those who believe Sarah Palin is presidential material, I guess.

But seriously, no ... I was being serious ... but seriously, when FLA comes up with the rest of the money to actually build this thing ... and when the first earth is shoveled ... then I'll buy into the reality of it happening.

I think I'll be speeding through the desert en route from LA to Vegas many years before that happens.

She's getting to ya! :lol: Don't worry, you aren't alone. I've seen this all before. 1976 comes to mind. And 1980 too.

Now if you will excuse me that dang ol' coyote is trying to get at my livestock again. Gotta run......

 

[lazyboy97o]

I was wondering the same thing about California's budget shortfall (more like a longfall) and where it will get the money to complete it's system since the money provided by the feds is far short of the deficit Florida faces for it's link. California is bangledesh poor.

California already passed a high speed rail bond measure. By law the funds generated from the sale of high speed rail bonds must be used for the high speed rail project. It does not matter how far into the red the state budget runs, that money can only be used for high speed rail. California is getting money by asking people for money that it is legally obliged to put towards high speed rail and only high speed rail.

 

[TP2000]

California already passed a high speed rail bond measure. By law the funds generated from the sale of high speed rail bonds must be used for the high speed rail project. It does not matter how far into the red the state budget runs, that money can only be used for high speed rail. California is getting money by asking people for money that it is legally obliged to put towards high speed rail and only high speed rail.

Thank you, that sums it up perfectly.

California is helped even more by having a current federal administration that seems to be doling out Billions in matching funds quite willingly.

 

[TP2000]

Ummm, I'm not a local so I wouldn't know. I live in a double-wide just off old route 66 in the New Mexico desert. Sorry.

You are quite informative and I enjoy the information you provide...:

Thank you. I have enjoyed our conversations here as well. We're just talking about theme parks after all, so it's supposed to be a bit of fun, even for folks who sometimes disagree about said theme parks.

The trailer in New Mexico sounds rather peaceful.

 

[Erika]

Just a quick reminder not to let this get into politics. Aside from being against forum rules we've all been here long enough to know that it always ends up in a bad place. Thanks.

 

[Mick G.]

Regarding the question of profitability, I recall reading an article about passenger service in the US during the "golden age" of railroading, roughly 1920-1945. The private railroads ran both freight and passenger trains in the pre-Amtrak days, and oddly enough, the accounting records covered the whole railroad. Nobody ever separated the passenger train information to determine if they were making or losing money on the service. And many of them didn't care... They considered passenger service to be a marketing cost, a way to impress potential freight customers. But the interesting part was, passenger service wasn't even profitable in the golden age of railroading. It was parially supported by freight revenue.

The point is, transportation is rarely a profitable business, in isolation from the rest of the economy. And my life is far too exciting...

Mick

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

 

[DVCOwner]

As for CA and the bond money. Bond money is not free, once the bonds are issued and work starts, taxes most go up or State spending go down in order to pay off the Bonds. Or can CA issue more bonds to pay off the existing bonds?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Regarding the question of profitability, I recall reading an article about passenger service in the US during the "golden age" of railroading, roughly 1920-1945. The private railroads ran both freight and passenger trains in the pre-Amtrak days, and oddly enough, the accounting records covered the whole railroad. Nobody ever separated the passenger train information to determine if they were making or losing money on the service. And many of them didn't care... They considered passenger service to be a marketing cost, a way to impress potential freight customers. But the interesting part was, passenger service wasn't even profitable in the golden age of railroading. It was parially supported by freight revenue.

The point is, transportation is rarely a profitable business, in isolation from the rest of the economy. And my life is far too exciting...

Mick

Railroads were required by law to provide passenger service on any line that offered freight service.

As for CA and the bond money. Bond money is not free, once the bonds are issued and work starts, taxes most go up or State spending go down in order to pay off the Bonds. Or can CA issue more bonds to pay off the existing bonds?

General revenue bonds could be issued, and those could be used to fund any part of the state budget, including high speed rail or its bond repayments. Either way, the money collected from the already authorized bond sales must go towards high speed rail.

 

[CDavid]

I was hoping the feds would pick one or two smaller projects that could be completed to determine if people in the states will use HSR before pouring countless dollars into it nationwide

While completely funding 2-3 projects to completion would indeed have been a better way to go about this, the (too many) projects selected were chosen largely (or solely) for political reasons. The developed Illinois (Midwest) regional rail proposals and the Virginia/North Carolina projects would have been excellent places to begin, with enough money available to largely complete both. Ohio did get funded, with a far more efficient and cost effective proposal than Florida or California.

However, how many times does passenger rail need to prove itself in this country before the (many) critics will accept the (overwhelming) evidence??? :brick:

 

[JEANYLASER]

What About DME? IS DME will do the same as for the High Speed Rail also!

 

[DisneyCane]

High speed rail does not make any sense for Orlando - Tampa. First of all, it's not that long of a trip by car which means that regular rail would be fast enough. What are you really going to save with high speed? 15 minutes?

Second, neither Orlando or Tampa have nearly good enough mass transit to eliminate the need for a vehicle at the destination. If I'm going to need to rent a car or take a cab when I get to the destination, why not just drive in the first place.

High speed rail is a good replacement for AIR TRAVEL on somewhat short distances where planes won't save much time over high speed train. I just checked on monday there are 2 flights from MCO to TPA on a 19 seat propeller plane. So billions will be spent to try and replace the air travel of less than 40 people?

If they are going to spend tax money on high speed rail then it should be done where it connects high density with a lot of air travel between them where both cities have efficient mass transit to use when the destination is reached.

If there isn't good mass transit at the destination then the high speed rail needs to save significant time over driving (which it won't on an Orlando-Tampa route). Maybe if a high speed rail can do Miami to Jacksonville in 2 hours, the 4 hour time savings each way would be worth renting a car at the destination if the fares were reasonable.