HSR Coming to FLA, AKA "See I told you so"

[wm49rs]

It is ridiculous to look at all the facts and money that will be a drain on Floridians forever and not say, WE DON'T NEED IT! By the way, just because money has been earmarked doesn't mean we have to build it. It still has a long way to go to find two thirds of the funding just to build it. I love trains too, but this is not a viable means of transportation for this corridor and I'd rather see something on the lines of PRT for moving tourists and locals than paying for a train between to areas.

Actually, because Florida submitted their rail proposals, and they were approved, those funds pretty much do have to be used for what they are earmarked for. It's a Federal transportation grant, not a Federal education grant.....

 

[jt04]

There's no way that short two-stop route could ever generate enough cash to pay the monthly payroll and the upkeep/maintenance costs on the HSR stations and trainsets. Even with a ticket price of $50, you'd never get your investment back, much less make a profit and prove a point. And your still dumping off WDW passengers miles from the Magic Kingdom and subjecting them to the latest rumors from the bus driver. It will always be cheaper and faster to take a cab from the Convention Center.

You are proposing buying and building a custom ordered 21st century high-speed rail system to go 20 miles and hope it pays off? That's about like building a Space Shuttle to drive a few housewives to the market twice a week and hoping their $1.50 Super Shopper fares pay for the shuttle and the launch pad so you can begin revenue service to the moon in the future. :lol:

If you want a little tourist train to go 15 miles from MCO to the Convention Center to Celebration, then build a cheap off-the-shelf light rail or trolley system. :wave:

Hip and funky Portland, Oregon and their excellent system of local neighborhood streetcars and citywide light rail trains. = $$$

But if you want a dedicated, custom-built high speed rail system to travel upwards of 150+ miles per hour over long distances, than that is something entirely different and requires far more expensive equipment, maintenance and yard facilities, custom built stations, dedicated right of way, expertly trained personnel, and a large payroll.


The proposed California High Speed Rail intermodal station at Anaheim, California = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

I'm not sure where to start here.

The Orlando to Tampa HSR is already on the drawing board. It is primarily designed to carry visitors from the Tampa and Orlando airports to WDW. I'm not saying they should build the MCO to WDW segment and quit. I'm saying that since this will always be the most used segment, they would be wise to complete it ASAP to at least offset some costs. Some revenue is better than zero revenue.

Now where the station will be located on Disney property is not that important. Very few people go from the airport to the MK. Right now the take the ME to their resort first. But the ME will no longer be an option once the train is running from the airport no matter how much wisful thinking happens on these boards. You will transfer from the train to a bus going to your resort at the station. I would bet your luggage will be transfered automatically.

I don't think you realize the shear number of people that fly into MCO and spend a week at WDW. Even if they don't have to buy a train ticket because it's included in the resort stay price, it will be a huge revenue stream for the state.

If HSR from MCO-WDW-Tampa can't at least break even then we are much better off sticking with cars.

By the way, if hydrogen cars are the future, why do we need HSR?:shrug:

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don't think you realize the shear number of people that fly into MCO and spend a week at WDW. Even if they don't have to buy a train ticket because it's included in the resort stay price, it will be a huge revenue stream for the state.

If HSR from MCO-WDW-Tampa can't at least break even then we are much better off sticking with cars.

Ticket sells will be revenue, not profit. Trying to break even is not going to happen either. The only remote chance of that happening is for the state of Florida to get every single lodger in the area to get on board with including tickets in the price of a room and not allowing people to opt out. Shooting for break even would drive up ticket prices to a point that makes rail no longer a desirable option.

 

[jt04]

Ticket sells will be revenue, not profit. Trying to break even is not going to happen either. The only remote chance of that happening is for the state of Florida to get every single lodger in the area to get on board with including tickets in the price of a room and not allowing people to opt out. Shooting for break even would drive up ticket prices to a point that makes rail no longer a desirable option.

Could you post the statistics you are drawing your conclusions from?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Could you post the statistics you are drawing your conclusions from?

I do not have access to all of the raw data, but this quote sys it well.

“High-speed rail is good for society and it’s good for the environment, but it’s not a profitable business,” said Mr. Barrón of the International Union of Railways. He reckons that only two routes in the world — between Tokyo and Osaka, and between Paris and Lyon, France — have broken even.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/30/business/energy-environment/30trains.html?_r=1&em

That is an educated guess from a man who is a part of the leadership of the IUC. You are trying to claim that Orlando-Tampa can do what an expert supposes has only been done in two locations.

 

[jt04]

I do not have access to all of the raw data, but this quote sys it well.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/30/business/energy-environment/30trains.html?_r=1&em

That is an educated guess from a man who is a part of the leadership of the IUC. You are trying to claim that Orlando-Tampa can do what an expert supposes has only been done in two locations.

So wouldn't we be much better off putting 100 billion dollars towards developing hydrogen/electric vehicle technology?

 

[CDavid]

So wouldn't we be much better off putting 100 billion dollars towards developing hydrogen/electric vehicle technology?

No. You literally cannot build enough highways (or lanes) to keep up with demand. Again, highways (and airlines) are subsidized also, just the subsidy is more often hidden, as opposed to passenger rail which generally gets a direct appropriation from the treasury.

Mr. Barrón of the International Union of Railways. He reckons that only two routes in the world — between Tokyo and Osaka, and between Paris and Lyon, France — have broken even

I've never seen any numbers or even an indication that any passenger railway in the world operates without a subsidy.

The Orlando to Tampa HSR is already on the drawing board. It is primarily designed to carry visitors from the Tampa and Orlando airports to WDW

If that's true, the designers of the Florida HSR proposal need to be given a book that explains what a train is, and the difference between a trolley car and an electric locomotive, and what the purpose is for light-rail, commuter rail, and high-speed rail.

 

[jt04]

No. You literally cannot build enough highways (or lanes) to keep up with demand. Again, highways (and airlines) are subsidized also, just the subsidy is more often hidden, as opposed to passenger rail which generally gets a direct appropriation from the treasury.




I've never seen any numbers or even an indication that any passenger railway in the world operates without a subsidy.



If that's true, the designers of the Florida HSR proposal need to be given a book that explains what a train is, and the difference between a trolley car and an electric locomotive, and what the purpose is for light-rail, commuter rail, and high-speed rail.

I'm not saying HSR would never be used in Florida. I'm just saying that if WDW was not located between Orlando and Tampa, I doubt there would be a push to link the two cities with HSR.

 

[lazyboy97o]

So wouldn't we be much better off putting 100 billion dollars towards developing hydrogen/electric vehicle technology?

The push for railroads over or in conjunction with roads far predates the push for "going green." Probably the biggest reason to implement rail is to ease traffic congestion. Clean cars do not address the issue of the millions of cars that clog up our roads.

 

[jt04]

The push for railroads over or in conjunction with roads far predates the push for "going green." Probably the biggest reason to implement rail is to ease traffic congestion. Clean cars do not address the issue of the millions of cars that clog up our roads.

Smart highway systems and GPS can fix that problem.

 

[Gatorboy]

Actually, because Florida submitted their rail proposals, and they were approved, those funds pretty much do have to be used for what they are earmarked for. It's a Federal transportation grant, not a Federal education grant.....

I was not saying they could or would use the funds for somethig else, I was stating I'd rather see my money spent in a system that would be more cost effective.

 

[wm49rs]

I was not saying they could or would use the funds for somethig else, I was stating I'd rather see my money spent in a system that would be more cost effective.

Well, the State if Florida is taking contracting bids for the work right now, so if you have a more efficient system or a better way to build it.....:lookaroun

 

[TP2000]

If HSR from MCO-WDW-Tampa can't at least break even then we are much better off sticking with cars.

By the way, if hydrogen cars are the future, why do we need HSR?:shrug:

There are only two HSR lines on the entire planet that have ever broken even, and only after a couple decades of building a market for the service;

Paris to Lyon
Tokyo to Osaka

And do you know what helps those two abnormal routes succeed, beside huge population centers relatively close to each other? Highway tolls between those two cities that run from $40 to $100 per trip, depending on your personal vehicle and time of day. No joke. Can you imagine getting Floridians to pay 40 bucks to drive I-4 to Tampa? I can't.

All other HSR lines in Europe and Asia still cost their host governments billions of Euros, Yen, or Won every year to maintain and keep running. Paris to Lyon and Tokyo to Osaka squeak just above the profit margin as the two exceptions to that rule.

If anyone thinks Orlando to Tampa HSR, or even Anaheim to San Francisco, is ever going to make a profit for their state governments and host organizations that run them, I would love for that person to speak up and explain to us why they think their local route will break the global rule of HSR needing constant massive subsidy to keep running.

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

As for hydrogen cars and what the exhibit floor of the Model Year 2025 Auto Show will look like, most folks in our government would like it if you didn't mention that. No one needs HSR. It's just a fun thing to pour billions into to make Americans feel like they are as cool as the Europeans and Japanese who have been pouring billions into HSR for decades. :lol:

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Could you post the statistics you are drawing your conclusions from?

Matbe like you he gets his information from the voices in his head.

 

[fillerup]

From O'Sentinel 2/8/10 - FWIW.


Magical Express sets bar high for high-speed rail




As the number of domestic passengers flowing through Orlando International Airport decreased nearly 7 percent last year, there was one segment of travelers that continued to grow.

The total number of people riding Disney's Magical Express, the door-to-door shuttle and baggage service between the airport and Walt Disney World hotels, increased 1 percent in 2009 from the year before, to 2.2 million, according to airport records.

As one Disney executive put it shortly after the resort began the program in 2005, it's about as close as you can come to "approximating a high-speed rail model" with a fleet of buses.

While the service was initially met with a blizzard of criticism over everything from how it would affect the airport's revenue to how many independent cab drivers would be put out of business, Magical Express turned out to be one of Disney's most brilliant innovations of the decade.

It's a privately-funded mass transit system that lets families say goodbye to their luggage at their home airport and — here's where the pixie dust comes in — reunites them inside their Disney hotel room.

Moms and dads don't have to think about renting a car and finding driving directions while lugging suitcases along with the stroller and, of course, the tots through the airport. And Disney gains a larger share of its visitors who are completely captive without a rental car or other means to spend money off resort property.

Even Jeffry Fuqua, chairman of the Greater Orlando Aviation Authority who was hugely skeptical of the program when it started, said that five years later he's now a fan.

"It's turned out to be a great thing for Disney and a good thing for the airport," Fuqua said.

For a glimpse at just how much impact the service has had on the airport, consider this: Magical Express transports, on average, about 6,000 people each day or about 7 percent of the airport's total 30.7 million domestic passengers last year.

Magical Express' share of total domestic airport traffic increased 1 percentage point in 2009 from just two years ago.

Allegiant Air, a small low-cost carrier, moved two of its flights from Orlando-Sanford International Airport to OIA just last week — and plans to move 10 flights by March — in large part so that it can participate in Magical Express.

"Disney in general is a big reason," said spokeswoman Tyri Squyres. "The infrastructure from a customer experience, our customers told us that is important."

So what will happen when high-speed rail begins?

Disney has been clear that Magical Express isn't going anywhere and has become an "expected" part of its guests' experience.

Florida Transportation Secretary Stephanie Kopelousos said the rail line is expected to generate enough ridership without picking up Magical Express riders.

But will it?

That remains to be seen. It's hard to imagine the estimated $2.6 billion rail system could replicate the service and volume that Disney has already fashioned for much cheaper on its own.



Beth Kassab can be reached at bkassab@orlandosentinel.com or 407-420-5448. Read her blog at OrlandoSentinel.com/thebottomline.

 

[TP2000]

Interesting article on Magical Express. About what I figured too. Good for Disney!

Would any local in Central Florida here care to fill us in or link to any updates on Florida HSR? Any news on where the extra 2 Billion dollars are coming from to build it? Any announcement on construction start dates? Exact routes through the metro areas? Maybe minor things like where the city stations will be and on what land they will be built on?

Maybe a sketch or two of such minor things like city stations, rail livery, the type of equipment and manufacturer used for the trainsets, maybe a logo or name for the system?

Anything? Bueller? Bueller?

 

[jt04]

Interesting article on Magical Express. About what I figured too. Good for Disney!

Would any local in Central Florida here care to fill us in or link to any updates on Florida HSR? Any news on where the extra 2 Billion dollars are coming from to build it? Any announcement on construction start dates? Exact routes through the metro areas? Maybe minor things like where the city stations will be and on what land they will be built on?

Maybe a sketch or two of such minor things like city stations, rail livery, the type of equipment and manufacturer used for the trainsets, maybe a logo or name for the system?

Anything? Bueller? Bueller?

I was wondering the same thing about California's budget shortfall (more like a longfall) and where it will get the money to complete it's system since the money provided by the feds is far short of the deficit Florida faces for it's link. California is bangledesh poor.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

California is bangledesh poor.

California is far from poor. If it were a country, it would rank among the world's most productive economies by itself. It's just been paralyzed by its own political system.

 

[jt04]

California is far from poor. If it were a country, it would rank among the world's most productive economies by itself. It's just been paralyzed by its own political system.

...and MASSIVE debt.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

...and MASSIVE debt.

Right. Which is a product of aforementioned political system.