Hoop Dee Doo Revue Change Confirmation

[menamechris]

You're definitely on the wrong site. A lot of people here would be very happy if nothing ever changed.

Huh? Are ya new here? Every week there are tons of threads dedicated to needing new parades, new fireworks shows, new rides and attractions. Frustration comes when Disney tries to recreate the wheel. When you have a good thing going - leave it be. Some things just don't need "plussing".

 

[Skyway]

This change has caused several reactions in me.

The first is nostalgia. The Hoop-Dee-Doo theme song truly brings back childhood memories. I first heard it as a 5 year old back in the late 70's. Unlike "Yo Ho", "It's a Small World", "Grin Grinning Ghosts", or any other Disney theme park song (which can be easily be heard multiple times on multiple trips, as well as on CD and other music formats) HDD really could only be heard attending the show. Since I've only seen the show 3 or 4 times, the song has a very unique specialness that other Disney theme park tunes lack. I had been looking forward to taking my own kids to see the show soon, knowing I'd be getting a rare peek into my own childhood memories again.

And that brings my second reaction: sadness. The loss of this song, as minor as it may seem to newer Disney management, means the death of one of the few remaining original WDW experiences. It's on par with the closure of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Mr. Toad, and the Swan Boats. Sure, only a fraction of WDW guests have experienced HDD than had experienced those other attractions, but its still the death of a piece of WDW history nonetheless.

And that brings me to my third reaction: surprise. I'm pleasantly surprised that HDD (the show and the song) has lasted as long as it has. It has far outlived those other attractions I mentioned above. It has outlived the MK's Diamond Horseshoe (and surely must now beat DL's Golden Horseshoe in terms of world records). Even among WDW dinner shows, it's brother "Top of the World" is long gone, and the "Polynesian Luau" barely resembles the original show. The fact that HDD has survived, unchanged, for 37 years is remarkable. Considering that it there is hardly any advertisement for the show, transportation/parking for off-site guests is ridiculously challenging, pricing is steep, and the theme is not exactly trendy, it is a sheer credit to the original show script that this relic of the early 1970's continues to pack 3 shows a night.

And that brings me to my fourth reaction: puzzlement. If the show has worked so well for so long, why permanently change it? (Heck, its in the title of the show! Even "Under New Management" kept the original Tiki Room song!) I admit I'm not well versed in the technicalities of the HDD copyright lawsuit. But when it comes to money, I imagine the biggest expense to Disney would reimbursing the copyright holder for 37 years of back payments (assuming Disney was at fault). I would imagine purchasing the rights for future use of the song would be a much less significant expense. (Of course, the song is only as valuable to the copyright holder as someone is willing to pay for it. They could have tried to gouge Disney unnecessarily by charging excessive fees for future use. Disney could have countered by eliminating the song entirely--which it appears they've done-- which means the copyright holder gets no future royalties. Maybe that is a strategy to bring the song back, by playing hardball to negotiate a fair price that makes the HDD show still financially feasible for Disney. But as one poster mentioned, this change is being treated as permanent). Still, I'm puzzled that Disney would be hesitant to spend money to keep this successful show going for another 37 years.

And that brings me to my final reaction: acceptance. I was very fortunate to have attended HDD as a child, and that song has dear memories for me personally. But as I acknowledged above, it has a fraction of the audience that other Disney attractions have seen, and some of those attractions have become extinct. A child, teen, or even an adult seeing HDD today has probably never heard the HDD theme song, and even if they did, they probably don't remember it. I acknowledge I'm in a very small minority. I also realize that live dinner shows like HDD have a relatively slim profit margin (compared to, say, a DVC that could theoretically be built on a bulldozed Pioneer Hall site). It would not make financial sense for Disney to pay an insane sum just to hold on to one song that most people probably won't miss anyway. And from what I hear, the rest of the show is exactly the same as it was when I saw it the first time in the late 70's. I'm sure my children will still love it (and in fact, they could turn out to be very nostalgic, sad, surprised, and puzzled when Disney restores the original HDD theme song 20 years from now, because it won't be the same one they remember as a kid!)

 

[Fractal514]

I hate to say it, but I think it's about time. The show has been the EXACT same for as long as I can remember. It's not funny after a few times.

I was sitting a couple weeks ago at a table at Teppan Edo with a CM who does the training for both the luau and Hoop Dee Doo. He informed me these changes would be coming.

No. The opening song was perfect. The rest of the show, and some of the other songs might have benefited from an update, but you wouldn't being Oklahoma with anything other than Oh, What a Beautiful Morning, you wouldn't start Fiddler with anything but Tradition. Sometimes a show just works, and the fact that it ran this long to full houses indicates that the show was fine.

 

[Atomicmickey]

I'm stuck in "puzzlement".

I know there was some sort of copyright dispute. Was there really no way to settle it? It would seem that pulling the song, they'd still have to pay the back royalties, so what's the deal?

I imagine it's one of those out of court settlements where no one can talk about it.

Again,



Our whole family sings that song, all the time.

 

[Kamikaze]

Huh? Are ya new here? Every week there are tons of threads dedicated to needing new parades, new fireworks shows, new rides and attractions. Frustration comes when Disney tries to recreate the wheel. When you have a good thing going - leave it be. Some things just don't need "plussing".

Yes, and when those new things came, you'd have another group of people complaining about those. People just like to complain. For instance, since you mentioned parades, there was an uproar about how much better SpectroMagic is than MSEP, even though Spectro had been running for quite a long stretch at that point. And I shudder to think what would happen if they ever completely replaced Illuminations. There probably would be a flood of biblical proportions of tears from those against change. For instance: Tons of bashing of the Nemo ride when the previous attraction had long closed. I bet most would choose to go back to no ride there, just so they can have their nostalgia.

Another example: The person I'm about to quote. They have a forum handle about an attraction that was one of the most disruptive in the history of the resort, and broke 'show' worse than any broken effect - but people still loved it.

And that brings my second reaction: sadness. The loss of this song, as minor as it may seem to newer Disney management, means the death of one of the few remaining original WDW experiences. It's on par with the closure of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Mr. Toad, and the Swan Boats. Sure, only a fraction of WDW guests have experienced HDD than had experienced those other attractions, but its still the death of a piece of WDW history nonetheless.

Just wanted to point out, that depending on math, etc, and how you estimate, the Hoop Dee Doo Revue has performed in front of - at the very least - 1,300,000 guests. (37 years, at 365 nights a year, 100 people a night = 1,350,500) I figure 100 guests is low on a per night average, but still, 1.3 million is ridiculous.

 

[menamechris]

I'm stuck in "puzzlement".

I know there was some sort of copyright dispute. Was there really no way to settle it? It would seem that pulling the song, they'd still have to pay the back royalties, so what's the deal?

I am in this position as well. You would think whoever the music publisher is who owns the song rights would be interested in royalties from it. Instead, they now have a song on catalog that will make them no money at all. I am sure there was room for negotiation - but I have a feeling Disney probably took an all or nothing approach, and refused to be bullied into having to pay for it.

I wrote an e-mail this morning to guest relations very simply saying the show is not the same without its signature song. Maybe if more people do the same - just maybe - Disney will be motivated to try to work out an agreement. My feeling is if they are willing to pay for licensing for songs for shows like "Move It, Shake It, Celebrate It" (which has a lot of non-Disney music), they should be able and willing to pay what little it should cost to get the Hoop Dee Doo Polka. I mean, seriously...how much can a 60 year old polka song demand?

 

[menamechris]

Yes, and when those new things came, you'd have another group of people complaining about those. People just like to complain. For instance, since you mentioned parades, there was an uproar about how much better SpectroMagic is than MSEP, even though MSEP had been running for quite a long stretch at that point. And I shudder to think what would happen if they ever completely replaced Illuminations. There probably would be a flood of biblical proportions of tears from those against change. For instance: Tons of bashing of the Nemo ride when the previous attraction had long closed. I bet most would choose to go back to no ride there, just so they can have their nostalgia.

I am pretty sure people are still entitled to their opinions. And when it comes to entertainment, there will always be differences of opinion. And I don't think it is out of line to criticize attractions that practically insult your intelligence (unless they truly are just for children). I find this to be more often the case. It's the habit of replacing a solid attraction (i.e., Alien Encounter, The Living Seas, and until recently the Tiki Room) with a "new" attraction that dumbs down the experience and attraction. In my opinion, that is grounds for criticism...

 

[Kamikaze]

I am pretty sure people are still entitled to their opinions. And when it comes to entertainment, there will always be differences of opinion. And I don't think it is out of line to criticize attractions that practically insult your intelligence (unless they truly are just for children). I find this to be more often the case. It's the habit of replacing a solid attraction (i.e., Alien Encounter, The Living Seas, and until recently the Tiki Room) with a "new" attraction that dumbs down the experience and attraction. In my opinion, that is grounds for criticism...

Common misconception - just because its your 'opinion' doesn't make it right. The Living Seas were hurting for attendance. Its been plussed, two attractions added, spruced up, and now pulls in much, much more in terms of attendance. But because it contains characters now, its somehow 'wrong'. Just ignore the characters. The rest of the pavilion is much as it was before the Nemo overlay. I often wonder if there would be such disdain for the changes if they had overlayed TLM into the pavilion instead of Nemo. As far as 'insulting your intelligence' ... did you really think that a 15 second Hydrolater ride was bringing you to a Seabase at the bottom of the ocean? Even when you could look up through the tanks and see sky? How is that any less insulting to your intelligence than the current setup?

 

[menamechris]

Common misconception - just because its your 'opinion' doesn't make it right. The Living Seas were hurting for attendance. Its been plussed, two attractions added, spruced up, and now pulls in much, much more in terms of attendance. But because it contains characters now, its somehow 'wrong'. Just ignore the characters. The rest of the pavilion is much as it was before the Nemo overlay. I often wonder if there would be such disdain for the changes if they had overlayed TLM into the pavilion instead of Nemo. As far as 'insulting your intelligence' ... did you really think that a 15 second Hydrolater ride was bringing you to a Seabase at the bottom of the ocean? Even when you could look up through the tanks and see sky? How is that any less insulting to your intelligence than the current setup?

Clearly when I state something as being "in my opinion" - it is with the assumption that others may disagree. In fact, I am prefacing that you may disagree.

In reference to whether anyone actually thought they were being brought to a Seabase in the bottom of the ocean - this is a non-point. Suspension of belief and reality is a part of any theme park ride or attraction. Dumbing down an experience is exactly what I said - catering to a 5 year old, not a broad audience. In my opinion, this is what The Living Seas has done. The revamped attraction and Crush may have raised attendance numbers by bringing a bunch of children in, but it really isn't intended for anyone who's old enough to drive a car. And I think this point can also be applied to Stitch at the Magic Kingdom...

 

[boufa]

I am glad I added my observations of this forum (and to be fair, most of the disney fan forums) in my signature.

We all hate, either we hate the change or we hate that it doesn't change.

As for my opinion, I refuse to look at any decision and use hind sight to criticize. They did not go "This is crap, lets see if we get away with it" when they changed the Tiki room. Even Davinci painted some ugly stuff.

That sadly cannot be said for everything. There are several things that Disney clearly "phoned it in" and made some poor choices that should have been obviously poor at the time they did them... stitch's escape for example.

Overall I go with the theory that Walt was building an theme park, not a museum and that it was his desire to keep plusing the experience and to keep it fresh. I'll accept weeding through the misses to find those magical things that hit a home run (like the new hitchhiking ghosts)

 

[Zummi Gummi]

I am glad I added my observations of this forum (and to be fair, most of the disney fan forums) in my signature.

We all hate, either we hate the change or we hate that it doesn't change.

As for my opinion, I refuse to look at any decision and use hind sight to criticize. They did not go "This is crap, lets see if we get away with it" when they changed the Tiki room. Even Davinci painted some ugly stuff.

That sadly cannot be said for everything. There are several things that Disney clearly "phoned it in" and made some poor choices that should have been obviously poor at the time they did them... stitch's escape for example.

Overall I go with the theory that Walt was building an theme park, not a museum and that it was his desire to keep plusing the experience and to keep it fresh. I'll accept weeding through the misses to find those magical things that hit a home run (like the new hitchhiking ghosts)

I think that's simply untrue.

You'll find that a lot of recent changes are widely praised- the Magic, the Memories, and You, Summer Nightastic, the Hitchhiking Ghosts, etc. When Disney does something right, as they often do, they deserve to be praised.

I will be the first person to say that the Magic, the Memories, and You is the most magical thing to happen to the parks in over a decade. I think it's brilliant. At the same time, I have no problem roundly criticizing something like Countdown to (no) Fun, because it's an unmitigated disaster.

I refuse to blindly accept any and all changes on the premise that we should just trust Disney. Blind faith (in anything) typically gets you nowhere.

As for criticizing in hindsight...since we're not making the decisions are ourselves, what other choice do we have? Internet forums exist (for everything...sports, politics, movies, etc.) so regular joes can Monday morning quarterback.

 

[erstwo]

I am in this position as well. You would think whoever the music publisher is who owns the song rights would be interested in royalties from it. Instead, they now have a song on catalog that will make them no money at all. I am sure there was room for negotiation - but I have a feeling Disney probably took an all or nothing approach, and refused to be bullied into having to pay for it.

I wrote an e-mail this morning to guest relations very simply saying the show is not the same without its signature song. Maybe if more people do the same - just maybe - Disney will be motivated to try to work out an agreement. My feeling is if they are willing to pay for licensing for songs for shows like "Move It, Shake It, Celebrate It" (which has a lot of non-Disney music), they should be able and willing to pay what little it should cost to get the Hoop Dee Doo Polka. I mean, seriously...how much can a 60 year old polka song demand?

Here's the story I heard - it's from a friend whose friend since childhood now works directly with the Hoop Dee Doo - take it for what it's worth.

Disney invited (and/or it was made known that) the author of the songs in question and/ or his family were going to WDW. Disney gave them the 5 star treatment, put them at the best table in the house, gave them a shout out in the show, etc. Essentially made a big deal about how great they were.

The next week the author and/or his family filed suit against Disney.

I guess that's what brought this all out now - some 40 years later. :shrug:

 

[Zummi Gummi]

menamechris brought up a really good point in an offline discussion we were having about this, and I think it bears repeating.

Disney has to be royalties to use all those party songs in Move it, Shake it, Celebrate it. All of those songs are much more well-known and popular than the Hoop Dee Doo Polka. Presumably then, the royalties for those songs would be much higher. How much money can this guy really be asking for? It can't be more than what they're paying for the Move it.. songs.

 

[Figment1986]

menamechris brought up a really good point in an offline discussion we were having about this, and I think it bears repeating.

Disney has to be royalties to use all those party songs in Move it, Shake it, Celebrate it. All of those songs are much more well-known and popular than the Hoop Dee Doo Polka. Presumably then, the royalties for those songs would be much higher. How much money can this guy really be asking for? It can't be more than what they're paying for the Move it.. songs.

one more thing to wonder, Doesn't the park pay an umbrella ASCAP and BMI fee that over royalties for music broadcast in the parks and resorts they don't personally own... :shrug:

 

[backinaction]

anyone have the video of the new songs? I'd like to reserve judgement until I actually hear what they replaced the old songs with.

 

[prberk]

I know that I just saw a show this month (at Busch Gardens Williamsburg, I believe) that used "Hoop De Do Polka". It was a pleasant surprise.

I would have thought that that was in the public domain. Sigh.

Paul

I remember where I heard it. It was performed (this month) near the beginning of the Octoberfest show inside Das Festhaus in the Germany section of Busch Gardens Williamsburg (formerly "The Old Country").

I wonder why they do not have a copyright issue?

Paul

 

[janoimagine]

Common misconception - just because its your 'opinion' doesn't make it right. The Living Seas were hurting for attendance. Its been plussed, two attractions added, spruced up, and now pulls in much, much more in terms of attendance. But because it contains characters now, its somehow 'wrong'. Just ignore the characters. The rest of the pavilion is much as it was before the Nemo overlay. I often wonder if there would be such disdain for the changes if they had overlayed TLM into the pavilion instead of Nemo. As far as 'insulting your intelligence' ... did you really think that a 15 second Hydrolater ride was bringing you to a Seabase at the bottom of the ocean? Even when you could look up through the tanks and see sky? How is that any less insulting to your intelligence than the current setup?

I dont think anybody is saying it is wrong, however if you have to dumb something down to get more attendance, that should say something rather alarming about our society as a whole. It was meant to inform, educate, and entertain in a creative way, that was the same thought process for all of the pavilions in Future World, however that was thrown out with the bath water long ago, the education that was so cleverly disguised with the earlier verions of the pavilions have all but become extinct. Did I really think that 15 second hydrolator was taking me to the bottom of the ocean? When I was younger, yes, I did, and I was learning and being entertained at the same time without the assistance of a cartoon charachter to keep my attention. (Now practically every tank and exhibit has a Clown Fish and a Regal Blue Tang). As I grew older, yes I figured it out ... but it didn't stop me from enjoying it and enjoying the expresions of the little ones who were riding it for the first time. If you want to ruin any illusion you can find a reason too, most of us choose not too when we are trying to enjoy ourselves.

 

[janoimagine]

menamechris brought up a really good point in an offline discussion we were having about this, and I think it bears repeating.

Disney has to be royalties to use all those party songs in Move it, Shake it, Celebrate it. All of those songs are much more well-known and popular than the Hoop Dee Doo Polka. Presumably then, the royalties for those songs would be much higher. How much money can this guy really be asking for? It can't be more than what they're paying for the Move it.. songs.

The biggest issue is that you have two parties who essentially wrote this song; one who wrote the music, the other who wrote the lyrics. One camp loves the fact Disney is using it, the other believes the he gave up all his rights to the song in the late 70's and therefore cannot authorize Disney to use it. (Confused yet?) The second party has filed a cease and decist with Disney.

However the if you compare the original to the 'Disney' version, Disney's should be considered a parody of the original and subject to the rules of a parody ... or at least one would think so, making the lawsuit irrelevant.
:shrug:

 

[menamechris]

However the if you compare the original to the 'Disney' version, Disney's should be considered a parody of the original and subject to the rules of a parody ... or at least one would think so, making the lawsuit irrelevant.
:shrug:

Going along these lines, I would also think that a lawsuit would be thrown out. Especially considering that Disney could probably keep it tied up in courts for years until the other side just gave up or couldn't justify defending it anymore. My fear is that some committee at Disney decided it wasn't worth defending and spending the money to defend - and figured guests wouldn't notice. THAT I think is wrong to do with a 37 year old show that is now a part of Disney and resort history.

 

[coachwnh]

just did this show for the third straight summer and will still go again. i like those same corny jokes. sad if the changes are significant, but i'll wait until i see it to pass judgement.