Grading Walt Disney World Throughout the Decades

[eliza61nyc]

^What I don't understand is the complaining about the "complainers" in this particular thread.

If this were a trip planning forum or thead entitled "Just Got Back and Had a Blast!", where a bunch of people were getting hyped about upcoming and recent WDW trips, then I could understand and even agree with getting annoyed with the wet blanket sentiments.

But why in the world would you want to stifle discussion about the state of the parks past & present in the general discussion forum on a thread dedicated to one person's reasoned analysis? If you disagree with the assessments, make your case.

***

The "If you don't like, quit going!!" is the equivalent of the "If you don't like Policy/Politician X, Y, Z, then shut up and move to Canada!"

If the medium of theme parks is your entertainment/leisure activity of choice, WDW can (and does, IMO) exist at a level significantly below one's perceived baseline or peak value/quality AND still be the most attractive option on the market.

Lol talking about major strawman argument, unless of course you make major life decisiin based on fantasy? But then again...

If WDW is the premiere theme park in the category than the natural conclusions is that the perception is based on faulty data. You can't in one breathe say something is the "best " and then say it sucks at the same time?

Im actually not trying to stiffle anything, as you said this is a "discussion" forum. I am presenting an opposing view. Im actually trying to get an answer to a very basic question. If WDW has so slipped on quality and value, why is one still spending 1000's of dollars going and if you (general use of you )fully "expect" this perceived lack of quality, why are you then surprised when that is what you (again general not you specifically) get.

Which no one seems to be able to answer, not that I am owed an answer

But I will do as you ask and skedaddle as to not "stiffle" the discussion.... Disney is lousy, carry on.

 

[mergatroid]

Question. I hear/read a lot on this forums "Walt wanted this" or " would do so and so". Are you guys former employees?

It's something that some people throw out there from time to time without really knowing what Walt would have said or thought. For instance there was 'outrage' over Starbucks getting signs within the parks and 'ruining the theming' with somebody claiming that Walt would never have allowed it ...................................

 

[Willmark]

I’m amused that some think this is a binary proposition, then again... America!

It’s entirely possible to enjoy a trip to Disney and not be happy with the cost/benefit ratio. It’s not mutually exclusive.

 

[ParentsOf4]

It's something that some people throw out there from time to time without really knowing what Walt would have said or thought.

In some instances, what you write is true. Some project their own views on Walt Disney, truly believing Walt must have felt what they feel.

However, there also are a number of well informed posters on these threads who have taken the time to read all of Walt's biographies, published interviews, articles from respected journalists, and annual reports. From these multiple sources, they've been able to glean Walt Disney's views on a number of topics, including his opinions of how his theme parks should be operated.

Some posters have been fortunate enough to have met with Disney leadership, and to have heard directly from them how Walt and Roy Disney influenced the way they ran WDW in the 1970s and 1980s.

Remember, Donn Tatum (Disney CEO 1971-1976) died in 1993, Card Walker (1976-1983) died in 2005, and Ron Miller (1983-1984) is still alive. They all knew Walt Disney personally and were not adverse to discussing how Walt influenced the way they ran the business in the 1970s and 1980s.

 

[eliza61nyc]

In some instances, what you write is true. Some project their own views on Walt Disney, truly believing Walt must have felt what they feel.

However, there also are a number of well informed posters on these threads who have taken the time to read all of Walt's biographies, published interviews, articles from respected journalists, and annual reports. From these multiple sources, they've been able to glean Walt Disney's views on a number of topics, including his opinions of how his theme parks should be operated.

Some posters have been fortunate enough to have met with Disney leadership, and to have heard directly from them how Walt and Roy Disney influenced the way they ran WDW in the 1970s and 1980s.

Remember, Donn Tatum (Disney CEO 1971-1976) died in 1993, Card Walker (1976-1983) died in 2005, and Ron Miller (1983-1984) is still alive. They all knew Walt Disney personally and were not adverse to discussing their thoughts on how Walt influenced the way they ran the business in the 1970s and 1980s.

very true but I wonder if some of the extrapolations don't take into account the totally changing world and business environment. I find it difficult to believe that any competant successful business guy would try to run a 2018 corportation in a 1970's fashion.

Now some qualities like great customer service of course are timeless yet others are not. I also totally admit that I work in Science and technology. in my daily life things change faster than folks change their underwear so I really have a hard time why folks understanding why folks are freakin out over a change in ride or the closure of a ride that is outdated and boring all for "nostalgia". nostalgia in my business means death and slapping the word "classic" on a thing does not make it good IMO, it just makes it old. lol so that's a personal preferance.

Also I wonder if Disney were alive would he have even allowed it to be a public company because if he did, he would still face the same issues, having shareholders that want growth and return on their investments would still have an influence.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I'm not going to wade into the current argument but I'll just chime in that cast members, in particular, have been absolutely fantastic in my experience the last few years. Maybe I'm more of a candidate for "magical" treatment now that I have two daughters, but the level of above-and-beyond kindness we've gotten from the CMs has been off the charts. The CPs seem to be better trained and just have overall better attitudes than I remember from the early 2000s.

 

[ParentsOf4]

very true but I wonder if some of the extrapolations don't take into account the totally changing world and business environment. I find it difficult to believe that any competant successful business guy would try to run a 2018 corportation in a 1970's fashion.

Now some qualities like great customer service of course are timeless yet others are not,

Remember, Walt Disney Productions (as it was known until 1986) was an anomaly in the business world. Business school case studies were written about it.

During the 1980s, companies tried to emulate "The Disney Difference" which, in many ways, fit into the Japanese business model that focused on quality and was kicking America's behind in the 1980s. (For example, Japanese cars and electronics were viewed as high quality products in the 1980s; American products often were viewed as inferior.)

The 1980s focused on customer value.

Today, the focus is on shareholder value.

Disney's current leadership is focused on providing their shareholders with value, not their customers.

 

[copcarguyp71]

Considering my visits were 1977, 1988, 1996, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012 and 2013 I have to say that the chart pretty well mirrors my feelings.

For me '96 was the pinnacle of experiences (I was 25 that year) but that may simply be because of my immaturity in 1988 not being able to appreciate and weigh value for the dollar. 2006 was another high point for us but 2012 and 2013 were definitely low points and we've not been back since.

1996 allowed for decent dining, top notch show quality, excellent park condition, reasonable crowd levels and the ability to freestyle the parks without hours spent in queues or incessant pre-planning of rides and dining months prior to departure in order to get the "best experience". I have said in the past that I can accept that it is possible that I am just unwilling to acclimate to the "brave new world" that Disney is creating and that my nostalgia and memories are keeping me from having an open mind. Maybe I am the problem...maybe Disney is or maybe a little of both.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Remember, Walt Disney Productions (as it was known until 1986) was an anomaly in the business world. Business school case studies were written about it.

During the 1980s, companies tried to emulate "The Disney Difference" which, in many ways, fit into the Japanese business model that focused on quality and, at the time, was kicking America's behind in the 1980s. (For example, Japanese cars and electronics were viewed as high quality products in the 1980s; American products often were viewed as inferior.)

The 1980s focused on customer value.

Today, the focus is on shareholder value.

Disney's current leadership is focused on providing their shareholders with value, not their customers.

lol don't get me started on that topic.

Unfortunately that is an all too current trend. absolutely doesn't surprise me. Like I said I work and science and tech. my company use to have the emphasis on developing the next great thing to mankind. Now we laugh at how we do science by stockholder. very hard to develp new technology when your shareholders want you to do it in 6 months so they can announce the results

Was WD Productions a public company back then?? that's why I wonder if Disney were alive and did not keep controlling interest in his company would he still be facing the same issues. stockholders are demanding beast and now imo they have really unrealistic goals. everyone seems to want double digit growth every year.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Remember, Walt Disney Productions (as it was known until 1986) was an anomaly in the business world. Business school case studies were written about it.

That's not necessarily a good thing. There will also be business school case studies about MyDisneyExperience and FastPass+.

(I personally like both of those things, but I know I'm in the minority.)

 

[ParentsOf4]

I'm not going to wade into the current argument but I'll just chime in that cast members, in particular, have been absolutely fantastic in my experience the last few years. Maybe I'm more of a candidate for "magical" treatment now that I have two daughters, but the level of above-and-beyond kindness we've gotten from the CMs has been off the charts. The CPs seem to be better trained and just have overall better attitudes than I remember from the early 2000s.

Right. It felt as if there were a period centered around 2010 where WDW hit bottom in terms of quality.

Quality has improved over the last 5 years but price increases also have accelerated. In terms of 'value' (i.e. what you get for your money), the current WDW is only a tad above where it was when I scored it the lowest in 2011.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Right. It felt as if there were a period centered around 2010 where WDW hit bottom in terms of quality.

Quality has improved over the last 5 years but price increases also have accelerated. In terms of 'value' (i.e. what you get for your money), the current WDW is only a tad above where it was when I scored it the lowest in 2011.

I also wonder if there are differences also in looking at the scoring. for me I look at the value vs. what's out their also in vacation land as opposed to value vs a time in the past.

So for me the value is still extremely good because rising prices have also increased every where else. Now even that can be a bit difficult because not all destinations hold the same appeal.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I also wonder if there are differences also in looking at the scoring. for me I look at the value vs. what's out their also in vacation land as opposed to value vs a time in the past.

So for me the value is still extremely good because rising prices have also increased every where else. Now even that can be a bit difficult because not all destinations hold the same appeal.

Sure. When I started this thread, I debated how to grade WDW. As I wrote in my first post, I ultimately decided to score WDW against itself, assuming a value of '100' for WDW's years of peak value, and then grading other years downward from there.

It meant that I had to first look at the entire history of WDW to identify its best years before I could score any years.

Thus, 1982 (from the opening of EPCOT when Disney implemented an all-inclusive ticket) until 1984 (when Eisner started his 4 years of double-digit price increases) represented WDW at its zenith.

As I previously noted, my score includes three factors:

1. Price
2. Content
3. Quality

Some years score better than others using any one of these three factors. However, when combined together, 1982-1984 scores the best.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I also wonder if there are differences also in looking at the scoring. for me I look at the value vs. what's out their also in vacation land as opposed to value vs a time in the past.

So for me the value is still extremely good because rising prices have also increased every where else. Now even that can be a bit difficult because not all destinations hold the same appeal.

Yup. The "attractions pass" in New Hampshire's White Mountains is about $400, or right in line with what you'd pay for a five day WDW ticket. When I price out the difference between a WDW vacation and a drivable vacation, the main difference between the two is the cost of airfare, which has nothing to do with WDW.

 

[Willmark]

Another axis to this is really time when you think about it.

Cost is fixed and inflation as a variable.

Value is completely subjective.

Time isn’t really subjective as there is only so much of it and we all get the same amount. I don’t know about you guys but waiting in line is not my ideal way to spend it. Some waiting? Sure. Hours? No way.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Another axis to this is really time when you think about it.

Cost is fixed and inflation as a variable.

Value is completely subjective.

Time isn’t really subjective as there is only so much of it and we all get the same amount. I don’t know about you guys but waiting in line is not my ideal way to spend it. Some waiting? Sure. Hours? No way.

Lol. That's never a factor in my life because if I stand in line for 3 hours Denzel Washington better be at the end of it ready to do some things that wouldn't be considered family friendly. but that's everywhere. I didn't do that in Paris at the Effiel Tower where the lines are insane.

 

[wdisney9000]

Im actually trying to get an answer to a very basic question. If WDW has so slipped on quality and value, why is one still spending 1000's of dollars going and if you (general use of you )fully "expect" this perceived lack of quality, why are you then surprised when that is what you (again general not you specifically) get.

I (and others) have said before that it is the same mentality as supporting a sports team. You can be critical and still have a lot of passion. I get extremely frustrated with the bone headed decisions my favorite team makes from off season acquisitions to play calling during the game and I yell at the tv. But there have been so many great moments as well. I have a history with my team and it has been a part of my life since I was young and went to the stadium with my dad. The last few seasons have been a let down but i still support them regardless of how frustrated I get because I know that current coaches/players that I do not like will not be there forever and hopefully the next crew will do better.

Id argue that the people who criticize (current) Disney have much more passion than those who accept any and everything they do and write it off with claims of "its a business" or "times are changing" or the classic "your just being nostalgic and hate change". I definitely fall on the "doom and gloom" side and I have no problem with change but the changes should be somewhat on par with the bar the company set decades ago with emphasis on overall experience and quality, not IP synergy and cost cutting.

My family has been AP holders since the late 80s and we visit several times each year (sometimes 4-5 times per year). I saw real change with major expansion over all those years. Say what you will about Eisner but the man was all about expansion and stain ahead. He hated to loose and he made sure Disney stayed ahead of the game. When someone who has only been visiting once or twice a year since 2008 tells me that "you're just being pessimistic" when I say NFL is a dud, I have to laugh because "back in the day" Disney built entire theme parks in less time than it took to simply expand Fantasyland with a cloned attraction and a kiddie coaster.

The "doom and gloomers" are the hardcore fans that CAN ADMIT when their team plays like crap, BUT STILL support them. The"pixie dusters" are the fans who make excuses when their team looses and blame it on the referees.

 

[eliza61nyc]

I (and others) have said before that it is the same mentality as supporting a sports team. You can be critical and still have a lot of passion. I get extremely frustrated with the bone headed decisions my favorite team makes from off season acquisitions to play calling during the game and I yell at the tv. But there have been so many great moments as well. I have a history with my team and it has been a part of my life since I was young and went to the stadium with my dad. The last few seasons have been a let down but i still support them regardless of how frustrated I get because I know that current coaches/players that I do not like will not be there forever and hopefully the next crew will do better.

Id argue that the people who criticize (current) Disney have much more passion than those who accept any and everything they do and write it off with claims of "its a business" or "times are changing" or the classic "your just being nostalgic and hate change". I definitely fall on the "doom and gloom" side and I have no problem with change but the changes should be somewhat on par with the bar the company set decades ago with emphasis on overall experience and quality, not IP synergy and cost cutting.

My family has been AP holders since the late 80s and we visit several times each year (sometimes 4-5 times per year). I saw real change with major expansion over all those years. Say what you will about Eisner but the man was all about expansion and stain ahead. He hated to loose and he made sure Disney stayed ahead of the game. When someone who has only been visiting once or twice a year since 2008 tells me that "you're just being pessimistic" when I say NFL is a dud, I have to laugh because "back in the day" Disney built entire theme parks in less time than it took to simply expand Fantasyland with a cloned attraction and a kiddie coaster.

The "doom and gloomers" are the hardcore fans that CAN ADMIT when their team plays like crap, BUT STILL support them. The"pixie dusters" are the fans who make excuses when their team looses and blame it on the referees.

Oh i totally admit thats a foreign concept to me. I work waaay to hard for my money to waste it. My son went to the Univ of Ohio, left home and proceeded to act like an idiot. Giess what I yanked his silly self home and he's now in Temple. Sorry no I expect value on my money and I love my kid waay more than the mouseworld. I admire your devotion to a place, I will never have it especially since that passion sets you up for further frustration. In my world that is not the definition of a vacation. My late husband and I loved Jamaica until the quality went down and the request for tips got out of control. That was the end of Jamaica and I was married there!! Lol

But then I haven't spent a dine on the Eagles in 20 years either. No value in it.

I do feel about sad for die hards though, Disney isn t going ti change its model in the forseeable future, why should it? the passionate alumni will contine to folk over thousands of bucks on what they see as an inferior product

Wishing you best of luck

 

[ParentsOf4]

Oh i totally admit thats a foreign concept to me. I work waaay to hard for my money to waste it. My son went to the Univ of Ohio, left home and proceeded to act like an idiot. Giess what I yanked his silly self home and he's now in Temple. Sorry no I expect value on my money and I love my kid waay more than the mouseworld. I admire your devotion to a place, I will never have it especially since that passion sets you up for further frustration. In my world that is not the definition of a vacation.

But then I haven't spent a dine on the Eagles in 20 years either. No value in it.

I do feel about sad for you die hards though, Disney isn t going ti change its model in the forseeable future and the passionate alumni will contine to folk over thousands of bucks on what they see as an inferior product

You're assuming die-hard fans find WDW an "inferior product" compared to other products. This entirely misses the point of this thread.

As I described in my first post to start this thread, WDW is being graded against itself, using WDW's best years as the Gold Standard.

In sports parlance, it's like grading the current New York Yankees against the 1927 Yankees or the great teams who won a lot of World Series in the 1950s. It's possible to recognize that the Yankees used to be better while still acknowledging they are a good team.

As some have noted, you'd be foolish to visit WDW if you give it a poor grade today.

Most who are writing on this thread are not saying, "WDW sucks but I still go anyway". Instead, they are writing, "WDW used to be better."

 

[ParentsOf4]

There's another point to add to this discussion...

If a customer is paying a premium price for a product (and WDW is the most expensive theme park on the planet), then that customer has a right to complain if that product does not fully meet expectations.

A smart business listens to complaints and makes the appropriate adjustments so that current customers don't become former customers.

In the 1970s, a lot of American companies were guilty of ignoring what the customer said. Those companies paid the price for it.

Disney genuinely listens to customer complaints, watches for trends, and adjusts where it makes sense. One person complaining will not cause change. Many will. Recently, there have been changes at WDW to correct problems that online communities complained about a few years before. If enough complain, Disney will listen.

Those who defend Disney yet recognize there are things that Disney could do better are doing themselves a disservice.