NelsonRD
Well-Known Member
I hope you don't mind, but I updated your chart.
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Grading Walt Disney World Throughout the Decades
- Thread starter ParentsOf4
- Start date
I hope you don't mind, but I updated your chart.
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
It’s Eisner and iger...they both let the Place rot/closed things
wendysue
Well-Known Member
That is exactly what we did. I sent an email with a list of reasons we wanted a refund for our AP's and they cheerfully obliged. Moving on
eliza61nyc
Well-Known Member
I'm actually glad to hear that Wendy and not like the "good, less people there for me" but because I am baffled how many here say they are genuinely not having a good time (or at least that's how im reading it) and yet still going.
I also wonder if we gave any other vacation an "F" would we go back??
I know I would not.
I grew up in my family's restaurant if we had customers that constantly complained about every thing yet stii kept coming, lol we wouldn't make changes either.
As I said before I'm a dvc member, the first timeI give Disney an "F" grade that suckers for sale. Waaay to many places to waste valuable vacation time.
kong1802
Well-Known Member
I give it an A up until FP+. Then its hovering around C-.
Perhaps its due to this being our first year having AP's in about 5 years, but we have really noticed FP+'s impact on our enjoyment.
We don't plan more than 30 days in advance. We stay mostly offsite, however we splurged last week and did a 1 night split stay at Boardwalk. Nothing kills the mood more than standing in a 20 min line and seeing hoards of FP+ers swoop in and your wait goes to 45. Not only does your wait inflate, but you literally just stand there for 5-10 mins at a time before progressing through the line.
The 3 FP thing then waiting standby at the secondary attractions has been, for us, the worst.
Perhaps its due to this being our first year having AP's in about 5 years, but we have really noticed FP+'s impact on our enjoyment.
We don't plan more than 30 days in advance. We stay mostly offsite, however we splurged last week and did a 1 night split stay at Boardwalk. Nothing kills the mood more than standing in a 20 min line and seeing hoards of FP+ers swoop in and your wait goes to 45. Not only does your wait inflate, but you literally just stand there for 5-10 mins at a time before progressing through the line.
The 3 FP thing then waiting standby at the secondary attractions has been, for us, the worst.
NelsonRD
Well-Known Member
I know your chart had some metrics behind it. My edit had more of a comical implementation. At least, I thought it was funny!
Dutch Inn '76
Well-Known Member
I think this whole exercise is silly. WDW has been "alone at the top" of the theme park world since it opened. I'm just glad it exists. I suppose there have been ebbs and flows of the "value" of my trips, but we're talking incremental differences. Stop overanalyzing the place and enjoy yourself, people.
Sans Souci
Well-Known Member
I appreciate @ParentsOf4 's analysis. He is known on this board for his charts and graphs. I think telling people how to feel about a topic on a message board is an exercise in silliness.
Starlight67
Well-Known Member
I think it's exactly BECAUSE Disney has set the standard that analyzing the parks on a discussion forum (where people come to...y'know, discuss things) like this one is a-okay.
Disney itself set very lofty standards in the theme park experience way back in the 1970's. People expect them to meet their own standards. When the experience starts to veer from those standards guests are disappointed. I'm rarely disappointed when I visit my local Six Flags, because the standards/quality of THAT experience have always been in the, 'it's okay/something to do on a free weekend' category. And it meets that mid-level standard every time.
justintheharris
Well-Known Member
I think the implementation of Fastpass Plus and Magic Bands warrants a downward slide on the graph.
Dutch Inn '76
Well-Known Member
Right, but the point is that everyone screeches about the experience being affected so much relative to the price. Even at $130/day (or whatever it is now), I think it's a deal. It would be a bargain at over $200/day (and it will be eventually). Look at all of what you get at a day at WDW. It's astounding, really.
I'm all for discussions about direction, theming, attractions, restaurants, etc, but to say that Disney has lost their way or is somehow less interested in the guest experience today than they were in 19xx is just silly. It sounds like two old folks grousing about how "things were better when I was a lad!" ...longing for the soda fountain or horse & buggy or something.
Disney World is better now than it ever has been. It's better every time I go. It's an amazing place! Have there been changes that I wish didn't happen? OF COURSE! But in almost every case, I understand that those changes were inevitable and had to happen. I know that The Mouse will always work to make it better, and I'm content with that.
The Empress Lilly
Well-Known Member
It sounds barely believable in the hypercapitalist post-80s world, but in the 70s WDW deliberately kept its prices low. It knew there was a gap between what they charged and what they could charge. The reason was that high prices would annoy guests, and irritation is anti-Disney, non-magical.
2018 TWDC? It will squeeze you out for all you're worth. It will penny pinch you in every way they can get away with. It will keep its cards to its chest as they haggle for prices, sizing you up through their ever refining data-gathering (*cough* Facebook *cough*, keep thinking you are too large too fall Disney). It will keep up the order to its midget middle management to decrease costs again and again, to find new ways to increase gain quarter-to-quarter. It will carve up its parks and resorts and sell them to the highest bidder, to the detriment of all others, creating an aggressive atmosphere of second-rate guests (private club in the Adventureland Veranda, upcharged viewing areas everywhere, the MK closed mid day for private upcharged tickets, the view from the Poly beach and even 600 dollar rooms lost to private bungalows etc etc etc).
2018 TWDC? It will squeeze you out for all you're worth. It will penny pinch you in every way they can get away with. It will keep its cards to its chest as they haggle for prices, sizing you up through their ever refining data-gathering (*cough* Facebook *cough*, keep thinking you are too large too fall Disney). It will keep up the order to its midget middle management to decrease costs again and again, to find new ways to increase gain quarter-to-quarter. It will carve up its parks and resorts and sell them to the highest bidder, to the detriment of all others, creating an aggressive atmosphere of second-rate guests (private club in the Adventureland Veranda, upcharged viewing areas everywhere, the MK closed mid day for private upcharged tickets, the view from the Poly beach and even 600 dollar rooms lost to private bungalows etc etc etc).
Some recall their parents complaining how expensive WDW used to be back in the early days. However, up until Michael Eisner and Frank Wells took over in 1984, the Disney CEO (Roy Disney, Donn Tatum, Card Walker, and then Ron Miller) genuinely resisted WDW price increases. They constantly fretted about what the public thought of Disney and followed Walt Disney's philosophy of providing outstanding customer value.
The reason I gave WDW a perfect score of '100' from 1982 to 1984 is that these were the years that WDW offered the best value. The period includes Disney's single largest investment ever, an unwavering commitment to customer satisfaction, and WDW's lowest prices relative to household income.
Those who think Disney is just as good today simply haven't experienced the old WDW or haven't analyzed the numbers the way I have.
When it opened in 1982, Epcot was unlike anything else on the planet, the company's greatest achievement since the opening of Disneyland in 1955, greater than the Magic Kingdom, which essentially was a copy of the original Disneyland.
Epcot cost more than 100% of company-wide annual income; it became The Walt Disney Company's single biggest investment ever. I remember Wall Street complaining bitterly about its cost but, more than 30 years later, Epcot continues to be a money-making machine for the company.
The Magic Kingdom and Epcot were about one-third less crowded than they are today. Yes, summer and Christmas were busy, but the rest of the year generally was not. Wait times were much shorter. I used to walk on many rides when I visited (typically May).
Back in WDW's Golden Age, broken and worn items were replaced immediately. My favorite personal example is what I call the "bench incident".
I was at the central hub at the Magic Kingdom in the early 1980s with friends and noticed a bench with chipped paint on one arm. We joked about it for the rest of the day. We even took a photo. Wouldn't you know it, we came back the next day and the chip was fixed to the point that we couldn't see where the chip had been! That was the level of maintenance WDW provided to its guests.
Up until 1984, even the most expensive room at the Contemporary or the Polynesian cost today's equivalent of about $250/night. $250/night is not cheap but in pales in comparison to today's prices, which start at over $500/night for the least expensive room.
A 3-day hopper (including tax) cost $35 in 1983, today's equivalent of $88. Today's 3-day hopper costs a jaw-dropping $394.
I haven't updated the below graph in a few years but it shows what has happened to WDW ticket prices relative to household income, using an adjusted baseline value of '1' for both in 1971:
(Note the Y-axis does not have a units; it's simply looking at relative changes to WDW ticket prices and household income.)
What this graph reveals is 3 ticket price eras at WDW.
The first is what I call the Walt Disney Legacy Era when ticket prices were relatively inexpensive. Walt Disney always emphasized to his subordinates that the company needed to provide its Guests with "good value". This pricing philosophy remained in place until Eisner took charge. Some who recall the time from their youths might have thought WDW was expensive but, relative to income, WDW was never less expensive. (I was able to afford a 3-day WDW vacation even though I was a lifeguard making a few dimes above minimum wage.)
The second is the Michael Eisner Era when ticket prices quickly increased by roughly 50% compared to Median Household Income and then held relatively steady for 15 years. There was a strong opinion in the industry in the mid-1980s that Disney theme park tickets were underpriced, and so the competition was relieved when Eisner hiked prices, even if WDW fans were furious. (And I was one of them!)
The third is the Paul Pressler/Jay Rasulo Era when price increases began a steady climb faster than household income. This era is dominated by a more analytical approach to pricing. "What's the biggest price increase we can get away with?"
This is the era we are in today.
I gave WDW a score of '87' for 2017, it's still a fun place to visit, but in terms of value, today's WDW is a far cry from what it once was.
Certainly the extensive planning is disliked by many. My DW loathes having to decide what attractions we will experience two months from now. It's one thing to say "we'll have dinner here". It's quite another to have to plan our visit hour-by-hour. I understand why others like this. However, it does mean that FastPass+ has both its supporters and its detractors.
Beyond the increased planning, I believe FastPass+ has resulted in longer Standby lines. I'll try to explain the logic behind this.
An attraction's wait time can be thought of as a 'cost' As the cost of an attraction increases (i.e. its wait time), fewer Guests are willing to pay that cost, causing lines to ebb and flow.
I propose that those who visit WDW infrequently are more likely to pay any price (i.e. wait in line for any amount of time) in order to experience certain attractions. They have little clear vision as when they might return. If they don't experience (for example) Frozen Ever After on THIS trip, they don't know when they will. These infrequent Guests also are less experienced with FastPass+ and are less likely to maximize its potential. They might not realize that Frozen Ever After is one of the most desirable FastPass+ selections and needs to be booked as early as possible.
Frequent WDW Guests have experienced all attractions multiple times and are less likely to pay a high cost (i.e. wait in a long Standby line). They also understand how to best utilize FastPass+ to gain advantages over those who do not. These experienced Guests are more likely to obtain the most desirable FastPass+ selections.
With the above in mind, we end up with a situation where those who are willing to pay the highest cost are also those who benefit the least from FastPass+. We end up with longer Standby lines.
FastPass+'s predecessor (FASTPASS) took away capacity from the Standby line, meaning there was less capacity for those who were willing to pay any price. I've been told the allocation of Standby-to-FP got even worse with FastPass+. If, for example, 50% of an attraction's capacity was allocated to FASTPASS, then 70% of that attraction's capacity is now allocated to FastPass+. This means the problem (i.e. long Standby lines) has only gotten worse with FastPass+.
I hope this makes sense.
Starlight67
Well-Known Member
This! My last trip (January of this year) was my parents VERY FIRST trip to Disney World, they're almost 80 btw. I have been visiting Disney every couple years since the late 1980's. So I have observed the parks and lived the Disney experience through the years.
My parents on the other hand had no such knowledge. And the quality of the experience 100% exceeded their expectations. All the lines that have appeared where there used to be none just seemed 'normal' to them. Being essentially chained to one park due to the FP+ system (rendering the ParkHopper feature borderline useless) also just normal. Things that made me think, 'ugh' didn't bother them a bit. I think being a Disney veteran is both a blessing and a curse!
Willmark
Well-Known Member
It does. I fully get the idea of "opportunity cost".Certainly the extensive planning is disliked by many. My DW loathes having to decide what attractions we will experience two months from now. It's one thing to say "we'll have dinner here". It's quite another to have to plan our visit hour-by-hour. I understand why others like this. However, it does mean that FastPass+ has both its supporters and its detractors.
Beyond the increased planning, I believe FastPass+ has resulted in longer Standby lines. I'll try to explain the logic behind this.
An attraction's wait time can be thought of as a 'cost' As the cost of an attraction increases (i.e. its wait time), fewer Guests are willing to pay that cost, causing lines to ebb and flow.
I propose that those who visit WDW infrequently are more likely to pay any price (i.e. wait in line for any amount of time) in order to experience certain attractions. They have little clear vision as when they might return. If they don't experience (for example) Frozen Ever After on THIS trip, they don't know when they will. These infrequent Guests also are less experienced with FastPass+ and are less likely to maximize its potential. They might not realize that Frozen Ever After is one of the most desirable FastPass+ selections and needs to be booked as early as possible.
Frequent WDW Guests have experienced all attractions multiple times and are less likely to pay a high cost (i.e. wait in a long Standby line). They also understand how to best utilize FastPass+ to gain advantages over those who do not. These experienced Guests are more likely to obtain the most desirable FastPass+ selections.
With the above in mind, we end up with a situation where those who are willing to pay the highest cost are also those who benefit the least from FastPass+. We end up with longer Standby lines.
FastPass+'s predecessor (FASTPASS) took away capacity from the Standby line, meaning there was less capacity for those who were willing to pay any price. I've been told the allocation of Standby-to-FP got even worse with FastPass+. If, for example, 50% of an attraction's capacity was allocated to FASTPASS, then 70% of that attraction's capacity is now allocated to FastPass+. This means the problem (i.e. long Standby lines) has only gotten worse with FastPass+.
I hope this makes sense.
I personally don't like it per see but that is the reality of what it is.
I think I come from it in a different place since I never went as a kids and we took our first trip as a family in 2011 at the tail end of the old fast pass system.
But to me the issues with Fastpass+ are a symptom not the cause. Disney has treated the parks the same way that the airlines treated air travel post 9-11 (bear with me). Prior to 9-11 I can quite easily recall half full flights. Now they are overbooked. Disney took the same idea and are "overbooking" the parks. This in turn reflects the idea of this thread of Disney through the Decades.
Kitchandro
Well-Known Member
I suppose certain factors are more important to some than others.
Like for me, the early 80s lacked many of my favourite attractions, not to mention entire parks, which were only built years after. Splash Mountain, Dinosaur, Tower of Terror, etc. Without those the place just wouldn't have the same impact to me.
For others, the quality of service is more important, others for price, and for others the theming.
I think if I had to pick a best era it would be 2000 - 2003-ish. Alien Encounter and The Great Movie Ride were still around, the theming of Tomorrowland hadn't been destroyed, Animal Kingdom (my favourite park) had been open (though without Everest), Pirates and Space Mountain were still the classic versions before all the unnecessary changes and there were no silly lands for single (and not always massively popular) films like we have now.
It's general opinion that Epcot was far better in it's early years than since the turn of the millenium so I'm not surprised if people rank that era as the best.
I don't think it can ever be quite 'perfect' because every year in it's history will be either before an attraction you love was opened or after an attraction you loved was closed.
Like for me, the early 80s lacked many of my favourite attractions, not to mention entire parks, which were only built years after. Splash Mountain, Dinosaur, Tower of Terror, etc. Without those the place just wouldn't have the same impact to me.
For others, the quality of service is more important, others for price, and for others the theming.
I think if I had to pick a best era it would be 2000 - 2003-ish. Alien Encounter and The Great Movie Ride were still around, the theming of Tomorrowland hadn't been destroyed, Animal Kingdom (my favourite park) had been open (though without Everest), Pirates and Space Mountain were still the classic versions before all the unnecessary changes and there were no silly lands for single (and not always massively popular) films like we have now.
It's general opinion that Epcot was far better in it's early years than since the turn of the millenium so I'm not surprised if people rank that era as the best.
I don't think it can ever be quite 'perfect' because every year in it's history will be either before an attraction you love was opened or after an attraction you loved was closed.
Willmark
Well-Known Member
Pretty good analysis. The closest comparison I can think of would be college titution with how it’s outpacing inflation. Not a one to one but the parallels are there.Some recall their parents complaining how expensive WDW used to be back in the early days. However, up until Michael Eisner and Frank Wells took over in 1984, the Disney CEO (Roy Disney, Donn Tatum, Card Walker, and then Ron Miller) genuinely resisted WDW price increases. They constantly fretted about what the public thought of Disney and followed Walt Disney's philosophy of providing outstanding customer value.
The reason I gave WDW a perfect score of '100' from 1982 to 1984 is that these were the years that WDW offered the best value. The period includes Disney's single largest investment ever, an unwavering commitment to customer satisfaction, and WDW's lowest prices relative to household income.
Those who think Disney is just as good today simply haven't experienced the old WDW or haven't analyzed the numbers the way I have.
When it opened in 1982, Epcot was unlike anything else on the planet, the company's greatest achievement since the opening of Disneyland in 1955, greater than the Magic Kingdom, which essentially was a copy of the original Disneyland.
Epcot cost more than 100% of company-wide annual income; it became The Walt Disney Company's single biggest investment ever. I remember Wall Street complaining bitterly about its cost but, more than 30 years later, Epcot continues to be a money-making machine for the company.
The Magic Kingdom and Epcot were about one-third less crowded than they are today. Yes, summer and Christmas were busy, but the rest of the year generally was not. Wait times were much shorter. I used to walk on many rides when I visited (typically May).
Back in WDW's Golden Age, broken and worn items were replaced immediately. My favorite personal example is what I call the "bench incident".
I was at the central hub at the Magic Kingdom in the early 1980s with friends and noticed a bench with chipped paint on one arm. We joked about it for the rest of the day. We even took a photo. Wouldn't you know it, we came back the next day and the chip was fixed to the point that we couldn't see where the chip had been! That was the level of maintenance WDW provided to its guests.
Up until 1984, even the most expensive room at the Contemporary or the Polynesian cost today's equivalent of about $250/night. $250/night is not cheap but in pales in comparison to today's prices, which start at over $500/night for the least expensive room.
A 3-day hopper (including tax) cost $35 in 1983, today's equivalent of $88. Today's 3-day hopper costs a jaw-dropping $394.
I haven't updated the below graph in a few years but it shows what has happened to WDW ticket prices relative to household income, using an adjusted baseline value of '1' for both in 1971:
View attachment 273709
(Note the Y-axis does not have a units; it's simply looking at relative changes to WDW ticket prices and household income.)
What this graph reveals is 3 ticket price eras at WDW.
The first is what I call the Walt Disney Legacy Era when ticket prices were relatively inexpensive. Walt Disney always emphasized to his subordinates that the company needed to provide its Guests with "good value". This pricing philosophy remained in place until Eisner took charge. Some who recall the time from their youths might have thought WDW was expensive but, relative to income, WDW was never less expensive. (I was able to afford a 3-day WDW vacation even though I was a lifeguard making a few dimes above minimum wage.)
The second is the Michael Eisner Era when ticket prices quickly increased by roughly 50% compared to Median Household Income and then held relatively steady for 15 years. There was a strong opinion in the industry in the mid-1980s that Disney theme park tickets were underpriced, and so the competition was relieved when Eisner hiked prices, even if WDW fans were furious. (And I was one of them!)
The third is the Paul Pressler/Jay Rasulo Era when price increases began a steady climb faster than household income. This era is dominated by a more analytical approach to pricing. "What's the biggest price increase we can get away with?"
This is the era we are in today.
I gave WDW a score of '87' for 2017, it's still a fun place to visit, but in terms of value, today's WDW is a far cry from what it once was.
The other thing that is interesting is there is a lot more competition for vacation dollars. Disney is no longer the only game in town which is good. Because sooner or later customers will vote with their wallets.
Another interesting point: generationally speaking Disney will be getting to an era where people don’t remember a time before Disney Parks. What do I mean by this? There are plenty of the older generation who have special places in their hearts. To many in the younger (or middle) generations like me , it’s just another company, not something beloved. Now of course this is not absolute, but the point stands. There will always be raving fans but you only have one time for those “first generation” fans as it were.
eliza61nyc
Well-Known Member
It would not matter if they deleted it or not, as someone above mentioned you guys are living in the "good old days when I was a child mentality ". Lol do you really think the Facebook generation traveler cares??
That's like when my grandmother complains about the price of gasoline being 27c a gallon.
Seriously. Why would knowing the price of a park ticker in 1978 influence my decision whether or not one would go?
Telling me that in 1982 Epcot was "unlike anything else" is important how. It's like trying to explain to my kids how revolutionary the first Star wars was in the 70's. Cute but so what.
1970s there wasn't an AK or HS. Average lifespan was 67 years.
I'm glad you guys want to go back to the Disney on 1975. I'm cool, I guess I don't miss what I never experienced or didn't pay attention to
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