From the OS: Gator drags child into Seven Seas Lagoon

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PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
In short... No. Your premises are actually called out in the previously mentioned case law and were not enough. There is nota standard that Disney must prevent gators from being there, nor are warnings irrelevant in limiting liability.

Disney's obligations to protect its visitors does have limits.

True. It's not Disney's fault if a Russian Satelite falls from the sky and lands on your car at the Poly. One just wouldn't reasonably assume that is a possibility. (That's my favorite analogy these days)

its reasonable to assume that you can splash on the shoreline without a Jurassic creature that survived a mass extinction coming up from the water and attack you.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
I've read most of this thread and have found it interesting (liability issues and such). Obviously not including the heartbreaking reality this family is now facing.
But I'm really curious as to where the boy actually was. I've read multiple different accounts online and in news articles. Even on this thread there is a debate about where the boy was when the attack occurred. The latest seems to be an eye witness lifeguard who said he was 10 feet from shore into the water wading. That's a far cry from a foot from shore, not in the water at all, etc.
I think it's important to know where the boy actually was, not to place blame on the parents or this situation but to actually know what we're dealing with here. Are alligators coming onto shore to snatch toddlers away? Are they lurking at the shoreline? Would they touch a human close to shore? Maybe signs telling people not to touch the water will solve this and prevent further incidents!? Maybe we need fences!? I have no idea...?

Alligators can climb a fence.
 

SorcererMC

Well-Known Member
What about all the other families, and the small kids that were on that beach at THAT time? How do you face your little ones, and tell them.....

Depending on the child's age/maturity level, you explain to them calmly that a terrible tragedy has occurred and you reassure them of their own safety, that you do everything you can to protect them and take care of them....that God (or whatever higher power you believe in) will bring healing to this family so that they won't suffer. (sorry if religious). You might even have a conversation with them about animal safety, if appropriate, if it helps the child understand.
 

zakattack99

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Do we have a solid or relatively soild version of what happened when this gator attacked? I have seen maybe 20 versions of this either on these boards or in the news. For example originally the boy was in a few inches of water, then he was out afoot into the water or some argue in water a foot deep, then this morning I get on and Daily Mail is saying he was out 10 feet! I have also heard conflicting reports about where the parents were. From the father having his back to the child, holding the child's hand, being with the child watching him a few feet away.

My point is we are all here trying to assess blame and liability when we don't even know what story is true. The facth is that unless someone here is working the case as part of the OCS office then we will probably never know the whole story. And I'm ok with that because why should this families nightmare be all over social media.
 

gmajew

Premium Member
This is getting old! Disney will have some fault because that is the way the world works today. Move on... Disney will make radical changes to the area so it can not happen again... My guess is a pool like fences around the water... so you can not get into it, plus signs.

Gators in florida will not go away no matter how much disney tries to move them off property... just not possible... Have seen videos of them in peoples pools under cars, in garages.... it is just part of life in this state.

Parents are not to blame for this and the bashing of them needs to stop! anyone that is bashing these poor parents should be banned from the boards. It was a horrible horrible accident that nothing that can be done or said can ever make it better for those involved. Show them the respect they deserve as they go through this horrible time and don't bash them.
 

LaughingGravy

Well-Known Member
First, I don't see a need to close the thread. After 80 pages of discussion, if you don't want to read it, stop clicking on the thread.
I would be curious to see the decades of paperwork of wild animal management at WDW and what they paid to who for services, whatever they may be from gator management to use of pesticides for flying critters.
Most of us adults here who went from the 70s on have seen the decline of what the seven seas lagoon used to be, even before River Country.
I suspect with each year of reduction of those costs, and/or non-renewal of contracts there is an increase in the the salaries and bonuses paid to the bean counters and suits of TDO for their forethought of saving the company money by taking the route of non-responsibility and a cheap sign that says "No Swimming".

Talk about a situation of "What would Walt do." He'd spend the money to do the job right, not lay the blame/responsibility on the fact that technically, Fish/Wildlife govt is responsible. The whole point of the Reedy Creek thing was to give some autonomy and to not rely on local or federal agencies to accomplish progress.
In this case, progress was creating a man-made lagoon surrounded by resorts full of people. With that comes responsibility, especially with what they are charging.
 

aw14

Well-Known Member
First, I don't see a need to close the thread. After 80 pages of discussion, if you don't want to read it, stop clicking on the thread.
I would be curious to see the decades of paperwork of wild animal management at WDW and what they paid to who for services, whatever they may be from gator management to use of pesticides for flying critters.
Most of us adults here who went from the 70s on have seen the decline of what the seven seas lagoon used to be, even before River Country.
I suspect with each year of reduction of those costs, and/or non-renewal of contracts there is an increase in the the salaries and bonuses paid to the bean counters and suits of TDO for their forethought of saving the company money by taking the route of non-responsibility and a cheap sign that says "No Swimming".

Talk about a situation of "What would Walt do." He'd spend the money to do the job right, not lay the blame/responsibility on the fact that technically, Fish/Wildlife govt is responsible. The whole point of the Reedy Creek thing was to give some autonomy and to not rely on local or federal agencies to accomplish progress.
In this case, progress was creating a man-made lagoon surrounded by resorts full of people. With that comes responsibility, especially with what they are charging.
this thread consistently goes in such a negative direction. I just love how people form their own opinions without any know certainties or facts. With that said, what does Disney's charging costs have to do with this? If someone doesn't want to pay to go to Disney, simply put.....dont.

I agree that I think this thread should be closed at this point. There is nothing constructive here
 

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
You're absolutely correct - it is subjective. Which is why I'm not blaming the parents for allowing their child to wade in the water. If the sign had said "No swimming or wading." or even "Danger - do not enter water! (which would mean , to me, do not even stick your toe in) I would not touch the water. There are signs in my local park saying exactly that - "Do Not Allow Your Children to Swim or Play in This Water!"
There is a sign at Brooklyn Bridge Park near my job that warns against swimming, and wading explicitly.
It is at a small beach - complete with sand - that was created when the park was constructed a couple of years ago.
When the beach was first opened, and before the signs were up - I would often see parents allow their little ones to get their feet wet as they played along the waters edge.
I haven't seen a parent allow their kids to plod along the waters edge since the signs went up.
(I walk through this park twice a week on my lunch break.)
 

216bruce

Well-Known Member
It was a tragic accident. They happen. WDW takes very reasonable precautions and has an entire department that deals with native wildlife. No ones fault.
There's no place on Earth that is immune from accidents happening, no matter how well funded, guarded, warned and planned the place is.
Why the first reaction of so many to look for and to place blame is both sad and pathetic.
 

trampdog

Well-Known Member
It's unfortunate this happened. I was actually a few hundred yards away when it happened. Didn't see it, just heard it.

Disney has had those lakes closed to swimming for many years, mainly because of bacteria. Signs clearly say stay out of the water. It's a tragedy, but could have been avoided
 
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sublimesting

Well-Known Member
True, but there's a huge difference in a "No swimming" sign that you assume is because there is no lifeguards and it's a liability to be in the water, and a "No swimming" with the assumption that you might get eaten by an alligator. The two aren't even close. I used to be a lifeguard, and when we had to close a section, we'd plop a "No swimming" sign up. People who knew how to swim would really have no reason to think they would suddenly be in danger if they swam under the rope to that area. "No swimming" signs are pretty common.

I spent a year and a half traveling throughout Australia - they were quite clear on every sign WHY you shouldn't be swimming in that body of water - they would explicitly state whether the danger was from crocodiles, sharks, or jellyfish. A sign that said "No swimming - Alligators" would have been far more effective in keeping people out. To me, "No swimming" is the equivalent of "No Lifeguard on duty".

This exactly! Wading isn't swimming. People view swimming as splashing around in deep water and swimming about not strolling along the shoreline. People don't assume they will be killed outright when a sign says No Swimming. They assume it means the water may not be clean, perhaps there are no lifeguards or the property owner just doesn't want the liability. Like it or not you have to consider what people think when you word stuff (I do this for a living in the regulatory aspect of the pharmaceutical industry. You may clearly state something but you have to think how that may be interpreted.) They do NOT assume instant death. And to everyone saying it was deep for the child... well, perhaps but not for the adults with him. Who among us has walked along a beach or lake with the kid in thigh deep water while it is up to our lower calves and we think nothing of it. I'm not even sure this sign was put up with any consideration to alligators. We used to swim in those lakes and River Country. It was put up due to general liability and the amoeba.
 

thomas998

Well-Known Member
this thread consistently goes in such a negative direction. I just love how people form their own opinions without any know certainties or facts. With that said, what does Disney's charging costs have to do with this? If someone doesn't want to pay to go to Disney, simply put.....dont.

I agree that I think this thread should be closed at this point. There is nothing constructive here
If you don't like the thread don't click on it.... as for the basis of closing it being that there is nothing constructive here.... Well to be honest if that were the criteria for determining when a thread should be closed you would probably have to close down 90% of the threads... Lets be honest a thread discussing anything beyond how to get to a particular destination or what to expect on a ride is about the only ones that are constructive.... Discusing what you think Disney should do, what Walt would have done, what you think about a new ride, what you miss about an old ride or why Disney World is better than Disneyland aren't constructive.

For those that like to say we need to close it when no one is forcing them to return to it, when you leave a party early do you require the rest of the people to stop partying and go home to? Think about it.... the world doesn't revolve around you, me or anyone else.
 

BigRedDad

Well-Known Member
Another day, more pointing fingers and the blame game. Why does this not shock me?
There is blame. The blame is on the alligator...simple as that. Did the alligator do anything wrong within its instincts or environment? No. What is unfortunate is that a 2 year old was in the territory of a feeding alligator and was determined to be a meal. It is a freak accident of nature. There is no blame beyond the alligator. You can "what-if" all day long.
 

EngineJoe

Well-Known Member
DisneyDreamer08- I read the story as well.

Yesterday I also heard a speaker essentially say that there have been no other RECENT gator attacks in the SAME MANNER.

Those were well-parced red flag words that indicated that this has happened before. Word games.

Sure enough.

Not really. Nobody has ever been killed by an alligator at Disney before. Only 28 people have died in 40 years in the entire United States from an alligator attack.
 
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