Fourth Disneyland Hotel Officially Cancelled

[Disney Irish]

Well, the Harbor Bridge is very much in Anaheim's interest. If Disney and the City will work together to come up with a revised plan with more carrot and less stick for the Harbor businesses, then we could see some movement. My one question is whether the on/off ramps to and from the I-5 South were engineered to handle the volume of traffic in and out Darkbeer, are you there?). They also need to add electronic signage on I-5 northbound to better direct visitors either to Toy Story Lot or Simba via Chapman, Orangewood, and Disney Way.

Writing this has prompted an epiphany on my part which I will continue in a new Master Plan thread.

Yes its very much in Anaheim's interest to eliminate the pedestrian traffic crossing Harbor. The problem has been that Anaheim's current Council makeup wanted to shift all the blame to Disney instead of saying, this is part of the Master Resort Plan agreed upon previously.

So while Disney yes could make some better design choices, its really the Harbor businesses that need to accept that its part of the Master Resort Plan that they've all know about.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

Yes its very much in Anaheim's interest to eliminate the pedestrian traffic crossing Harbor. The problem has been that Anaheim's current Council makeup wanted to shift all the blame to Disney instead of saying, this is part of the Master Resort Plan agreed upon previously.

So while Disney yes could make some better design choices, its really the Harbor businesses that need to accept that its part of the Master Resort Plan that they've all know about.

I largely agree, but I think Disney and the City working together can make this more palatable and workable. I think both Disney and the City needed to adjust their approach. And with Cleo opening, they have some time to allow USCIS to vacate and do the project in one swoop, possibly in conjunction with any developments re: GardenWalk.

 

[Disney Irish]

I largely agree, but I think Disney and the City working together can make this more palatable and workable. I think both Disney and the City needed to adjust their approach. And with Cleo opening, they have some time to allow USCIS to vacate and do the project in one swoop, possibly in conjunction with any developments re: GardenWalk.

We'll see, I just think its going to end up being that the same plan resubmitted with some minor alternations. Such as Disney paying to have the backend of the Harbor businesses outfitted with the access to the walkway to the bridge. But no real changes to the bridge itself other than maybe some cosmetic design elements added to make it more "pretty".

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

We'll see, I just think its going to end up being that the same plan resubmitted with some minor alternations. Such as Disney paying to have the backend of the Harbor businesses outfitted with the access to the walkway to the bridge. But no real changes to the bridge itself other than maybe some cosmetic design elements added to make it more "pretty".

I hope they look at my idea for an exit-only ramp/stairs/elevator with Security post on the East side of Harbor. The Carousel Motel property looks to be about 75 feet wide. If they push the anchor point for the bridge back I think there is adequate footprint to manage this. I think this could be an additional incentive for the Harbor businesses.

 

[nevol]

I hope they look at my idea for an exit-only ramp/stairs/elevator with Security post on the East side of Harbor. The Carousel Motel property looks to be about 75 feet wide. If they push the anchor point for the bridge back I think there is adequate footprint to manage this. I think this could be an additional incentive for the Harbor businesses.

Good idea. They could honestly have both an entrance and exit ramp on harbor heading east to connect to the rest of the bridge traffic to head back west, with one of the ramps (the on-ramp) having a security checkpoint.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

Good idea. They could honestly have both an entrance and exit ramp on harbor heading east to connect to the rest of the bridge traffic to head back west, with one of the ramps (the on-ramp) having a security checkpoint.

I don't see where they could accommodate a security checkpoint. This is a fairly small footprint. What I think is more feasible is for Disney and the City to work out a way to make it financially attractive for the motels to put gateways on the backside of their properties and add an entrance on the North of the Eastern Gateway to serve McDonald's and surrounding hotels--a pathway that crosses multiple property lines including the West Coast University lot rather than sending everyone North on Harbor then East/Southest on Manchester. I'm thinking of McD's, Panera, Mimi's and Fairfield Inn most of all. It's not quite as bad for HoJo's, Courtyard, Holiday Inn, and Quality Inn.

 

[Disney Irish]

I hope they look at my idea for an exit-only ramp/stairs/elevator with Security post on the East side of Harbor. The Carousel Motel property looks to be about 75 feet wide. If they push the anchor point for the bridge back I think there is adequate footprint to manage this. I think this could be an additional incentive for the Harbor businesses.

I don't see where they could accommodate a security checkpoint. This is a fairly small footprint. What I think is more feasible is for Disney and the City to work out a way to make it financially attractive for the motels to put gateways on the backside of their properties and add an entrance on the North of the Eastern Gateway to serve McDonald's and surrounding hotels--a pathway that crosses multiple property lines including the West Coast University lot rather than sending everyone North on Harbor then East/Southest on Manchester. I'm thinking of McD's, Panera, Mimi's and Fairfield Inn most of all. It's not quite as bad for HoJo's, Courtyard, Holiday Inn, and Quality Inn.

I'm not sure how you do all that without building a separate bridge specifically for non-Disney foot traffic with no access to the parks. The whole point is to have security checkpoint before the bridge. This is to keep as much of the security threat away from the esplanade.

 

[nevol]

I don't see where they could accommodate a security checkpoint. This is a fairly small footprint. What I think is more feasible is for Disney and the City to work out a way to make it financially attractive for the motels to put gateways on the backside of their properties and add an entrance on the North of the Eastern Gateway to serve McDonald's and surrounding hotels--a pathway that crosses multiple property lines including the West Coast University lot rather than sending everyone North on Harbor then East/Southest on Manchester. I'm thinking of McD's, Panera, Mimi's and Fairfield Inn most of all. It's not quite as bad for HoJo's, Courtyard, Holiday Inn, and Quality Inn.

Didn't you just say that the property was 75 feet wide?

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

I'm not sure how you do all that without building a separate bridge specifically for non-Disney foot traffic with no access to the parks. The whole point is to have security checkpoint before the bridge. This is to keep as much of the security threat away from the esplanade.

If you mean a separate bridge over Harbor for non-Disney foot traffic, there's no reason for that. What I'm suggesting is a way or exiting Disney visitors to cross over to the East side of Harbor and exit down some combination of ramp/stairs/elevator onto Harbor. I think the footprint at the East end of the pedestrian bridge could potentially accomodate this, given that the width of the Carousel site is approximately 75 feet. They would have to make the bridge span about 20-25 feet longer to allow for adequate space inside the fence and exit gate under the bridge. I don't know what the specific tolerances are. But it would be an additional incentive for Harbor businesses, especially the restaurants. All guests would have to enter the security screening area from the Manchester side. But I'm also suggesting the City help in opening a pedestrian access on the North end of the Eastern Gateway for those select properties (still on the outside of the screening area). Sorry this is so small, but here's a rough idea.

Blue = Staging area for exiting under the bridge, including security station.
Orange = Ramp from bridge approach down to Harbor access.
Red = Stairs.
Black = Elevator.
Green = exit to sidewalk on Harbor.
Yellow = Access from North to Eastern Gateway from Northeast properties.
Purple = Access from motels to pedestrian path. Note: the top property would need a walkway down to the unsecured area.

All of this is approximate and depends on tolerances permitted by code.

 

[nevol]

They could have a 5 foot wide ramp on either side; one for entry, one for exit, and the bridge would still be 65 feet at its most narrow (main street is 50 feet wide). Mostly, all that would be lost is landscaping for a portion of the bridge, so it wouldn't even take out capacity. Below the site plan that i edited to show the location of the ramps, I made a quick side elevation. The ramps in this are at a 10 degree incline. I think the Eastern gateway approach met ADA requirements of being 10 or 12 degrees. There is a flat section where they meet that could house a security/bag check with one officer and metal detector. Traffic coming from south of harbor and Disney way could be routed through the main entry gateway, so that this ramp is only serving this particular block/businesses. If the slope seems too aggressive, then the ramp would just extend further east.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

Didn't you just say that the property was 75 feet wide?

But there's no room on the Harbor side for security screening. Look at the size of the screening area at the Eastern end of the approach ramp.

 

[nevol]

If you mean a separate bridge over Harbor for non-Disney foot traffic, there's no reason for that. What I'm suggesting is a way or exiting Disney visitors to cross over to the East side of Harbor and exit down some combination of ramp/stairs/elevator onto Harbor. I think the footprint at the East end of the pedestrian bridge could potentially accomodate this, given that the width of the Carousel site is approximately 75 feet. They would have to make the bridge span about 20-25 feet longer to allow for adequate space inside the fence and exit gate under the bridge. I don't know what the specific tolerances are. But it would be an additional incentive for Harbor businesses, especially the restaurants. All guests would have to enter the security screening area from the Manchester side. But I'm also suggesting the City help in opening a pedestrian access on the North end of the Eastern Gateway for those select properties (still on the outside of the screening area). Sorry this is so small, but here's a rough idea.
View attachment 319621
Blue = Staging area for exiting under the bridge, including security station.
Orange = Ramp from bridge approach down to Harbor access.
Red = Stairs.
Black = Elevator.
Green = exit to sidewalk on Harbor.
Yellow = Access from North to Eastern Gateway from Northeast properties.
Purple = Access from motels to pedestrian path. Note: the top property would need a walkway down to the unsecured area.

All of this is approximate and depends on

Not what I meant, and this looks infinitely more complicated.

 

[nevol]

But there's no room on the Harbor side for security screening. Look at the size of the screening area at the Eastern end of the approach ramp.

See image above. The screening would never happen on the sidewalk; there would be a backup of traffic onto the public sidewalk if they put a bag check there. having it further east at the merge point puts the security line on disney property.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

Not what I meant, and this looks infinitely more complicated.

It could be ramp only. But I don't think an entrance from Harbor will work. Five feet isn't near wide enough and security would take a lot more than that.

 

[Disney Irish]

If you mean a separate bridge over Harbor for non-Disney foot traffic, there's no reason for that. What I'm suggesting is a way or exiting Disney visitors to cross over to the East side of Harbor and exit down some combination of ramp/stairs/elevator onto Harbor. I think the footprint at the East end of the pedestrian bridge could potentially accomodate this, given that the width of the Carousel site is approximately 75 feet. They would have to make the bridge span about 20-25 feet longer to allow for adequate space inside the fence and exit gate under the bridge. I don't know what the specific tolerances are. But it would be an additional incentive for Harbor businesses, especially the restaurants. All guests would have to enter the security screening area from the Manchester side. But I'm also suggesting the City help in opening a pedestrian access on the North end of the Eastern Gateway for those select properties (still on the outside of the screening area). Sorry this is so small, but here's a rough idea.
View attachment 319621
Blue = Staging area for exiting under the bridge, including security station.
Orange = Ramp from bridge approach down to Harbor access.
Red = Stairs.
Black = Elevator.
Green = exit to sidewalk on Harbor.
Yellow = Access from North to Eastern Gateway from Northeast properties.
Purple = Access from motels to pedestrian path. Note: the top property would need a walkway down to the unsecured area.

All of this is approximate and depends on tolerances permitted by code.

I'm sorry but this looks so complicated and I'm not sure what the real benefit would be to anyone involved.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

See image above. The screening would never happen on the sidewalk; there would be a backup of traffic onto the public sidewalk if they put a bag check there. having it further east at the merge point puts the security line on disney property.

But there's no room for screening in the footprint of the approach ramp. Look at the size of what's in the Eastern Gateway screening and staging area.

 

[nevol]

 

[nevol]

But there's no room for screening in the footprint of the approach ramp. Look at the size of what's in the Eastern Gateway screening and staging area.

Yes, and keeping the rest of the screening area in tact, this would add, not detract from capacity. It is only serving as a screening area for one block of harbor businesses, and as a grand gesture to those businesses. When the ramp fills up, additional guests are rerouted to the expanse of the eastern gateway security checkpoints. For perspective, please check out how small the escalators out of the new parking structure to the east are. This is actually a huge property. And refer to how small the sidewalk on the southern end of the property is, serving Harbor Blvd traffic as it entered the rest of the complex to the east. The traffic engineers do not anticipate harbor traffic requiring anything more than a typical urban sidewalk of about 5 feet. Having a dedicated on and off ramp for harbor traffic actually doubles what is necessary, solely to serve the security needs.

 

[Disney Irish]

Basically the easiest thing they can do is to have one side (even both sides) along the ramp at ground level allowing accessing into the security area from Harbor. This allows for Harbor access to the bridge and allows the security screening to stay on the Machester side.

And then obviously opening the access from each of the Harbor businesses backends into the pathway leading up to the security area.

 

[nevol]

Basically the easiest thing they can do is to have one side (even both sides) along the ramp at ground level allowing accessing into the security area from Harbor. This allows for Harbor access to the bridge and allows the security screening to stay on the Machester side.

View attachment 319626

And then obviously opening the access from each of the Harbor businesses backends into the pathway leading up to the security area.

I realized that after I made a few of those elevations. Literally all they need to do is pave a sidewalk from the harbor sidewalk toward the beginning of the ramp as it ascends to the east. allow no entry onto any sidewalks dedicated to exit, and feed those who are entering the ramp into a security checkpoint.