Fire Mountain

[WDWFigment]

MK has been doing much to get the place cleaned up again. Another ride would be great and I am sure we will get one, but we have had some great onesbuilt the last few years. Space, Soarin, and Everest.



None of those new rides (Space, Soarin, and Everest) are in MK. Using rides from other parks to defend the MK's deficit of rides, proves my point.

The new C ticket every 2 years plan for MK, Laugh Floor, Stitch, BL-SRS, while cute and fun just don't fill the E ticket void this park faces. You shut down SM for referb and you're left with 4 or 5. DL shuts down SM and the subs and they still have a dozen or more to carry the load.

I understand your frustration, but the MK and DL are two totally different beasts, with different needs and visitor-types.

If you want to compare anything, compare California's Disney experience with Florida's. In California, you have two parks to enjoy. In Florida, you have four. E ticket attractions total in the two parks versus the four parks? The four parks have more E tickets, and more attractions in general.

When DL makes changes to their parks, or adds rides, they spread these attractions out over two parks. When WDW does the same, they have four parks to do this in. Look at most of the "additional" E-Tickets in DL. You'll find almost all somewhere in WDW.

While I understand that WDW overall brings in more revenue (so they should thus have more capital to put towards growth) they also have more maintenance expenditures, etc. because of the immersive nature of the resort. Also, they are limited in resources: both ideas for attractions and workers to build said attractions.

 

[Mansion Butler]

Star Tours

Um. . . yeah, because Star Tours is elsewhere. Since, you know, there are seperate parks.

 

[erasure fan1]

I don't consider refurbishing rides a reasonable replacement for new attractions, and I realize they are spending a fortune on these changes, but that is only because they went cheap on maintenance for years as they pushed these projects off. It's like if you slack off at work for a week and fall behind, your boss will not be happy the following week if you merely catch up on what you should've done the week before. I accept that Disney has been lazy and they have a Magic Kingdom that is falling apart, and I am happy they are slowly trying to fix it, but that doesn't excuse the behavior or give them an out from doing what they should've done all along. Yes, the other parks "need it more", but over on the West Coast, we have hundreds of millions about to go into DCA and DL has managed to keep its classics up to date while adding attractions, including one that just cost $150,000,000. The only need I see is for Disney to keep its entire brand up to snuff. Guests do not view each park as a separate entity as we do because they don't worry about the fact that each park has different management teams. For all the defense of current practices that goes on around here, I still (STILL!) see burned out lightbulbs on Main Street, USA. Is this not incredibly alarming? They need to stop burning tons of cash on pointless marketing campaigns and make a trip to Home Depot for some Energy Efficient lightbulbs that won't burn out as quickly.

I totaly agree with this, they let things go and now they are playing catch up. I dont agree that just because the park is #1 it doesnt need a new E-ticket. I think thats all the more reason. Most people I think see the MK as the "flag ship" of WDW, because of that it should get a lot of attention. If all the maintenance had been done when it needed to be done they might have been constructing a fire/bald mountain instead of fixing a busted HM or SM. Just my thoughts because I love the bald/fire mountain idea, it would be one heck of a great addition to the MK.

 

[dave2822]

There are 11 Disney parks and the one setting the records is getting the least attention. It will eventually lose its spot unless it is invested in, perhaps as soon as Harry Potter moves into Orlando.

I understand you are trying to make a point but do you REALLY think IOA is going to gain 10 MILLION people from a Harry Potter land? IOA is almost out of the Top 10 U.S. Parks right now.

 

[CarlHS]

OK, lets compare your way:

Since 2000, CA has gotten 30+ new attractions ( 21 + 4 Es in DCA, and 4 + 2 Es in DL). WDW has gotten 2 E's (Everest & Soarin') and 5 or 6 other attractions (and no, Mission Space is not an E ticket). Now, yes DCA is a new park, but you guys don't want to compare park to park, so by comparing CA to FL, CA still blows away FL. Now, let's add Lassiters billion dollar plus, fix for DCA (which already blows away MGM for content) and you still lose in WDW.

Now add the money generated by FL vs CA and the disparity gets worse, but as long as all the 'sheep' who go to WDW tow the company line by defending MK as "not needing anything" (even thought there's less there than Walt himself envisioned (the 'negative 1' E tickets previously mentioned since the addition of Splash over 20 years ago) will remain in effect. A Billion plus in WDW would get you 4 E ticket (one for each park at a gigantic minimum, probably 4 other rides too).

Just a customer service comparison would indicate that with 1/2 the attractions and more people, MK's wait times must far exceed those of DL. I guess Californian's have higher expectations than WDW visitors and therefore get far better service and enhancements. Perhaps to 20% AP levels in FL would grow closer to the 80% of CA if the FL parks were treated more like the CA parks.

Oh well, I guess our only hope is that Harry Potter steals visitors like crazy from MK, so that Disney will fight back. It's seem the general MK park gowers have little interest in Growth at MK.

 

[PhilharMagician]

I understand your frustration, but the MK and DL are two totally different beasts, with different needs and visitor-types.

If you want to compare anything, compare California's Disney experience with Florida's. In California, you have two parks to enjoy. In Florida, you have four. E ticket attractions total in the two parks versus the four parks? The four parks have more E tickets, and more attractions in general.

When DL makes changes to their parks, or adds rides, they spread these attractions out over two parks. When WDW does the same, they have four parks to do this in. Look at most of the "additional" E-Tickets in DL. You'll find almost all somewhere in WDW.

While I understand that WDW overall brings in more revenue (so they should thus have more capital to put towards growth) they also have more maintenance expenditures, etc. because of the immersive nature of the resort. Also, they are limited in resources: both ideas for attractions and workers to build said attractions.

WDW sees more than twice the amount of visitors each year than DL/CA.

Approx last year:
45 million guests @ WDW
21 Million guests @ DL/CA

So far over the past year of so WDW has seen an increase in love, but it has been slightly lopsided for way to long. WDW was not the first, but it is the FLAGSHIP of the companies Theme Park business and should be treated as such.

Maintenance fees will be divided up among the Water Parks, 15+ Resort Hotels, Theme Parks, golf courses, mini golf courses, DTD and probably more that I can't even think of. On the other hand all of these entities generate the money needed to cover the entire WDW Resort maintenance costs.

Not have ideas for attractions and rides:lol: . Where is Lee or Corrus to comment on this. There are probably rooms full of designs, models and drawings for new rides and attractions that we will never see or hear of.

To finish my point WDW deserves a few major attractions and many small ones along with the completion of AK.

 

[cmatt]

To finish my point WDW deserves a few major attractions and many small ones along with the completion of AK.

word.

 

[dave2822]

Sure I'd love to see WDW grow and MK to have another major e-ticket and everything everyone is saying, but I'm pretty pleased at what they are offering now and what they have on slate for the near future.

And I think that AK at 10 years old is further along in its development than MK, EPCOT, or MGM was.

But maybe I'm just too much of an optimist.

 

[CarlHS]

Maintenance fees will be divided up among the Water Parks, 15+ resorts, Theme Parks, golf courses, mini golf courses, DTD and probably more that I can't even think of. On the other hand all of these entities generate money to cover the resorts maintenance.

To tout Maintenance as the reason for this significant disparity is ludicrous. The revenue generated by a resort, a water park, DTD or whatever generates plenty for that locations maintenance , then profit is determined, and then that profit is diverted (in WDW’s case) to other places in far too great a disparity. Unless you really believe that there is not enough revenue at WDW to upkeep its components and therefore development dollars need to be diverted to upkeep. Tokyo’s profits are dedicated to expanding Tokyo and CA to expanding CA, but each and every time, WDW bears the lion’s share of the costs of expansion elsewhere (first Tokyo, then Paris, HK, and who knows where next).

Until competition surfaces in Orlando, or patrons go elsewhere within Disney’s parks, or WDW patrons get vocal (with their dollars as well as visits and comments) nothing will change.

My point is pretty simple: WDW would get more growth with the 1 billion investment than CA would, but as long as people continue with their “MK is good enough” mentality, then “MK is good enough” will stay the mantra of Disney management.

There is no reason WDW should have so many less AP’s than DL does. It should be far more! There’s no reason WDW should have 3% to 5% growth (sales and attendance) when DL is having 10%. The perceived (and actual) value of CA exceeds that of FL by far, so there’s a reason to get an AP each year. In FL every other or every third year is enough because nothing changes much.

If Florida management has any clue at all, they will start lobbying for real growth in FL. A fifth gate would guarantee 10 million additional visits (a 22% increase), but I forget, FL visitors are content to see attractions being referb’ed after years of delayed maintenance in lieu of a real maintenance plan and true reinvestment. If your maintenance philosophy is true, you must be very proud of Disney management for their decision to close 20K, the maintenance savings was astronomical.

WDW visitors unite!

 

[RSoxNo1]

While I don't disagree that more attention needs to be paid to the Magic Kingdom, I feel that much of the E-Ticket discussion is going to end up in circles. Without the attractions being currently designated at certain levels anymore it's hard to determine what is and isn't an E-Ticket.

Soarin' and Everest are E-tickets without a doubt where Mission Space is questionable? What determines this? The budget allocated on the specific attraction? If that's the case Mission Space is an e-ticket.

Along the same lines, when 20k leagues closed in the Magic Kingdom, I wouldn't have considered an e-ticket, while others would have. Although I wasn't very old when I last went on 20k leagues, the ride itself wasn't very memorable. While we're at it, neither were the sea cabs or hydrolators. I'm all for nostalgia, but I think many of us fall victim to the wide eyed view of things during the good old days. If Epcot, in it's "Future of 1982 World" existed today but simply with updated animatronics and well maintained versions of Horizons and World of Motion instead of Mission Space and Test Track, the park would most assuredly be struggling.

For the most part, change is good - although some changes may not have been met with positive results, the idea behind change is to move forward. That's what progress is, and that's what so much of Disney is all about.

When we get to comparing the stateside parks, up until Disneyland's 50th anniversary WDW was blowing it out of the water in terms of park quality. The refurb of space mountain went a long way as did other refurbs around the park. Now, while I don't doubt that Disneyland has more rides than it's Magic Kingdom counterpart, I do think that labeling so many attractions as E-tickets aren't necessarily fair.

Splash Mountain in Disneyland is a fringe e-ticket when compared to it's WDW counterpart

The Matterhorn is a fringe e-ticket given it's age, and how unconformtable the ride actually is.

On the same token, WDW's Space Mountain pales in comparison to Disneyland's but I'd put them both in that E-Ticket category.

The Nemo Subs and Indiana Jones have no counter part in the Magic Kingdom and that's where the primary problem is in my opinion. I think that another E-Ticket is necessary, but on the same lines, I recognize the value that a new and improved Space Mountain will bring as well. I don't think Fire Mountain in it's original form is the answer, but I do like the morphing coaster idea. I'm thinking that the idea for a morphing coaster has been on Imagineers minds for 10+ years now, it's only a matter of time before they make it happen.

 

[WDWFigment]

Maintenance fees will be divided up among the Water Parks, 15+ resorts, Theme Parks, golf courses, mini golf courses, DTD and probably more that I can't even think of. On the other hand all of these entities generate money to cover the resorts maintenance.

To tout Maintenance as the reason for this significant disparity is ludicrous. The revenue generated by a resort, a water park, DTD or whatever generates plenty for that locations maintenance , then profit is determined, and then that profit is diverted (in WDW’s case) to other places in far too great a disparity. Unless you really believe that there is not enough revenue at WDW to upkeep its components and therefore development dollars need to be diverted to upkeep. Tokyo’s profits are dedicated to expanding Tokyo and CA to expanding CA, but each and every time, WDW bears the lion’s share of the costs of expansion elsewhere (first Tokyo, then Paris, HK, and who knows where next).

Until competition surfaces in Orlando, or patrons go elsewhere within Disney’s parks, or WDW patrons get vocal (with their dollars as well as visits and comments) nothing will change.

My point is pretty simple: WDW would get more growth with the 1 billion investment than CA would, but as long as people continue with their “MK is good enough” mentality, then “MK is good enough” will stay the mantra of Disney management.

There is no reason WDW should have so many less AP’s than DL does. It should be far more! There’s no reason WDW should have 3% to 5% growth (sales and attendance) when DL is having 10%. The perceived (and actual) value of CA exceeds that of FL by far, so there’s a reason to get an AP each year. In FL every other or every third year is enough because nothing changes much.

If Florida management has any clue at all, they will start lobbying for real growth in FL. A fifth gate would guarantee 10 million additional visits (a 22% increase), but I forget, FL visitors are content to see attractions being referb’ed after years of delayed maintenance in lieu of a real maintenance plan and true reinvestment. If your maintenance philosophy is true, you must be very proud of Disney management for their decision to close 20K, the maintenance savings was astronomical.

WDW visitors unite!

Your last two posts have won me over. I still have to wonder the 'why' behind this. Disney management can't possibly want lower annual passholders, they can't want to have any less business than the utmost amount possible. So is there something else to explain why the Florida Parks have gotten less attention than the CA parks? Is it just laziness on the FL management team's part? Could this be changing now that we have some new higher ups?

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

If you visit DLP you will realise how mince it is and how it really does need dditional attractions. What it has is generally very good, its just that it dosent have enough of it.

IMHO, the MK does need additional attractions but no where near as badly as MGM, a park that is half day at best.

 

[Mansion Butler]

OK, lets compare your way:

Since 2000, CA has gotten 30+ new attractions ( 21 + 4 Es in DCA, and 4 + 2 Es in DL). WDW has gotten 2 E's (Everest & Soarin') and 5 or 6 other attractions (and no, Mission Space is not an E ticket).

Yes it is. It's a bad E ticket, but it's an E ticket.


I get alot of your points, but WDW is focusing on MANY things right now that Disneyland does not. I wish they would focus on the parks more, and I wish they would refurb MK AND add new stuff at the same time that they were focusing much needed attention on MGM. I do want that.

But it's not what Disney should do. They should do whatever they want, which is whatever keeps them popular and keeps the money rolling in. They don't owe anyone a thing.

 

[Mansion Butler]

And I think that AK at 10 years old is further along in its development than MK, EPCOT, or MGM was.

Agreed. Animal Kingdom, too me, reprisents the culmination of years of practice and learning how to make theme parks, and is a product of patience and preparation - unlike some parks (I'm looking at you MGM).

They reserved a HUGE amount of land so that expansion is almost completely limited by only the imagination. The theme is widespread enough to allow for lots of ideas to still fit, yet what's there is intricate and beautiful. They did the animal thing right, they're doing incorperating the attractions right. Heck, they're temporary character-greeting kid spot - essentially their version of Toon Town - even works compared to most incarnations of the idea. DAK has a bright future.

Only problem is they went lazy with their raft ride and completely dropped the ball with their Dinosaur area. Seems like an ugly scar that's going to be there for a while. Like a hair mole the shape of Michigan on an otherwise beautiful face.

 

[Mansion Butler]

A fifth gate would guarantee 10 million additional visits (a 22% increase),

You said alot that was correct. There is no evidence, however, to support that.

 

[marni1971]

Agreed. Animal Kingdom, too me, reprisents the culmination of years of practice and learning how to make theme parks, and is a product of patience and preparation - unlike some parks (I'm looking at you MGM).

They reserved a HUGE amount of land so that expansion is almost completely limited by only the imagination..

Where? DAK? Hardly huge. Animal Kingdom has at best 200yds either side before slipping (or sinking) into Reedy or Boggy with any large development. North is the tree farm (surely they don`t want to move. Again.) and south is the parking lot - hardly reserved. DAKs best bet is a flattened BK plot, the pad next to E:E, or the unused safari plot north of Kali...

With respect :wave:

 

[nutcop312]

One thing is for sure....

A close friend of mine is a retired police capt. and is very high up in the WDW security dept and he says in no way is any kind of mountain going where 20,000 leagues was because it will take away from the castle view down main street. He says there are a lot of 'ideas' and stuff even proposed but were cancelled. As busy as the parks are there is still a shortage of money and the MK needs a serious refurb prior to any big projects there. HE told me that they are very interested in the latest in hi-tech security equipment as they realize that they are a potential target and any kind of act will be totally devastating and would have ramifications in all parks globally and pretty much are giving the security team carte blanch.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

A close friend of mine is a retired police capt. and is very high up in the WDW security dept and he says in no way is any kind of mountain going where 20,000 leagues was because it will take away from the castle view down main street. He says there are a lot of 'ideas' and stuff even proposed but were cancelled. As busy as the parks are there is still a shortage of money and the MK needs a serious refurb prior to any big projects there. HE told me that they are very interested in the latest in hi-tech security equipment as they realize that they are a potential target and any kind of act will be totally devastating and would have ramifications in all parks globally and pretty much are giving the security team carte blanch.

Yeah right, night watchmen are always in the know.

 

[Champion]

You said alot that was correct. There is no evidence, however, to support that.

There is evidence to refute it, actually. How could another park give another 10m visitors when two of the parks have never seen that many, and a third was just getting back to 10m in 06?

A close friend of mine is a retired police capt. and is very high up in the WDW security dept and he says in no way is any kind of mountain going where 20,000 leagues was because it will take away from the castle view down main street. He says there are a lot of 'ideas' and stuff even proposed but were cancelled. As busy as the parks are there is still a shortage of money and the MK needs a serious refurb prior to any big projects there. HE told me that they are very interested in the latest in hi-tech security equipment as they realize that they are a potential target and any kind of act will be totally devastating and would have ramifications in all parks globally and pretty much are giving the security team carte blanch.

AHHAHHAHAHHAH. You're kidding, right?

Do you know how poor WDW security is? Do you know the kinds of things that go through the gates every day? More than you can imagine.
You cannot possibly make an argument that WDW is giving security carte blanc or that they are focused on high tech security when they haven't even installed metal detectors.

WDW's security plan is the same as most places in this country, and the world. Give the illusion of security. Make people FEEL secure, and you're fine.
If someone wanted to attack WDW at any place, they'd have no problem carrying it out. Hotels, parks, whatever. They would not have an issue doing it.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[cb3k]

Something about "Fire Mountain" (the name) seems so tacky to me. I realize there are "space" and "splash" and those two are simple names as well, but Fire Mountain seems cliche' and trite, not to mention I do not feel that a Jules Verne (if they themed it in that sense) attraction would excite the masses. I am all for Villain Mountain/Bald Mountain....Make it HAPPEN!