EPCOT – the park that lost its optimism

[VT GAL]

This is something I have been pondering since my return to 'reality'...

While I absolutely agree that the feelings of optimism that EPCOT Center evoked are noticeably absent for me in EPCOT, I believe it is a case of a change in audience. Children now live in a different world of information and environment than most of us here did when we were their age. They are surrounded by less than possitive news of impending gloom and have had to deal with a lot more (ie September 11) than we had to at their age. I feel like a little optimism could go a long way, but that is usually seen as being 'cheesey' and somewhat unrealistic.

Has it been dumbed/watered down? IMO yes it has, but I think that on some levels this is WDI trying to be what they consider as realistic in regards to what people are ready/willing to take in, understand, and walk away with. However I would challenge them to do the opposite and return to their old ways in hopes of changing peoples perspective through an appreciation of where we have come from coupled with an optimism of where we are going together in the future.

I am hopeful that we will see a return to these values at WDI throughout the parks, because I would love to get just a piece of that back to share with my DD and DH. That optimism was pretty powerful, and while it can be found in several sparkling places currently I feel like there is always room for more!

I am sorry if my opinions have offended in any way. I will now step down from my soapbox, thank you for listening/reading!!!

Shelley

 

[cpeterstx]

It is ironic that a park that is themed to look toward the future has people complaining that it has not remained as it was in the past.

I want to make sure I'm clear in my position. I am not in favor of freezing Epcot in time. I love adding the new stuff and keeping it current. You have to do that or you'll fail as a park dedicated to the future. I am simply wanting that same spirit and feel that it had back in the first years.

An Bravo to VT_Gal for your post above.

 

[One Lil Spark]

This is something I have been pondering since my return to 'reality'...

While I absolutely agree that the feelings of optimism that EPCOT Center evoked are noticeably absent for me in EPCOT, I believe it is a case of a change in audience. Children now live in a different world of information and environment than most of us here did when we were their age. They are surrounded by less than possitive news of impending gloom and have had to deal with a lot more (ie September 11) than we had to at their age. I feel like a little optimism could go a long way, but that is usually seen as being 'cheesey' and somewhat unrealistic.

Has it been dumbed/watered down? IMO yes it has, but I think that on some levels this is WDI trying to be what they consider as realistic in regards to what people are ready/willing to take in, understand, and walk away with. However I would challenge them to do the opposite and return to their old ways in hopes of changing peoples perspective through an appreciation of where we have come from coupled with an optimism of where we are going together in the future.

I am hopeful that we will see a return to these values at WDI throughout the parks, because I would love to get just a piece of that back to share with my DD and DH. That optimism was pretty powerful, and while it can be found in several sparkling places currently I feel like there is always room for more!

I am sorry if my opinions have offended in any way. I will now step down from my soapbox, thank you for listening/reading!!!
Shelley

No need to apologize in any way. I too hope to share the feelings that EPCOT Center stirred in me with my children when I have them.

 

[mcjaco]

I think we're confusing optimism with forward thinking. EPCOT has lost it's vision of the future, not it's optimism.

I still love it. It's not what it was during it's first decade, but I too believe that the SSE rehab has shown a direction that makes me believe that some sees the light, so to speak. Either that, or Siemens is single handedly one of the greatest sponsors ever.

 

[gettingsmaller]

First, let me say that Epcot was my favorite park in the 80's, and it probably is still my favorite park (but likely due in large part to my early experience there).

I DO think Epcot has lost its way in many respects... Just think about the two parts of Epcot: "World Showcase" and "Future World". how many things actually invoke a vision of the FUTURE in "FUTURE WORLD"?
Soarin' - one of my favorite attractions at WDW--no emphasis on "future".
Living with the Land - some future.
Test Track - I like it, but it's all about now, not the future
The Seas - at least it used to FEEL like you were going into the future. Now, no future.
JIYI - well, okay, this was always about imagination. I'll give it a pass, but--still--no future.
SE - have yet to ride it. I'll assume a future.
Universe of Energy - eh... okay.. it's been several years since I've ridden, I think there's some talk about future energy.
Mission Space - future, but no real inspiration or 'vision'

So, out of this "Future World", there are maybe 2 rides that "transport" you to the future (SE, M:S)--something that the older Epcot did more consistently (SE, WoM, Horizons, The Living Seas, Life Pavilion)--and one ride (Living with the Land) that really informs and inspires.

Now, some of the "feel" problem may have to do with familiarity and the passage of time. All of these things were brand new at one point--where else would a whole theater move, as in UoE? Who else had so many great animatronics--and they were practically new technology (or at least pretty rare?).
These days, moving a theater is 20 years old, Six Flags has some animatronics (still not as good, from what I've seen), and many guests have seen all of the technology 100s of times on TV and other places.
In many ways, WDW is no longer "cutting edge"--and even when it is, it is more of an unseen thing (all the 'back-room' stuff that goes into Test Track, for example).
So, I think Epcot has a few problems:
1) the 'feel' of having suddenly stepped into the future is greatly diminished. Some lost because technology is more a part of our lives and some because Disney hasn't stepped up the presentation.
2) the "inform and inspire" is gone. Largely replaced by "thrill and show characters"
3) "Future World" barely addresses the future, and an OPTIMISTIC future is absent in all but one or two rides.

I'm not in favor of WDW being a museum, but I would (if I were running Epcot) make this idea of an inspirational vision of the future and the transportation of the guest TO that future an integral part of the park. For me, that's what the old EPCOT was about. Now, it is turning into "just another" world-class theme park... Personally, I think it would be harder to compete as a 'theme park' than as a 'trip into the future'. You can go to great theme parks all over the country. How many are dedicated to taking you 10, 50, 100 years into the future?

 

[ClemsonTigger]

As you can tell from some of the posts, this topic has been tossed around here a time or two, carried down more than it's hare of ratholes and ultimately been beaten to death.

With that said, it is a valid point, and one you have presented in an interesting way.

My short answer is probably yes, but with that it remains a reflection on our society....having lost it's optimism.

I've loved Epcot from my first visit in its opening year as a wonderful reincarnation of the '64 Worlds Fair [yes I'm that old...] The difference in the challenge Epcot now faces (and is shared by Tomorrowland to a lesser degree) is the future has become a target moving too quickly.

By the time you start to build any hard structure, exhibit or show, it is probably obsolete or dated from the original plans. If not by then, by the time it's finished. It's become too hard to look to the possibilities of the future with awe. When Epcot opened, who could have even thought that at it's 25th anniversary that people would be walking around with "D ick Tracy" phones on their wrists that you could talk, view and link to computers (I would say internet, but that wasn't even a concept either)?

So the original (well secondary) thought of having an evolving technology forward environment had to be rethought...and I think rightfully so. The presentation that was futuristic in '64, was quaint in the early 80's. I remember well the many many comments of how boring Epcot was at the time.

With all of that, Epcot has evolved. It is now able to attract more and more people (who don't know or care of it's history). So you now get to explore the aquatic themes after visiting with Nemo instead of a hydrolator....you are part of auto testing instead of reviewing the history of transportation, get to visit the diversity of California as well as the agriculture of the world.

Epcot is telling the same story, it's just been translated into todays terms.
...and maybe optimism is part of that...

 

[Krack2]

I always felt that the foundation of EPCOT Center (as opposed to what we have now) was - history lesson (which need not change often), followed by a look at the future (which has to be updated constantly). In other words, Future World was Disney's Smithsonian Institute. Several different museums situated around a beautiful open park - each with their own educational focus. People often refer to EPCOT as an adult park, but I was 8 years old in 1984 (my first visit) and it's my favorite park.

EPCOT Center lost it's way. I, like most Disney fanatics, blame the bean counters who never really understood what made the core-concept work. They let Wonders of Life become a moselium. The started sticking Disney characters anywhere they could, regardless of the pavilion's themeing (Nemo doesn't belong in EPCOT Center, imo - I know others disagree). Flavor of the month celebrities in videos that are meant to last a decade (Ellen, the Science Guy). They were never willing to pony up the cash to update the "here's what to look forward to in the future" area of each pavilion (as they has so obviously been designed to constantly updated with the lastest information/technology/trends/innovations). If a sponsor wouldn't come up with cash, then the pavilion was allowed to sit and stagnate.

But I've also come to blame WDI too. When did cluttered pin wheels become "futuristic"? Why did they allow the degradation of the themeing? The classic theme songs from each ride (the original EPCOT Center music is some of the best music Disney has ever produced), the individual pavilion symbols, the minimalist beauty of each pavilion's architecture (as opposed to the cluttered mess Test Track is - one is a classic style, the other looked outdated 10 minutes after it was finished), even the names themselves ("Test Track" instead of "The World of Motion" - one sounds like a museum and the other one sounds like an unfinished ride - which I suppose is the point, but it's a shame - I think a lot of goodwill gets lost on a simple change like this). Even things that are universally regarded as improvements have issues with themeing (for example, shouldn't Soaring be in the "Motion" pavilion? Isn't the The Land a pavilion about agriculture and food?).

I want EPCOT Center back so badly. Is there anybody at WDI that understands the orginal concept?

 

[SirGoofy]

Before I get into this, I want to say I loved EPCOT Center with all my heart, and I love the current Epcot.

But EPCOT/Epcot was doomed for failure from the beginning. It was an attempt to bring about one of Walt's greatest visions, while completely changing that vision. They wanted to build a park that would be a showcase for the future and future technologies that would always be changing. How did they ever expect to keep up with this? The last version of Spaceship Earth is a great example. By the time it was rehabbed, the descent was fairly dated.

And the edu-tainment? Another failed concept. Yes, there will be the few that can enjoy learning an having fun, but as unfortunate as it is, most people don't. People want to go to a theme park for fun, and to be honest, Epcot was really never a huge amount of fun. I loved it, but the majority of my friends go to Epcot for 4 things. Test Track, Mission Space, Soaring, and drinking/eating around the world.

In all honesty, as much as I hate to say it, EPCOT should never have been built.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Sorry, but I go to Epcot to be entertained, I have many other sources to educate and inform me. Perhaps the lack of optimism is a reflection of society as a whole.

Nope its just a theme park

 

[tirian]

Before I get into this, I want to say I loved EPCOT Center with all my heart, and I love the current Epcot.

But EPCOT/Epcot was doomed for failure from the beginning. It was an attempt to bring about one of Walt's greatest visions, while completely changing that vision. They wanted to build a park that would be a showcase for the future and future technologies that would always be changing. How did they ever expect to keep up with this? The last version of Spaceship Earth is a great example. By the time it was rehabbed, the descent was fairly dated.

And the edu-tainment? Another failed concept. Yes, there will be the few that can enjoy learning an having fun, but as unfortunate as it is, most people don't. People want to go to a theme park for fun, and to be honest, Epcot was really never a huge amount of fun. I loved it, but the majority of my friends go to Epcot for 4 things. Test Track, Mission Space, Soaring, and drinking/eating around the world.

In all honesty, as much as I hate to say it, EPCOT should never have been built.

I don't agree but I understand where you're coming from.

Epcot is about discovering the magic of the real world—in nature, technology, and culture. It's a permanent World's Fair. As such, I think it generally succeeds, even though it has been through major problems in the last decade.

Krack2 hit the nail on the head: the people who tried to update the park didn't get it. The "architectural accents" added to TT, Innoventions, and SSE (the WAND) were based on current trends of the mid–late nineties instead of fitting into the park's postmodern style. Frankly, I think one of the best things for FW East would be to remove that ugly canopy in front TT. It doesn't look industrial or tech-savvy anymore; it just looks like a temporary concert venue for a state fair.

But I do agree with WDI that something had to be done. I miss Horizons and WoM too, but EPCOT Center was LOADED with slow-moving omnimovers. When I was a kid, I often confused memories of different attractions because they all melded together as the same ride in my mind. The early attractions were well done but lacked variety IMO. Of course, I think the best solution would have been to add to the existing pavilions, not replace them outright.

Too bad the "solutions" reeked of 1990s temporary tech cheesiness and lame attempts to add magic to everything (the cardboard wand).

Final thought: If Disney can't even get corporate sponsors to consistently finance the theme park Epcot, how would the city E.P.C.O.T. have worked after Walt died?

 

[Club Cooloholic]

When I think about my memories of Epcot, today and past trips, I still remember the things I learned.

Call me crazy, but I rode Test Track, Soarin, and Mission Space all for the first time this past trip, as I had not been there in quite awhile. Those rides were great, but when you say epcot to me what is the first thing that jumps to mind..what what do I remember? Spaceship Earth and how we might live in the future, the the Living off the Land boat trip and how amazing it is to grow different plants in different soils (or non for the hydroponics) and a tin toy exhibition in Japan, that was just toys on dispay, but really cool and informative.

 

[tirian]

Sorry, but I go to Epcot to be entertained, I have many other sources to educate and inform me. Perhaps the lack of optimism is a reflection of society as a whole.

Nope its just a theme park

It is a theme park, but that's no reason to lose sight of its purpose. Epcot does have a higher goal than the other Disney parks, and it finally has a president who understands that.

Frankly, I don't go to Epcot to be educated either. I've got college and the Internet (ha, ha) for that. IMO, Epcot needs to completely shift its focus to the "wonders of the real world," and let people accidentally learn something. The problem with the current mix of attractions is that they're generally either complete fluff (TLS w/Nemo) or overhanded education (Circle of Life). SSE is still the best mix of discovery and thematic experiences, and it has a kindergarten script!

p.s. Its two greatest losses were Horizons and the original Imagination, because they were the only retired attractions that gave Epcot a purpose. M:S and TT would have fit in perfectly if Horizons had remained, because it summarized all the pavilions.

EDIT: And I think it's still optimistic.

 

[Dragonrider1227]

I think it's a sign of the times. EPCOT as a park is not as optimistic about the future because frankly, I don't think people in general are as optimistic in the future and this feeling leaks into the new attractions being built for it

 

[Since1976]

The idea that technology will be the savior of mankind sort of fell out of favor in the last couple of decades. With people thinking about the environment and nature, the sprawling future city concepts that were so attractive to us years ago just don't fit into the picture.

Epcot just needs some retooling so that it's focus on technology jives with the issues that really matter to people today.

To give you an idea of how things have changed, look at this line from Walt Disney's original Carousel of Progress: "Progress is the sound of a motor, the hum of a turbine, the heartbeat of a factory..."

These are things we all depend on to this day, but nobody would agree that these processes are all good for the planet (pollution anyone?). But they were great and important leaps for mankind back then.

 

[montyz81]

I know this topic has been discussed before but after spending some time watching videos of original EPCOT attractions, I felt compelled to write this.

I first went to EPCOT Center in late October 1983. I was 12 years old at the time and loved all things technology, so to me, EPCOT Center was a dream park!

I can vividly remember Horizons (which was brand new!), Imagination, Horizons, the original Universe of Energy, World of Motion and Spaceship Earth. On later visits when I was older, I can remember all of the other attractions like the Land boat ride, etc.

What I remember, more than anything else, is the feeling of optimism and the encouragement of forward thinking in all aspects of our techno-lives. All of the attractions encouraged and inspired using our minds and our shared values to create the opportunity for a better life for all. Songs like New Horizons (If we can Dream it), Tomorrow’s Child, Imagination!, Golden Dreams, and Listen the Land all exemplified this spirit.

To further bolster my point, I encourage you to take a look at this 9 minute video souvenir of EPCOT Center: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kygFzmrIroA

Now, I am NOT advocating that we should tear down Test Track, Mission: Space, etc. I am not for rebuilding Horizons and World of Motions, etc. However, I AM for reintroducing the spirit of ingenuity and discovery back into the park. I don’t claim to know how this can be done but I am fearful that the Epcot of today is becoming just another theme park, albeit a world class Disney production, but not the inspirational park that I so clearly remember as that optimistic 12-year old. I have had friends of mine tell me that the world has changed too much for all of that “sappy optimism”. I disagree.

What do you guys think? Am I just too unrealistic?

This is by far the best post I have read to date on this board. This puts in words my exact feelings about Epcot Center. The only difference is that I believe a reintroduction of Horizons or World of Motion can be achieved in some form in some part of the park. I agree that Epcot feels as though it has been dumbed down in resent years. Very nice post!

 

[Dragonrider1227]

The idea that technology will be the savior of mankind sort of fell out of favor in the last couple of decades. With people thinking about the environment and nature, the sprawling future city concepts that were so attractive to us years ago just don't fit into the picture.

Epcot just needs some retooling so that it's focus on technology jives with the issues that really matter to people today.

To give you an idea of how things have changed, look at this line from Walt Disney's original Carousel of Progress: "Progress is the sound of a motor, the hum of a turbine, the heartbeat of a factory..."

These are things we all depend on to this day, but nobody would agree that these processes are all good for the planet (pollution anyone?). But they were great and important leaps for mankind back then.

I could totally see EPCOT promoting the "going green" thing. But not just as a fad. As a way of re-thinking life

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I think we're confusing optimism with forward thinking. EPCOT has lost it's vision of the future, not it's optimism.

I still love it. It's not what it was during it's first decade, but I too believe that the SSE rehab has shown a direction that makes me believe that some sees the light, so to speak. Either that, or Siemens is single handedly one of the greatest sponsors ever.

Honestly...I think it has lost both.There is VERY little Future in Future World...It's now billed as "Discovery".

*waits to see if anyone brings that up*

I always felt that the foundation of EPCOT Center (as opposed to what we have now) was - history lesson (which need not change often), followed by a look at the future (which has to be updated constantly). In other words, Future World was Disney's Smithsonian Institute. Several different museums situated around a beautiful open park - each with their own educational focus. People often refer to EPCOT as an adult park, but I was 8 years old in 1984 (my first visit) and it's my favorite park.

EPCOT Center lost it's way. I, like most Disney fanatics, blame the bean counters who never really understood what made the core-concept work. They let Wonders of Life become a moselium. The started sticking Disney characters anywhere they could, regardless of the pavilion's themeing (Nemo doesn't belong in EPCOT Center, imo - I know others disagree). Flavor of the month celebrities in videos that are meant to last a decade (Ellen, the Science Guy). They were never willing to pony up the cash to update the "here's what to look forward to in the future" area of each pavilion (as they has so obviously been designed to constantly updated with the lastest information/technology/trends/innovations). If a sponsor wouldn't come up with cash, then the pavilion was allowed to sit and stagnate.

But I've also come to blame WDI too. When did cluttered pin wheels become "futuristic"? Why did they allow the degradation of the themeing? The classic theme songs from each ride (the original EPCOT Center music is some of the best music Disney has ever produced), the individual pavilion symbols, the minimalist beauty of each pavilion's architecture (as opposed to the cluttered mess Test Track is - one is a classic style, the other looked outdated 10 minutes after it was finished), even the names themselves ("Test Track" instead of "The World of Motion" - one sounds like a museum and the other one sounds like an unfinished ride - which I suppose is the point, but it's a shame - I think a lot of goodwill gets lost on a simple change like this). Even things that are universally regarded as improvements have issues with themeing (for example, shouldn't Soaring be in the "Motion" pavilion? Isn't the The Land a pavilion about agriculture and food?).

I want EPCOT Center back so badly. Is there anybody at WDI that understands the orginal concept?

YES!

YOU GET IT PERFECTLY!
:sohappy:

Before I get into this, I want to say I loved EPCOT Center with all my heart, and I love the current Epcot.

But EPCOT/Epcot was doomed for failure from the beginning. It was an attempt to bring about one of Walt's greatest visions, while completely changing that vision. They wanted to build a park that would be a showcase for the future and future technologies that would always be changing. How did they ever expect to keep up with this? The last version of Spaceship Earth is a great example. By the time it was rehabbed, the descent was fairly dated.

And the edu-tainment? Another failed concept. Yes, there will be the few that can enjoy learning an having fun, but as unfortunate as it is, most people don't. People want to go to a theme park for fun, and to be honest, Epcot was really never a huge amount of fun. I loved it, but the majority of my friends go to Epcot for 4 things. Test Track, Mission Space, Soaring, and drinking/eating around the world.

In all honesty, as much as I hate to say it, EPCOT should never have been built.

You need more optimism.:lookaroun:lol::lol:

I don't think EC failed...I think it was abandoned.

 

[Figment632]

Here we go...


So...I think we are at annother cross roads in EPCOT History.(We stand on the brink of a new rennisance)...It seems we are leaving the "Entertainment for entertainment's sake" era(2001-2007-Wand) and slowly returning to an EPCOT 94 like Park.

And that's just fine with me.

I agree with this I think in the late 90's with some of the original attractions starting to age and the opening of Islands of Adventure Disney kind of painiced and tried to put some thrill rides in to compete ex. Mission space and test track.

I do think that the park is at a crossroad once again and they have an oppurtunity to make a step in the right direction with the wonder of life pavilion. They should start over here and if they wont to stick with that theme, it just needs to be improved with modern medical advancements. Or they could just have a totaly new theme. They have the land and the seas why not do a tribute to smpace travel. I know they a ready have misson space but this would be different. It could be set up as a space station or a future colony on an alien planet. Something like this could work but disney has a annoying trend that everything has to tie in to a movie (Mexico, The Seas). I think this tribute to space travel theme could work.

 

[SirGoofy]

You need more optimism.:lookaroun:lol::lol:

I don't think EC failed...I think it was abandoned.

Nope, sorry it failed. People didn't like it, and that's why it changed. I know people who were there opening day, and they all say they asked their parents, "Can we go to Magic Kingdom?" after about two hours in the park.

Everyone can hope, beg, and wish as much as they want, but EPCOT Center will never come back. The general public found it boring. Plain and simple. And as much as I hate to say it, they were right. I loved it as a kid, but if EPCOT was still around today it would have incredibly low attendance records.

Could some of the attractions do a better job of educating? Yea. Test Track could go more indepth, along with Mission Space. But it's a theme park people. Fun>education when it comes to theme parks. If it was the other way around the Smithsonian would be the world's most popular vacation destination.

 

[SirGoofy]

I do think that the park is at a crossroad once again and they have an oppurtunity to make a step in the right direction with the wonder of life pavilion. They should start over here and if they wont to stick with that theme, it just needs to be improved with modern medical advancements. Or they could just have a totaly new theme. They have the land and the seas why not do a tribute to smpace travel. I know they a ready have misson space but this would be different. It could be set up as a space station or a future colony on an alien planet. Something like this could work but disney has a annoying trend that everything has to tie in to a movie (Mexico, The Seas). I think this tribute to space travel theme could work.

Yea, that's what the MS pavilion was originally going to be. Before the budget cuts. See what happens with the budget cuts? I've seen the concept art, and it was fantastic.

But WOL is honestly a horribly designed building. If they want to build something there, knock down and build up. The roof leaks like a siv in some places.