Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

You quit because of Pressler?

Not really, not because of that decision. At the time, (1999) the WDI culture was not headed in a direction that interested me, so I was not being challenged in a way that would be satisfying long term. Leaving to "push the envelope" of storytelling in areas like the internet and "media as architecture" (ABC Times Square studios was my project, a digital video facade) seemed like the right areas to grow into. Leaving was tough, but in order to grow my career creatively, I had to break away, assured that WDI would always be there. That's all.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Inbetweens

As you probably know, "Inbetween" is a term used in animation. they are the the gradual drawings between the big extreme poses the animator draws. They complete the action but make up the subtle, intermediate steps. The "extremes" would be jerky without them, but the inbetweens make the character lifelike.

In the parks, that term refers to the little details in a land that do the same. For example, the party line conversations on the telephones in the market house add life to main street. The little things you encounter that make a land come to life "inbetween" the big rides and shows.

What are your favorite "inbetweens" and what land could use them?

Maybe we can see some first time posters to the thread with their suggestions?

 

[Buried20KLeague]

As you probably know, "Inbetween" is a term used in animation. they are the the gradual drawings between the big extreme poses the animator draws. They complete the action but make up the subtle, intermediate steps. The "extremes" would be jerky without them, but the inbetweens make the character lifelike.

In the parks, that term refers to the little details in a land that do the same. For example, the party line conversations on the telephones in the market house add life to main street. The little things you encounter that make a land come to life "inbetween" the big rides and shows.

What are your favorite "inbetweens" and what land could use them?

Maybe we can see some first time posters to the thread with their suggestions?

Ooooh. I've got one. From DLP.

As you walk from the front gate, and walk through the left "arcade", you come upon a path to the left (way before the hub) that is kind of the back way into Frontierland. It dumps out right near Phantom Manor.

Anyway... The first time we walked down this walkway, I was frustrated because our baby was sleeping in the stroller, and the wood walkway was so darn rough.

About half way down the path, I realized that was done on PURPOSE... To make it very obvious to you that you were leaving Main Street, and heading into the rough, unfinished Frontierland. Of COURSE the walkway was going to be uneven and rough! :lol:

A walkway between two lands that carries a message like that? I'd call that an "in-between".

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Ooooh. I've got one. From DLP.

As you walk from the front gate, and walk through the left "arcade", you come upon a path to the left (way before the hub) that is kind of the back way into Frontierland. It dumps out right near Phantom Manor.

Anyway... The first time we walked down this walkway, I was frustrated because our baby was sleeping in the stroller, and the wood walkway was so darn rough.

About half way down the path, I realized that was done on PURPOSE... To make it very obvious to you that you were leaving Main Street, and heading into the rough, unfinished Frontierland. Of COURSE the walkway was going to be uneven and rough! :lol:

A walkway between two lands that carries a message like that? I'd call that an "in-between".

Great observation 20K. I never even noticed that! Details send story messages, that's for sure. And in a transition. Any more? Inbetweens are also classified as something that may be a show element that you could not market, guests enjoy it for a moment...it's just free and it's there. Like the Snow White Wishing Well.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I'm trying to think of one for EPCOT...but the only thematic difference I can visualize is the change in music...Would that work? Does for me?

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Great observation 20K. I never even noticed that! Details send story messages, that's for sure. And in a transition. Any more? Inbetweens are also classified as something that may be a show element that you could not market, guests enjoy it for a moment...it's just free and it's there. Like the Snow White Wishing Well.

And easy one would be tink in the keyhole of the dresser in the shop in FL at WDW... We always love taking first timers to that one.

Now I'll let somebody else play. :lol:

 

[WDWFigment]

It's interesting hearing about all of the accolades your restaurant is receiving. I know for many of us here, picking your brain is the closest we'll come to interacting with a celebrity (you may be no Miley Cyrus, but personally, I'd rather know an intellectual celebrity than a...well, I'm not exactly sure how to categorize her). I know it's just another feather in your cap, but it makes me feel as if you're taking time out of a busy creative schedule to engage with us, rather than just having some fun reminiscing with fans. I know I am probably articulating this in a horrible manner, but believe me, I mean it as the utmost compliment. Anyway, enough gushing...

Not really, not because of that decision. At the time, (1999) the WDI culture was not headed in a direction that interested me, so I was not being challenged in a way that would be satisfying long term. Leaving to "push the envelope" of storytelling in areas like the internet and "media as architecture" (ABC Times Square studios was my project, a digital video facade) seemed like the right areas to grow into. Leaving was tough, but in order to grow my career creatively, I had to break away, assured that WDI would always be there. That's all.

Hearing the inside scope and the behind-the-scenes politics is always fun, and I know you're not going to go into detail about this type of thing, but speaking from a fan's perspective, I'd love to see you land back at WDI--or an outside consulting firm--for a project or two. Reading your thoughts, ambitions, etc., in this thread makes it abundantly clear to me that you still have that zeal for the things that make Disney great.

As you probably know, "Inbetween" is a term used in animation. they are the the gradual drawings between the big extreme poses the animator draws. They complete the action but make up the subtle, intermediate steps. The "extremes" would be jerky without them, but the inbetweens make the character lifelike.

In the parks, that term refers to the little details in a land that do the same. For example, the party line conversations on the telephones in the market house add life to main street. The little things you encounter that make a land come to life "inbetween" the big rides and shows.

What are your favorite "inbetweens" and what land could use them?

Maybe we can see some first time posters to the thread with their suggestions?

I think one of the biggest areas lacking an inbetween, and this is bantied about here often, is the walkway between Tomorrowland and Fantasyland in WDW. While I think more could certainly be done here, I don't think there is a stark division between the two lands that really clashes. There may be a lacking of some sort of facades to make a hard or structural cut between the lands, but I think there is a gradual transition accomplished, not through details in the inbetween, but through vegation and a general lack of dominant theming. I think you would have a difficult time gradually transitioning the lands into one another through inbetweens. Perhaps reasonable minds could differ on that.

As to where they're accomplished well. That seems a bit harder to pinpoint precisely because the natural consequence of the inbetween being accomplished well is people not 'seeing it' or thinking about it. I know there are good examples all over the place, and if I were there, I'm sure I could think of something. Right now I'm just drawing a blank.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'm trying to think of one for EPCOT...but the only thematic difference I can visualize is the change in music...Would that work? Does for me?

The fiberoptic pavement in communicore?

 

[RandySavage]

And easy one would be tink in the keyhole of the dresser in the shop in FL at WDW... We always love taking first timers to that one.

Never knew about that. Good to know.

Defining "inbetweens" not only as land-to-land transition details but any little things that exist for the sole purpose of surprise and delight... three immediately come to mind because they were pointlessly removed by management:

-Animal Kingdom: The secret path from Africa to Asia with stepping stones.

-Magic Kingdom: The elk, moose and bison heads in the Mile Long Bar that would come to life at random and sing songs.

-Magic Kingdom: Barker parrot outside pirates.

Others that still exist:

-DLP: The animated giraffe head in Adventureland shop.

-DLP: The changing portraits in Toad Hall.

-MGM: Singing in the Rain umbrella.

-MGM: New animated Pixar lamp.

 

[WDW1974]

The Xanadu Hotel was this "hearst castle" meets "Pickfair" of a palace based on the old hollywood movie moguls and their lux lifestyle.

Was this in place of the idea of the Hollywood Tower being a 'real' hotel for guests? And did that idea ever go beyond blue sky?

SFC was practically a go, when TDS went way over budget and they got nervous and pulled our yen to use over there. What was left built Pooh's Hunny Hunt ride and Queen of Hearts Restaurant.

While Sci-Fi would have certainly been an interesting concept, it's hard to complain with TDS being such an amazing creation ... and Hunny Hunt and Queen of Hearts aren't exactly chopped liver either.

Cybermyd was Rockin Rollercoaster's track plan inside a digital Pyramid jutting from an offworld crater. The only glowing shred of a lost civilization. You were shrunk to a "byte" and beamed through the towering walls of this gigantic pyramid shaped microchip but are warned as you race down its circuits that it is guarded by a deadly virus. Of course you are detected and chased to a confrontation with the glowing virus. Explosions ensue and you survive. Soundtrack multiple on board audio like Uni's new coaster. (this was 10 years ago) Think Crystal Method meets Stargate. We had several other pretty SF shows as well. One with UFO's and the other with Aliens. Too bad Universal Singapore is using the name SciFi City in their park. Space Pirates?

It's always sounded like a cool concept, but one many purists would have found too out there for Disney ... strangely enough with the Marvel characters in Disney's stable, there may be more of that.

What do you think about UNI-Singapore? I hope to be there for the opening and it really looks like a top quality effort ... and not so much a copy of the other parks at all.

 

[WDW1974]

Things have gotten better from a year ago... EDL seems to be making some effort to fix up some of these details that have been ignored for a time.

Things look better at DLP with each visit ... the only thing that made me want to scream last month was Peter Pan's queue, which was covered in graffiti that had been piling up for months.

Attractions were universally in top show quality.

 

[WDW1974]

Wow. I did not know that Valerie was let go. If I may just jettison off for a moment.

I met Valerie at Flower Street when I did the Adventures By Disney Backstage Magic tour. It was the dress rehearsal tour, and we were the first group of guests to go through Imagineering like this, and it was one of the most amazing experiences. The Imagineer giving us the tour was a writer named Mark, I believe. Anyway, our first stop was the sculpture room, and waiting to greet us was Valerie herself. As the biggest Disney fan on the tour, I recognized her. As I walked through the display cases she would explain anything up there, and would go into greater detail when she did the sculpture herself. She is an absolute treasure and I hope she continues to use her amazing artistic talents in incredible ways.

There's another thread on Valerie (and Tim Delaney) as Eddie requested the WDI politics discussion take place elsewhere.

But yes, she was incredibly talented and Disney is lesser for not having her today.

Good thing Disney didn't get rid of her before her D23 presentations ... or Obama work!

 

[WDW1974]

Not really, not because of that decision. At the time, (1999) the WDI culture was not headed in a direction that interested me, so I was not being challenged in a way that would be satisfying long term. Leaving to "push the envelope" of storytelling in areas like the internet and "media as architecture" (ABC Times Square studios was my project, a digital video facade) seemed like the right areas to grow into. Leaving was tough, but in order to grow my career creatively, I had to break away, assured that WDI would always be there. That's all.

Really? I had heard Disney wanted you to stay in Japan and work on Mermaid Lagoon, but your family was 'growing' at the time and you weren't keen on that. Isn't that how David became lead over that project?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Really? I had heard Disney wanted you to stay in Japan and work on Mermaid Lagoon, but your family was 'growing' at the time and you weren't keen on that. Isn't that how David became lead over that project?

True. I already had the whole TDL portfolio and was getting antsy to stop travelling as my family was growing. I did not any more projects. Then Marty asked me to get involved in Mermaid and again that was in Japan and so I turned it down. As I recall, Mermaid had serious team "mutiny" issues, so that is probably why he asked me to lead for a while as on Indy. Nothing to do with my ultimately leaving the company though.

 

[WDW1974]

True. I already had the whole TDL portfolio and was getting antsy to stop travelling as my family was growing. did not any more projects. Then Marty asked me to get involved in Mermaid and again that was in Japan and so I turned it down. As I recall, Mermaid had serious team "mutiny" issues, so that is probably why he asked me to lead for a while as on Indy. Nothing to do with my ultimately leaving the company though.

What I thought. At least Mermaid turned out wonderfully (can't wait to actually experience it) as all of TDS did.

It would be nice to see WDI tackle a project of that scale again, but I'm not holding my breath.

And I think Disney is going to be very quiet on Shanghai until the final agreement is reached since they've had so many difficulties in negotiating everything over there. I've heard the project will be more DLP in terms of scope/quality than HKDL ... but, call me greedy, I'd like to see them reaching for new heights much like DLP and TDS did.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

... it makes me feel as if you're taking time out of a busy creative schedule to engage with us, rather than just having some fun reminiscing with fans

Thanks for the kind words. I do have a very busy schedule and it's getting busier, but I enjoy the interaction too as like you, I'm still a fan and always will be.

When I was a young "Disneytologist", there was only one other kid to discuss this stuff with and no internet or home video, no ebay to find relics, no class on the subject, not even a WDI book. You pretty much took pictures, went once a year, had a map and guidebooks, maybe Marty's Disneyland book and a few E tickets. Disneyland was too new to even be collected yet. It was really tough to be a fan back then. I called WED and said "I have an idea for a ride" and they said "anything you can think of we've thought of so don't call again". I wished that I could have met an Imagineer back then and be inspired, and one day I did and that changed everything.

So when I finally got into WDI, I never forgot the phone call, and thought that I don't want to be that kind of Imagineer, as being a fan was a great part of growing up for me. Build up, don't tear down. I never want to get so jaded about the place that I forget those sleepless nights before you went to the park, or looking at the map and planning what to go on first before you got in the car. Or how your parents always seem to eat slower when you want to run off and go on some rides. The smell of spent fireworks just before you go home.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Was this in place of the idea of the Hollywood Tower being a 'real' hotel for guests? And did that idea ever go beyond blue sky?

No, it was located separate, near the main entrance. The "Haunted hotel" idea dragged out for a pretty long time, I think they were talking to Mel Brooks about it, but since I wasn't assigned to it, I don't know much more.

It's always sounded like a cool concept, but one many purists would have found too out there for Disney ... strangely enough with the Marvel characters in Disney's stable, there may be more of that.

If you can accept "Adventure thru Inner Space", you could accept "Cybermid" in that both shows were about shrinking you down and having an adventure in another world and bringing you back. At least that's what we thought. We had this big digitizer gun that has the coaster train inside and it disappears as the train is launched into the pyramid. You could see this from the outside. The ride was more of a music and light show with effects. I think these things are usually judged more by how well they are executed than the story alone. If it's done really well and is really fun even in spite of the story, it will work. You still may be right, as I've given up predicting the purists long ago!

Have not ck'ed out Universal over there. I was not wowed by the Madagascar ride when it was in development but that was long ago.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Never knew about that. Good to know.

Defining "inbetweens" not only as land-to-land transition details but any little things that exist for the sole purpose of surprise and delight... three immediately come to mind because they were pointlessly removed by management:

-Animal Kingdom: The secret path from Africa to Asia with stepping stones.

-Magic Kingdom: The elk, moose and bison heads in the Mile Long Bar that would come to life at random and sing songs.

-Magic Kingdom: Barker parrot outside pirates.

Others that still exist:


-DLP: The animated giraffe head in Adventureland shop.

-DLP: The changing portraits in Toad Hall.

-MGM: Singing in the Rain umbrella.

-MGM: New animated Pixar lamp.

Awesome. Exactly...Well done and lots of them too. Good definition of "Inbetween" with surprise and delight. Here's a brief article about DLP Main Street, what the first day at WEd felt like, and those "Inbetweens" and how Disneyland inspired them.

http://yesterland.com/sotto1.html

 

[RandySavage]

^ That was a good read. And you are right on the money. "God is in the details." Whether it be an attraction, restaurant, shop, a land, or a park as a whole, it is the cumulative effect of the little things (of which we are often barely aware) that shape a great experience.

For what it's worth, I think your work puts you in the elite group of Second Generation Imagineering Legends (along with Baxter, Morris, Rohde, Delaney and others) who delivered on same level as the First Generation legends.

With the loss of a lot of 'inbetweens' over the last 15 years (i.e., Penny Arcade, Magic Shop, land-specific unique merchandise, marketing HKDL's Liki Tikis as an attraction instead of leaving it as a surprise to be discovered, etc., etc.), I've grown seriously concerned about the diminishing quality of the parks.

I hope the Pixar lamp signals that someone high up in Parks & Resorts understands that these little, unadvertised things can have a huge effect on the guest experience.

As a kid, the small details like the leapfrog fountains at EPCOT's Imagination were among my favorite/most memorable experiences.

 

[_Scar]

Eddie, what do you know about that Madagascar ride? Did exImagineers design USS?


I was disappointed in the Shrek area and Madagascar, but the Egypt area, and the Jurassic Park area looked awesome!

I love their take on a river rapid Jurassic Park ride. I can only wonder how they'd pull out a large drop with a raft, if that's even possible.