Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[WDW1974]

Ignoring the political reference in the post (why do you do that?), I am interested in the other changes that were "destroyed".

The reference was meant as a joke, not a major talking point. Most WDW are notoriously conservative (even the ones in 'non-traditional' relationships) ... so I was making light of the fact that I very much doubt any of them helped Obama win his historic post

I'm not very familiar with that area of the park (with the exception of Mike Fink's Kneelboats) or the changes over the years.

Well, you mentioned the only 'attraction' that was closed, but they also lost the Admiral Joe Fowler in a drydock accident ... the renamed Richard F. Irvine (now Liberty Belle) no longer does night cruises to save that huge labor expense ... but beyond that they got rid of the Fife and Drum Corps that always gave the area a truly Colonial vibe.

The day is rapidly escaping me and this deserves a more thorough response, but I'll also add that Olde World Antiques, Mlle. Lafayette's Parmumerie and Silversmith shops all closed in the mid-late 90s and were turned into one giant Disney character Christmas shop because you (like me I'm sure) immediately think of Pooh stockings, Tink treetoppers and Dumbo ornaments when you think of the American Revolution, the Declaration of Independence and John Adams!

In addition, the Keel Boat Shoppe (used to have great magic items!) was boarded up too.

The two remaining shops Heritage House and Yankee Trader were WalMarted greatly and for the most part the former now sells cheap American items and characters in red, white and blue garb while Trader (ostensibly still sponsored by Smuckers) is almost entirely character crap.

I could also toss in the fact they dumbed down LTT by making dinner a character meal, which now precludes me from dining there.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

They used to be a much deeper, more textured/layered ... nuanced experience ... they aren't anymore. The stories WDI is trying to tell get lost when someone runs for a Space Mountain FP, jumps on Buzz, runs across the park to get a Splash FP, runs back because their 'window' opened on Space etc ... there's no need for Main Street to be anything but a giant outlet mall with facades

Precisely. Because for some, the process of consuming the experience has become the experience!

As you point out, a park's details and it's continuity do erode over time and that richness slowly gets blunted with layers of paint, wider walkways, merchandise carts, and rehabs until no one knows what the story was in the first place. Eventually you have your mall. SQS has the thankless job of trying to keep the story torch lit and it's really challenging.

 

[SirGoofy]

Well, you mentioned the only 'attraction' that was closed, but they also lost the Admiral Joe Fowler in a drydock accident ... the renamed Richard F. Irvine (now Liberty Belle) no longer does night cruises to save that huge labor expense ... but beyond that they got rid of the Fife and Drum Corps that always gave the area a truly Colonial vibe.

It's funny...because the boat only takes like 4 CMs to run it.

 

[jt04]

The reference was meant as a joke, not a major talking point. Most WDW are notoriously conservative (even the ones in 'non-traditional' relationships) ... so I was making light of the fact that I very much doubt any of them helped Obama win his historic post

Nobody claimed they did, not even close. Another 74 tangent.



Well, you mentioned the only 'attraction' that was closed, but they also lost the Admiral Joe Fowler in a drydock accident ... the renamed Richard F. Irvine (now Liberty Belle) no longer does night cruises to save that huge labor expense ... but beyond that they got rid of the Fife and Drum Corps that always gave the area a truly Colonial vibe.

http://land.allears.net/blogs/debwills/2009/06/spirit_of_america_fife_and_dru.html

The day is rapidly escaping me and this deserves a more thorough response, but I'll also add that Olde World Antiques, Mlle. Lafayette's Parmumerie and Silversmith shops all closed in the mid-late 90s and were turned into one giant Disney character Christmas shop because you (like me I'm sure) immediately think of Pooh stockings, Tink treetoppers and Dumbo ornaments when you think of the American Revolution, the Declaration of Independence and John Adams!

In addition, the Keel Boat Shoppe (used to have great magic items!) was boarded up too.

The two remaining shops Heritage House and Yankee Trader were WalMarted greatly and for the most part the former now sells cheap American items and characters in red, white and blue garb while Trader (ostensibly still sponsored by Smuckers) is almost entirely character crap.

I could also toss in the fact they dumbed down LTT by making dinner a character meal, which now precludes me from dining there.

...

 

[jt04]

It's funny...because the boat only takes like 4 CMs to run it.

My guess is it has more to do with the lifespan of the hardware (boiler) and that it had few riders at night. Possibly safety concerns too.

It's not just to save on 4 CM's pay.

 

[SirGoofy]

It's not just to save on 4 CM's pay.

I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[jakeman]

The reference was meant as a joke, not a major talking point. Most WDW are notoriously conservative (even the ones in 'non-traditional' relationships) ... so I was making light of the fact that I very much doubt any of them helped Obama win his historic post

Ah gotcha. Man you need to ask someone for some help in using the smileys! :ROFLOL:

Well, you mentioned the only 'attraction' that was closed, but they also lost the Admiral Joe Fowler in a drydock accident ... the renamed Richard F. Irvine (now Liberty Belle) no longer does night cruises to save that huge labor expense ... but beyond that they got rid of the Fife and Drum Corps that always gave the area a truly Colonial vibe.

The day is rapidly escaping me and this deserves a more thorough response, but I'll also add that Olde World Antiques, Mlle. Lafayette's Parmumerie and Silversmith shops all closed in the mid-late 90s and were turned into one giant Disney character Christmas shop because you (like me I'm sure) immediately think of Pooh stockings, Tink treetoppers and Dumbo ornaments when you think of the American Revolution, the Declaration of Independence and John Adams!

In addition, the Keel Boat Shoppe (used to have great magic items!) was boarded up too.

The two remaining shops Heritage House and Yankee Trader were WalMarted greatly and for the most part the former now sells cheap American items and characters in red, white and blue garb while Trader (ostensibly still sponsored by Smuckers) is almost entirely character crap.

I could also toss in the fact they dumbed down LTT by making dinner a character meal, which now precludes me from dining there.

Ah, I see where you are going, I was thinking only attractions.

I definitely agree regarding the merchandise in that area and all over the resort. That had started in earnest in 1999 when I worked there. I saw Star Wars merchandise in DAK when I was just there. Nothing says endangered species like an Ewok!

I thought they got rid of the character dining at LTT?

 

[WDW1974]

I love your insults. There so bad they are good. :hammer:

JT ... I'm not playing back and forth with you.

You made up a quote and referenced another thread where Steve did insult me (stalking much are we?) He may own the site, but I don't think he has the right to insult anyone even if it appears he'd rather have posters like you here than me.

I never said I know more than anyone regarding China, but I do understand how to work there and how business is conducted and Disney has done a woeful job of things.

I stood by years ago in Paris and watched the then DLP Prez pat the Mayor of Shanghai (he was heading a group visiting for ideas for his city) on the back in a patronizing manner that you'd expect of a used Buick salesman in the hicks. It didn't go over well and set the tone for a disasterous visit. One that put the project back months (if not years) and could have been fatal. ... Disney's negotiators have failed to understand the cultural divide and the do's and don't's ... it's why they issues with getting Pirates released there ... or why they can't get the government to crackdown on knock-off consumer products. Disney goes in guns blaring like the US Military in Iraq and it just doesn't work with the Chinese. Again, that's a fact. You are so out of your league here it isn't even funny.

But again, I'm pretty certain that just like WDW wants your type of guest more than mine, I think this site wants your type of poster. Either way, it doesn't speak very well.

 

[jt04]

Ah gotcha. Man you need to ask someone for some help in using the smileys! :ROFLOL:

Ah, I see where you are going, I was thinking only attractions.

I definitely agree regarding the merchandise in that area and all over the resort. That had started in earnest in 1999 when I worked there. I saw Star Wars merchandise in DAK when I was just there. Nothing says endangered species like an Ewok!

I thought they got rid of the character dining at LTT?

I'm not picking a fight here but can someone explain the merchandise/shopping obsession on these threads? Somtimes I think it is more important to people than the attractions. I've just never associated the fun of an amusement park with buying overpriced trinkets. :shrug:

 

[jt04]

JT ... I'm not playing back and forth with you.

You made up a quote and referenced another thread where Steve did insult me (stalking much are we?) He may own the site, but I don't think he has the right to insult anyone even if it appears he'd rather have posters like you here than me.

I never said I know more than anyone regarding China, but I do understand how to work there and how business is conducted and Disney has done a woeful job of things.

I stood by years ago in Paris and watched the then DLP Prez pat the Mayor of Shanghai (he was heading a group visiting for ideas for his city) on the back in a patronizing manner that you'd expect of a used Buick salesman in the hicks. It didn't go over well and set the tone for a disasterous visit. One that put the project back months (if not years) and could have been fatal. ... Disney's negotiators have failed to understand the cultural divide and the do's and don't's ... it's why they issues with getting Pirates released there ... or why they can't get the government to crackdown on knock-off consumer products. Disney goes in guns blaring like the US Military in Iraq and it just doesn't work with the Chinese. Again, that's a fact. You are so out of your league here it isn't even funny.

But again, I'm pretty certain that just like WDW wants your type of guest more than mine, I think this site wants your type of poster. Either way, it doesn't speak very well.

I'm outta my league huh? Man you are pompous! I did not make up a quote. Those are your words. You just spout so much trash talk you can't keep track. Your not being "stalked", I was here long before you. I just make sure to read what you write because your "spin" needs to be challanged by someone.

 

[Missing20K]

I'm not picking a fight here but can someone explain the merchandise/shopping obsession on these threads? Somtimes I think it is more important to people than the attractions. I've just never associated the fun of an amusement park with buying overpriced trinkets. :shrug:

Personally speaking, I feel in the past, few items fell under the umbrella of overpriced trinkets. They were unique products that were rare and hard to find at home, or presented certain aspects of the vacation.

Wow, and you of all people. Amusement parks??? This is Disney, not Six Flags. I think the term you were looking for was "theme park."

At a theme park I enjoy the atmosphere that well-themed and placed shops add to a theme park. Walking into a blacksmith or old sewing shop in LS, or seeing toy guns, and cowboy hats in frontierland, just makes sense, adds to the overall feeling of the area, and immerses one in the experience. It attempts to suspend disbelief far better than Hannah Montana merchandise in Tomorrowland.

 

[WDW1974]

Precisely. Because for some, the process of consuming the experience has become the experience!

You nailed it.

And it all goes back to marketing. It's a 'I visit WDW, I own DVC, I purchase whatever Disney sells me' so I'm a better person. It's all about bathing folks in pixie dust so that they can see nothing but the DISNEY MAGIC! And again, I'm not talking about the real stuff that guys at WDI or guys in FA or Studios create ... I'm talking about that smarmy pre-packaged marketing over substance hype that gets people to believe that WDW is timeshares, pinlanyards and character meals.

People may consume it, but I gag on it.

As you point out, a park's details and it's continuity do erode over time and that richness slowly gets blunted with layers of paint, wider walkways, merchandise carts, and rehabs until no one knows what the story was in the first place. Eventually you have your mall. SQS has the thankless job of trying to keep the story torch lit and it's really challenging.

Exactly. It's great that Mansion got some TLC. And it appears that HoP followed. But attractions are only a piece of the story ... maybe the most exciting ... if it were a dinner, they'd be the entree. But I don't know about most folks, but I like a well balanced meal.

When you trash so many of the details, you blur the story. In some cases to where it is almost (and what just happened to Michael Jackson?!) unrecognizable ... there's no narrative anymore, just assorted items.

I've been pushing hard to find out how SQS can justify what has gone down with MK's Main Street ... how having a World of Disney run the length of the west side of the street with meaningless facades somehow conveys Turn of the Century America and not Disney Outlet SuperStore.

 

[jt04]

Personally speaking, I feel in the past, few items fell under the umbrella of overpriced trinkets. They were unique products that were rare and hard to find at home, or presented certain aspects of the vacation.

Wow, and you of all people. Amusement parks??? This is Disney, not Six Flags. I think the term you were looking for was "theme park."

At a theme park I enjoy the atmosphere that well-themed and placed shops add to a theme park. Walking into a blacksmith or old sewing shop, or seeing toy guns, and cowboy hats in frontierland, just makes sense, adds to the overall feeling of the area, and immerses one in the experience. It attempts to suspend disbelief far better than Hannah Montana merchandise in Tomorrowland.

Is it possible that by having unique items it made it much more common for "guests" to walk out and forget to "pay"? But if it is common and cheap stuff, shop lifting is not such a loss. That is just what I always assumed accounted for the unique stuff disappearing.

 

[WDW1974]

Ah gotcha. Man you need to ask someone for some help in using the smileys! :ROFLOL:

Nah. I hate them. And I'm used to posting on a site that doesn't have them and people can generally tell by the poster and how the statement comes off as to whether it is tongue in cheek ... either way, no biggee.

Ah, I see where you are going, I was thinking only attractions.

I definitely agree regarding the merchandise in that area and all over the resort. That had started in earnest in 1999 when I worked there. I saw Star Wars merchandise in DAK when I was just there. Nothing says endangered species like an Ewok!

That is bad. Haven't seen it, but not surprising. They just don't care. I'm fairly certain that the folks at the top don't even get how merchandise is part of the show.

I thought they got rid of the character dining at LTT?

They did. They just kept the all you can eat and higher price points.
Either way, I dine at LTT for lunch but it used to be a nice place for a dinner and now it isn't.

 

[jakeman]

I'm not picking a fight here but can someone explain the merchandise/shopping obsession on these threads? Somtimes I think it is more important to people than the attractions. I've just never associated the fun of an amusement park with buying overpriced trinkets. :shrug:

I think it is the fact that they are now overpriced trinkets.

The merchandise was another layer of the theming. Main Street stuff was on Main Street, spacey stuff was in TL. Now is it quite literally the same thing everywhere.

I'll go back to my original point about Star Wars stuff at DAK or even worse Hannah Montana.

It's not more important, but it is a very noticable break in the suspension of disbelief of where you are supposed to be in the "World". I'm not advocating a complete reversal of merchandise, just space it better.

Personally speaking, I feel in the past, few items fell under the umbrella of overpriced trinkets. They were unique products that were rare and hard to find at home, or presented certain aspects of the vacation.

Wow, and you of all people. Amusement parks??? This is Disney, not Six Flags. I think the term you were looking for was "theme park."

At a theme park I enjoy the atmosphere that well-themed and placed shops add to a theme park. Walking into a blacksmith or old sewing shop in LS, or seeing toy guns, and cowboy hats in frontierland, just makes sense, adds to the overall feeling of the area, and immerses one in the experience. It attempts to suspend disbelief far better than Hannah Montana merchandise in Tomorrowland.

Or I could have just quoted this.

Is it possible that by having unique items it made it much more common for "guests" to walk out and forget to "pay"? But if it is common and cheap stuff, shop lifting is not such a loss. That is just what I always assumed accounted for the unique stuff disappearing.

I can't imagine that would be the case for everything.

If you want to see how a shop used to be head to Mombasa Marketplace in DAK. It is an excellent mix of unique offerings and some standard Disney merchandise that fits the theme of the area. I don't even mind that the same things can be found in DAK Lodge, because they fit.

 

[WDW1974]

I'm outta my league huh? Man you are pompous! I did not make up a quote. Those are your words. You just spout so much trash talk you can't keep track. Your not being "stalked", I was here long before you. I just make sure to read what you write because your "spin" needs to be challanged by someone.

Yeah, JT, with me you are so out of your league.

And, sorry, my mistake. Apparently you have nothing to do but pull my quotes from other threads into this one. If you'd like to discuss that quote, post it in the right thread.

And, yes, you do stalk me here. You look for my posts and attack me instead of what I write, you misrepresent my views and you bring me up in discussion I am not a part of. You've called me names. You've demanded I tell the MAGICAL community who I am in the real world and you've basically pulled whatever *&it you can to take the attention away from what I actually write.

Also, I am not spinning anything. I post what I know to be fact and I offer opinions based on reason.

Go have a magical night! (and let's be clear exactly which way I mean it!)

 

[CBOMB]

I'm not picking a fight here but can someone explain the merchandise/shopping obsession on these threads? Somtimes I think it is more important to people than the attractions. I've just never associated the fun of an amusement park with buying overpriced trinkets. :shrug:

It should always be about maintaining the show. It's all about themeing, and projecting that feeling that you are in distinctly different lands as you circle the hub. As you very well know, that's why the utilidors were built, and at a very hefty price. Keep the Disney illusion going from Land to Land.

I know I would prefer going into uniquely themed shops that fit the surrounding enviroment, rather than walking into strip mall USA.

 

[jt04]

Yeah, JT, with me you are so out of your league.

That is a baseless assumption. But that is what you are best at.

 

[jt04]

It should always be about maintaining the show. It's all about themeing, and projecting that feeling that you are in distinctly different lands as you circle the hub. As you very well know, that's why the utilidors were built, and at a very hefty price. Keep the Disney illusion going from Land to Land.

I know I would prefer going into uniquely themed shops that fit the surrounding enviroment, rather than walking into strip mall USA.

I'd prefer they were more attractions than shops. Like the Penny Arcade of yore. All the shops should go in my mind. But I'm based in reality.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

All the shops should go in my mind. But I'm based in reality.

We have doctors and men in white coats to help you get out of your "reality".