Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

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KevinYee

Well-Known Member
Speaking of your past, Eddie, my first thought on hearing that the Seven Dwarfs Mine Coaster cars would sway was that the sensation might be somewhat like the Wacky Soap Box Racers. Those didn't sway, I know, but there was something rickety and dangerous about them (maybe it was just my memory of that from childhood, though), and "rickety and dangerous" is how I'm guessing the mine coaster will move.
 

KevinYee

Well-Known Member
Too soon to tell, but I have seen other projects that have a bigger sense of "wow" to them. I know that is not their goal here, but "wow" is a necessary component IMHO. It seems like Health food to me.

That's perfect! Masdar really is like health food - necessary and maybe even good for us, but no "wow" factor.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Speaking of your past, Eddie, my first thought on hearing that the Seven Dwarfs Mine Coaster cars would sway was that the sensation might be somewhat like the Wacky Soap Box Racers. Those didn't sway, I know, but there was something rickety and dangerous about them (maybe it was just my memory of that from childhood, though), and "rickety and dangerous" is how I'm guessing the mine coaster will move.

You're right, they didn't sway but there was enough free play in them side to side to give you impression you had some "english" in making them go faster from your leaning. The "rickety" part was from that as they had a high center of gravity over a single tube rail, this made them "chatter" a bit on the curves. It was a pretty rough little ride. The arm clearances were not generous as I recall, so they seemed a bit dangerous.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
That's perfect! Masdar really is like health food - necessary and maybe even good for us, but no "wow" factor.

At least WDW in the 70's did the right thing and used it for our immediate benefit, in fact enhancing our way of life by demonstration. The Disney ideal of sparkling cleanliness was enhanced by the pneumatic trash system, or electric monorails took us around without the traffic and right into the hotel. These innovations were exponentially demonstrated by having them do something fantastic as well as being efficient. Perhaps progress is best embraced when it's results are measured in pleasure? The Eiffel Tower was not just an engineering feat, it offered an unmatchable view. Hoover Dam does not just make power, it's a wow in it's construction. If you're gonna do a desalination plant, add a few fountains!
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Epic mickey Wii.

What do you think of Epic Mickey? Theme park applications for Oswald? Should it be a part of the new F'land? WDW's version of RR Cartoon Spin?
 

T-1MILLION

New Member
What do you think of Epic Mickey? Theme park applications for Oswald? Should it be a part of the new F'land? WDW's version of RR Cartoon Spin?

I like the RR CARTOONspin kind of concept. Any dark ride concept is always appreciated by me.

Since any sort of Toonwtown/toontownfair is gone from MK, the studios is where I would of liked to see this in my humble opinion.

I think Hollywood studios would make it easier to swallow for me thematically too. Since Oswald is most commnly seen still in Black and White, even by Disney with the DCA recently. I would like to see him in that style represented at DHS. Sort of the EARLY hollywood, before Walt was DISNEY and just a young guy starting a studio and all of a sudden a hit series of cartoon shorts with his character Oswald.

Also, Epic Mickey. AWESOME game for the Disney enthusiast. Finished it.
 

Mansion Butler

Active Member
What do you think of Epic Mickey? Theme park applications for Oswald? Should it be a part of the new F'land? WDW's version of RR Cartoon Spin?
It's one of my favorite games ever at this point. I'm a sucker for platformers and exploration, and it does both pretty well. Then it gives me an incredible setting and different ways to play with them. I just love all the little bits and pieces I recognize from the parks and the creative ways they're recreated and connected. I could talk about the game all day (though I haven't beaten it).

The camera is frustrating at times, but not nearly enough to ruin the game for me as others have suggested. And I actually think the platforming mechanics are great, I'm not completely certain why those get such an attack. I mean, it's not quite Mario-caliber, but not many platformers are.

Every minute I'm playing it, I have something to geek out about. Some little detail that someone who spends every day in the parks just finds familiar and amazing. I just love it so much. It's to the point of overwhelming my brain, and I can't quite put it down to a page any better than "I love it."
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I like the RR CARTOONspin kind of concept. Any dark ride concept is always appreciated by me.

Since any sort of Toonwtown/toontownfair is gone from MK, the studios is where I would of liked to see this in my humble opinion.

I think Hollywood studios would make it easier to swallow for me thematically too. Since Oswald is most commnly seen still in Black and White, even by Disney with the DCA recently. I would like to see him in that style represented at DHS. Sort of the EARLY hollywood, before Walt was DISNEY and just a young guy starting a studio and all of a sudden a hit series of cartoon shorts with his character Oswald.

Also, Epic Mickey. AWESOME game for the Disney enthusiast. Finished it.

DHS seems like the right fit.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Marc Davis and story.

I just cracked open my copy of Volume 10 "Walt's People", a collection of interviews. In reading Marc Davis' interview about his conversations with Walt, he mentions that he and Walt discussed "telling stories" in the rides and says

"Walt knew that we were not telling stories. You know, he and I discussed it many times. He said very definitely "You can't tell a story in this medium".

An interesting bit of the book.
http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=93030
 

T-1MILLION

New Member
I just cracked open my copy of Volume 10 "Walt's People", a collection of interviews. In reading Marc Davis' interview about his conversations with Walt, he mentions that he and Walt discussed "telling stories" in the rides and says

"Walt knew that we were not telling stories. You know, he and I discussed it many times. He said very definitely "You can't tell a story in this medium".

An interesting bit of the book.
http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=93030

That is pretty funny considering how almost 100 percent of the time with PR we hear "Our Imagineers tell stories"

Very interesting find. Thanks for the link!
 
Well that quote's got me jumping onto Amazon to get a copy of the book!

I think the topic of Story in theme park attractions is difficult because the word can be used in so many different ways. I'd essentially break it down into three facets:

BACKSTORY - The fictional explanation of how an attraction came to be. Imagineering seems to use this definition when it discusses the 'story' behind Prince Charming Regal Carrousel (he had the contraption built to practice jousting) or attractions like California Screamin' which don't have anything actually happen on them narratively.

STORY PREMISE - I'd think this is the 'old school' definition of story within Imagineering. Essentially its a set-up: "what if you explored a haunted house", "what if you sailed with pirates in the Caribbean". No explicit narrative is communicated but an environment, theme and atmosphere is created, peppered with events, moments and vignettes that populate the world. A specific narrative is open to translation by the audience.

STORYLINE - This is the modern definition of story used by Imagineering, which seems to have come directly from Eisner's background in film. It's a movie style plot of explicitly connected building moments. Nothing is really open to interpretation because everything is communicated and linked cinematically. Every audience member receives the same experience. Generally these attractions can be slotted into a story structure, most popularly "...And something goes terribly wrong".

(I would certainly say that it's a sliding scale between the three. How many events needed to be added to / removed from Space Mountain for it to switch between backstory and premise for example).

The best example of two and three I think is the Haunted Mansion (DL/WDW) vs. Phantom Manor (DLP). In the first, we are the main character; it is about our experience as we tour this haunted house stumbling across events (the seance, the party, the hitchhiking ghosts) that impact on us, even remotely. In the Phantom Manor however, it's no longer our story but the story of Melanie, the bride. As we move through the house we are given pieces of the puzzle that reveal her story. We're not peeking at 'A' ghostly ball (which we can claim as OUR ghostly ball), it is HER ghostly ball. This switch from internal/implicit story to external/explicit story was particularly damned by Marc Davis.

Now I'm one of many who thinks the third has vastly dominated the second in the past two decades, but I do think the third has a place in the theme park even though so many fans berate it. Because of that I wouldn't jump on Walt's quote as proof of anything other than how open 'story' is to interpretation.

Maybe Walt meant story as in film and literature; the introduction of characters, their internal and external struggles, their dialoguing, their adventure and so on, which of course is vastly unsuited to the theme park. We know that Marc detested the third style, but I'm not convinced we can use 'Walt's authority' to write it off. Star Tours, Muppets and Splash are all examples of effective attractions that use the third definition of story, Splash particularly - we are ENTIRELY external to the story, passive observers following it along, the emotions we feel (other than the non-diegetic anticipation of the big drop) being essentially mimetic. Really - why on earth is this log we're floating in disconnectedly following the story of Brer Rabbit; do we feel part of the story other than sharing the plunge Brer Rabbit endures to escape; how much better is this than just watching the film*? But it's still popular.

I'd be interested in hearing, Eddie, which story styles you think your own attractions take on?

* Assuming the DVD was released!
 

Mansion Butler

Active Member
Well that quote's got me jumping onto Amazon to get a copy of the book!

I think the topic of Story in theme park attractions is difficult because the word can be used in so many different ways. I'd essentially break it down into three facets:
Thank you for writing what I was thinking so I don't have to! :)

And undoubtedly much better.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
That is pretty funny considering how almost 100 percent of the time with PR we here "Our Imagineers tell stories"

Very interesting find. Thanks for the link!

Especially since the defense against the guy suing Disney for stealing POTC movie story depends on the fact that the ride allegedly had that same "supernatural story" as it's basis. If Marc Davis says the ride has no story who wins? Go figure. A little word worth alot of cash.

http://disneylawsuit.com/
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
Story is an interesting question for the parks, which I cover briefly in my blog (Shameless plug).

You can see a distinction from the older attractions vs. the newer ones in implied story vs actual story. I think Splash Mountain vs. Big Thunder Mountain is a good example of the difference. While Big Thunder wasn't designed in Walt's era, it wasn't very long after and the outcome represents that I believe.

What does merely entering the Hollywood Tower Hotel explain about a story before you hear one word from Rod Serling? Examples like that are useful in thinking about what constitues a storyline/background.
 
Mulling it over, I'm not entirely sure I agree with the view that Pirates doesn't have story. It seems story is defined as a narrated sequence of interconnected events often comprising one or more of: themes, motives & plot lines; narrative structure (beginning-middle-end, exposition-development-climax-resolution-denouement), characters (protagonist, antagonist, supporting characters), and narration or message (the moral of the story).

Main Street, U.S.A. certainly isn't a story because it has no sequence of moments: it doesn't matter whether you go to the station first, the bakery first, the opera house first - there is no building narration, there is no beginning or end.

But let's look at Pirates. Pirates' scenes break down into:

1. A 19th century Lousiana bayou.
2. Abandoned (cursed) pirate caves.
3. A pirate ship bombarding a town.
4. Pirates looting then setting fire to the town.
5. Pirates inside a burning fort (prison/powder room).
6. A 19th century Lousiana bayou.

Whether or not this is a story seems to rely on whether there is a causal relationship between these elements, and I'd say there was. 1 and 6 need to bookend the experience otherwise it would be about travelling to Lousiana, so they're locked in place, while 3, 4 and 5 seem to chronologically follow on from one to the other. (Yes these scenes could be inverted so that we started in a burning powder room, then found out this was because the town is burning, then found out it's burning because the town is being pillaged, then found out its being pillaged because a ship has attacked it, but this is simply an alternate plotting of the same story). Only the pirate caves seem malleable in where they're located, and tellingly this is the only section that HAS been moved around, at Disneyland Paris's version of the ride.

Now, does this story structure support a building narrative structure of beginning, middle and end? I'd say yes: Pirates very skillfully weaves through an introduction (as above: 1), first act (2), inciting incident (3), second act (4), third act finale (5) and denouement (6), building layer upon layer, teasing at things to come. If it had no story, surely it wouldn't matter what order we viewed the scenes in, but Pirates is very carefully built so that the powder room tops the burning town in tension and thrill, the burning town tops the looting of the town in tension and spectacle, and so on back through the attraction.

Within this framework is of the 'business' of what is going on - the skits, the gags, the stunts, and the characters that populate them, which are essentially random - each one is individual of itself, and that was of course the way Marc designed them. Nevertheless, just because it's a lot of disconnected moments doesn't mean it doesn't have a story. I'd actually say Pirates was very similar to Alice's Adventures in Wonderland: that book is essentially a number of disconnected events/moments, but that doesn't mean it's not a story. Pirates is the same, only whereas Carroll's book uses Alice to guide us through, in Pirates we are the central character (directed by the designer using the ride track).

It could be said that Pirates is not a character based story, but I think that misses out that YOU the guest are that weaving character. Even if this is rejected, I still think it's an event based story - despite the fact that guests do find it so hard to articulate the causal-relationships of what happens.

As for the final element of story, I think ironically Eddie (seen as you profess to there not being a story!), your own decision of including the moral at the end of the ride actually lends more credence to the attraction having a story, fulfilling the 'narration or message (the moral of the story)'. By doing so, the attraction was repositioned from 'that's just how it is' happenstance to being a authored text that the creators feel the need to justify: you added purpose to why it has been told, in doing so admitting that it has been told.

There may not be much to it, but I think it's not that Pirates doesn't have a story, it's just that it's a different STYLE of story. Remember how much difficulty Walt had in turning Alice's Adventures in Wonderland into a film because of it's story structure? It seems that story structure is exactly the type that works so well in theme park rides.
 

T-1MILLION

New Member
I find it also depends on when Walt saying that. I am not trying to get into defending any lawsuits or anything like that but speaking in more of how rides became designed.

I think it also depends on the context. A deep story? Probably not too much, but many attractions have had and retell story elements.

I am just thinking a lot of it could of been due to the time period as well. The industry and medium has come along way and it is now much easier to tell a story in a themed attraction than it was back in that time.

A lot had changed since the opening days of Disneyland with short fantasyland dark rides with story highlights and tea cup and dumbo like platform rides versus what they started really doing when attractions like Pirates and Mansion came into planning near the end of Walt's life and after.


Just a thought.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
I find it also depends on when Walt saying that. I am not trying to get into defending any lawsuits or anything like that but speaking in more of how rides became designed.

I think it also depends on the context. A deep story? Probably not too much, but many attractions have had and retell story elements.

I am just thinking a lot of it could of been due to the time period as well. The industry and medium has come along way and it is now much easier to tell a story in a themed attraction than it was back in that time.

A lot had changed since the opening days of Disneyland with short fantasyland dark rides with story highlights and tea cup and dumbo like platform rides versus what they started really doing when attractions like Pirates and Mansion came into planning near the end of Walt's life and after.


Just a thought.

I agree, and I think it would also be important to note, if someone knows what the average attraction length (in time) was in the early Disneyland days vs. the later days. Obviously the longer the attraction, the easier it is to tell a cohesive story.

There's also the question about whether your "role" in the attraction is as a viewer or are you a character in the story.

IIRC, the Snow White attraction previously had the guests playing the role of Snow White, since Snow White herself wasn't featured in the ride and too many guests didn't understand it, so they changed it. Someone can probably explain this a bit more than I can.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
I find it also depends on when Walt saying that. I am not trying to get into defending any lawsuits or anything like that but speaking in more of how rides became designed.

I think it also depends on the context. A deep story? Probably not too much, but many attractions have had and retell story elements.

I am just thinking a lot of it could of been due to the time period as well. The industry and medium has come along way and it is now much easier to tell a story in a themed attraction than it was back in that time.

A lot had changed since the opening days of Disneyland with short fantasyland dark rides with story highlights and tea cup and dumbo like platform rides versus what they started really doing when attractions like Pirates and Mansion came into planning near the end of Walt's life and after.


Just a thought.

All good points. I just wanted to stir the pot a bit and spur the discussion. It seems to be working.

The thing is, in the case of movie properties, you are usually familiar with the story already and just reliving the best moments that you would have "chapter searched" on the DVD that were most memorable. Rides are a bit like that too. The funnest part of Mr. Toad is the reckless driving, so that's what you get to do. I have heard that the DL "Finding Nemo" Sub Ride suffers from too much linear story, but I have not been on it.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
I have heard that the DL "Finding Nemo" Sub Ride suffers from too much linear story, but I have not been on it.

That leads me to a question...do you avoid watching videos of attractions online, like newer rides and shows on youtube and the like?

Clearly a case can be made for experiencing the whole attraction because you'll be able to take it all in when you're there in person and a video can miss a lot of things, but I've been guilty of watching some videos of places I won't get to for a while.

I'm also not taking about closed attractions, because the only way we can experience those is by video like what Martin does so well (and that new Horizons CGI coming out)
 
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