Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

Reality bites,unless you're a Yeti

Kevin Yee posts his report pointing out how maintenance gets prioritized between retail and rides. From Yetis to Earthquakes, and in some cases the fix for these things is major and cannot happen overnight. I don't get out to WDW so things like this are news to me. The message I got from this is that designers need to be careful in "pushing the envelope", in that doing so sometimes results in building things that cannot be maintained so you get a broken show. It's tough because you want to take risks and do something fresh and new, but where is the line between breaking new ground and breaking the repair budget?

I do know that closing stores to rehab them has the cost of the business they lose built into the "cost" or scope of the rehab. (The Starbucks across from me was remodeled in about 3 days and they worked day and night. That place is a goldmine.) So does the savings of not having cast members there to man it. Closing Critter Country at DL for rehab may play into that argument. Kevin always has an interesting perspective. Recommend to discuss.

http://miceage.micechat.com/kevinyee/ky020111a.htm

 

[KevinYee]

One aspect I wish I'd remembered to put into the article was to point out that many of the replacement parts needed to fix the rides just can't be bought at the store. Many items are truly unique and have to be machined from scratch, which can cause long delays (maybe this is behind the inert Earthquake scene at Thunder?)

While undoubtedly true, I would hope that they could craft intermediate-term solutions that aren't glaringly bad (again, like Thunder). I always feel so bad when I see something wonderful built by the WDI magicians, only to see it deteriorate when the parks don't do the required maintenance (or worse, don't even walk the rides to see that maintenance needs to be done).

 

[Alektronic]

Kevin Yee posts his report pointing out how maintenance gets prioritized between retail and rides. From Yetis to Earthquakes, and in some cases the fix for these things is major and cannot happen overnight. I don't get out to WDW so things like this are news to me. The message I got from this is that designers need to be careful in "pushing the envelope", in that doing so sometimes results in building things that cannot be maintained so you get a broken show. It's tough because you want to take risks and do something fresh and new, but where is the line between breaking new ground and breaking the repair budget?


http://miceage.micechat.com/kevinyee/ky020111a.htm

At WDW, Attraction maintenance is done by 2 major trades mechanical and electrical. Electrical includes Ride and Show Technicians and Computer Ride and Show Technicians, most of them have attended Disney's Animation training schools. Each attraction is divided by Ride and Show, and Ride Safety is #1 so the show is always behind. The mechanics work on the ride track and ride vehicles.

But, the big issue is staffing, having enough people to do the work, when people retire,move to another job, or quit. They don't get replaced. So everyone ends up working on the ride and doesn't have time for the show. Or having people who really aren't sure what they are doing because they weren't properly trained and send them to work on it anyway.

Take for example, the Yeti, if a part gets replaced that is not the right part or it is not adjusted properly it could add a lot more stress to a particular area or adjusting one part to reduce stress but could actually end causing a lot more stress in a different area.

Basically, it is a maintenance management problem by trying to cut costs and have fewer people do the same work and if you don't have enough people just turn it off and hope most people don't notice.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

But, the big issue is staffing, having enough people to do the work, when people retire,move to another job, or quit. They don't get replaced. So everyone ends up working on the ride and doesn't have time for the show. Or having people who really aren't sure what they are doing because they weren't properly trained and send them to work on it anyway.

It's true that ride safety has and always will be number one, no one disputes that, but if what you allege is true about training and turnover, then mistakes can happen anywhere. That seems culturally dangerous. Do you agree?

 

[T-1MILLION]

It's true that ride safety has and always will be number one, no one disputes that, but if what you allege is true about training and turnover, then mistakes can happen anywhere. That seems culturally dangerous. Do you agree?

Barging in on this I certainly would consider it dangerous. If not for anything major over time 'dangerous' or rather detrimental to the things we are passionate about on this site in particular. Things like Carosuel of Progress and AA heavy attractions such as Pirates of the Caribbean and Great Movie Ride. It is scary for me to think that when the shift to video screens seems to continue we lose the common practice of Animatronics and thus their fixing becomes rare or not as intricate to what these mechanics and systems call for.

I have a bad feeling that slowly over time we see those things dissappearing or altering. I can think of many ride isntances where over time an Animatronic or story device is not as strong due to show neglagence and then when it does get repaired the parts are no longer avalible due to a company involved going out of business or it just seen as not being worth it as an investment.


That is why as much as I love Pushing the Envelope idea it is not wise to base that entirely whether or not the attraction will be a success, because above all else, it has to work.

My very artistic soul seems torn because that kind of progress is what keeps things moving.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Barging in on this I certainly would consider it dangerous. If not for anything major over time 'dangerous' or rather detrimental to the things we are passionate about on this site in particular. Things like Carosuel of Progress and AA heavy attractions such as Pirates of the Caribbean and Great Movie Ride. It is scary for me to think that when the shift to video screens seems to continue we lose the common practice of Animatronics and thus their fixing becomes rare or not as intricate to what these mechanics and systems call for.

I have a bad feeling that slowly over time we see those things dissappearing or altering. I can think of many ride isntances where over time an Animatronic or story device is not as strong due to show neglagence and then when it does get repaired the parts are no longer avalible due to a company involved going out of business or it just seen as not being worth it as an investment.


That is why as much as I love Pushing the Envelope idea it is not wise to base that entirely whether or not the attraction will be a success, because above all else, it has to work.

My very artistic soul seems torn because that kind of progress is what keeps things moving.

Mine is as well.

Your comment reminds me of this rooftop ice machine that was insisted on (despite concerns voiced) for DL's Indy and the engineers were right, it never really worked well, so it was off. The intent was to have "falling debris" in the temple as you entered, and it worked only briefly. That money could have been used elsewhere to greater effect.

The other surprise that was discovered when upgrading POTC years ago was that some of the Pirates had their movements mechanically limited from the original design! For example, the travel distance of the musician's fingers that played the flute was modified to be less dramatic to reduce overall wear. When the modifications were removed, the fingers moved convincingly! No one was told this until it was discovered. Incredible. I believe this had happened in other areas where costume wear was frequent, so the arms, etc were limited to eliminate the more extreme moves. Perhaps an Imagineer approved this then, but we never knew until we found this out. Today the movements have been restored for the most part so this has been corrected, but you see the issue of as Kevin would say, literally "declining by degrees".

It would be interesting to look at the 1967 films of the figures in motion (the Auctioneer has been upgraded and reprogrammed already) and compare them to the movements today.

 

[Alektronic]

It's true that ride safety has and always will be number one, no one disputes that, but if what you allege is true about training and turnover, then mistakes can happen anywhere. That seems culturally dangerous. Do you agree?

Well, it is all about money. They want minimum personnel on hand but they want to try to fix everything. In some departments, they have right mix of crafts and right amount of people and things are maintained properly. But other departments, run things a lot different, for instance, Animal Kingdom, they take care of Dinosaur, Primeval Whirl, Triceratop Spin, Expedition Everest, Kali River Rapids. So there is a lot of mechanical inspections to be done on the rides and so they have a lot of mechanics and not many electrical to work on the ride control and show. So they send mechanics to work on animation or other electrical items and can result in some problems, but not safety issues just show items and lot remain turned off because they weren't repaired properly or had the right parts.

At DLR, the maintenance setup is different, they have a animation shop that just works on AA figures, so everything is repaired and maintained properly. The Sound shop works on audio and ride control issues. The Electrical shop works on electrical items. Mechanics just work on mechanical items on the rides.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Well, it is all about money. They want minimum personnel on hand but they want to try to fix everything. In some departments, they have right mix of crafts and right amount of people and things are maintained properly. But other departments, run things a lot different, for instance, Animal Kingdom, they take care of Dinosaur, Primeval Whirl, Triceratop Spin, Expedition Everest, Kali River Rapids. So there is a lot of mechanical inspections to be done on the rides and so they have a lot of mechanics and not many electrical to work on the ride control and show. So they send mechanics to work on animation or other electrical items and can result in some problems, but not safety issues just show items and lot remain turned off because they weren't repaired properly or had the right parts.

At DLR, the maintenance setup is different, they have a animation shop that just works on AA figures, so everything is repaired and maintained properly. The Sound shop works on audio and ride control issues. The Electrical shop works on electrical items. Mechanics just work on mechanical items on the rides.

Thanks for the insights. It must be next to impossible with a limited crew to be trained on so many shows with so many different demands.

 

[lazyboy97o]

[...] despite there being four theme park at Walt Disney World, my wife is the only WDI show control engineer permanently on staff there.

from Theme Park Design: Behind the Scenes with an Engineer by Steve Alcorn.

 

[will341]

I'm not sure if this is a little off topic but Eddie I was wondering your take on the current amount of Pixar presence in the park. I think something needs to be done about this personally. Being from a generation that grew up on Toy Story. I was 5 when Toy Story came out so I've literally grown up with Andy, Woody, Buzz and all of Pixar. The lack of things Pixar in the parks to me is astonishing. Right now they just have the Buzz shooter, the Monster's Inc. Laugh Floor, and TSMM. All great attractions in my opinion but there is so much potential here. I'm not just talking attractions but even shows. The new Pixar parade is atrocious. Kids now are still growing up with the Disney classics but they are also growing up with these new Pixar characters. The lack of them in the parks to me is kind of weird since that is basically Disney to my now 7 year old cousins. I say disney they think Woody Buzz Jessie etc.

 

[Mansion Butler]

This is the first time I have ever read anyone on a Disney parks message board talk about the lack of Pixar in the parks.

 

[will341]

This is the first time I have ever read anyone on a Disney parks message board talk about the lack of Pixar in the parks.

Do you really think there's to much? Pixar films do what Disney films USED to do and that's bring life into the characters. Disney (before Tangled) hadn't made a good film in a decade (animated) . Pixar made all excellent films throughout the decade. Pixar place is empty. A whole section of the park for 1 attraction? Really? Face it kids now a days see the Pixar characters as the new Disney characters. Their presence in the park, at least in my mind I guess not to everyone's, is lacking. I just use my cousins for example since they're young. I talk about some of the original characters and they have no idea who I'm talking about. They know every Pixar character by sight and some of the characters from Walt Disney Animation they don't know. I've always thought about WDW as experiencing some of the movies and well, I wouldn't see an attraction based around any animated film they made in the 2000's.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'm not sure if this is a little off topic but Eddie I was wondering your take on the current amount of Pixar presence in the park. I think something needs to be done about this personally. Being from a generation that grew up on Toy Story. I was 5 when Toy Story came out so I've literally grown up with Andy, Woody, Buzz and all of Pixar. The lack of things Pixar in the parks to me is astonishing. Right now they just have the Buzz shooter, the Monster's Inc. Laugh Floor, and TSMM. All great attractions in my opinion but there is so much potential here. I'm not just talking attractions but even shows. The new Pixar parade is atrocious. Kids now are still growing up with the Disney classics but they are also growing up with these new Pixar characters. The lack of them in the parks to me is kind of weird since that is basically Disney to my now 7 year old cousins. I say disney they think Woody Buzz Jessie etc.

It is more on topic than some of the things we discuss from time to time, so I'm glad you spoke up.

I did not grow up with the Pixar characters (but like them), so it's truly interesting to hear from someone who was 5 when TS came out (when I was 5 Kennedy was shot). To me, the parks were always about "Classic Disney" characters first and Lucas, Pixar, and other properties second. That's because of how I grew up with Disneyland. To me, it's just the opposite, I want to see what I loved when I was 5, and now there is Pixar suddenly "competing" with that and I'm almost to the point where enough is enough. My memories are different and attached to a past you missed. At DL they have Woody and Jessie in Frontierland in place of the real west. Buzz and Nemo in Tomorrowland in place of futurism, Parades on Main Street, and TSMM and Monsters in DCA with an entire land dedicated to Cars coming soon. You can see that compared to how the lands were, my memories get threatened as they are altering the theme of the lands. Considering the fact that most of this is from just a few films, I began to think it was excessive. A whole land for one movie? Can you believe that? Yet you see the same situation as not nearly enough, which is fine. To me and many others, our loyalty to classic Disney is generational and those memories lock us in as to how we first experienced the parks. Pixar is post Walt.

I'm more interested in your point of view as it may be shared by lots more kids coming up. Disney/Pixar to you, may be Pixar/Disney or all one thing? Is your gripe partly that what is done is not executed well, as you mentioned with the parades? I'm curious as to what you feel is the right balance and how much more Pixar you feel would be needed, just character presence or how far does it go? Since Disney bought Pixar, it's probably good that your cousins see them as Disney.

For example, like other people in my generation that see change, some see the big three TV networks as "television" and the rest of the channels as lesser, "cable" channels. Technically that's not so. That's because before cable, those Networks defined TV with your favorite shows and dominated the air. You loved them for that. Today SciFi and HBO define "television" almost more that CBS, ABC or NBC. The ratings of big networks go down more each year. Younger viewers see it all as just TV and pick SciFi first or Chiller. They define TV on a level playing field and make unfiltered choices. Walt defined Disneyland in my eyes and Pixar represents those new "cable" channels.

That reminds me of how young ones see and decide what "Disney" is to them and what they want. Pixar is making the bigger hits right now, so why would a Dwarf Mine Ride be most interesting to kids? Or worse a Circus with Clowns? Yes, it's all on DVD, but are they a more aspirational premise to kids than racing in a bubble car with the Incredibles? (the trick is where you put rides like that).

If Pixar is truly "Disney" to you, and your memories and emotions are tied to those characters first and foremost, then there probably would never be enough. Let's hear more of your thoughts.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Do you really think there's to much? Pixar films do what Disney films USED to do and that's bring life into the characters. Disney (before Tangled) hadn't made a good film in a decade (animated) . Pixar made all excellent films throughout the decade. Pixar place is empty. A whole section of the park for 1 attraction? Really? Face it kids now a days see the Pixar characters as the new Disney characters. Their presence in the park, at least in my mind I guess not to everyone's, is lacking. I just use my cousins for example since they're young. I talk about some of the original characters and they have no idea who I'm talking about. They know every Pixar character by sight and some of the characters from Walt Disney Animation they don't know. I've always thought about WDW as experiencing some of the movies and well, I wouldn't see an attraction based around any animated film they made in the 2000's.

"They're playing OUR song". Memories are embedded early and you embrace what was popular in your generation and it becomes yours to relive those feelings. We had ours, and Pixar is theirs. If Disney had been making movies at that time that really went deep, they would not need Pixar. But how much? Should they have their own park and is DCA or DHS that park?

 

[Mansion Butler]

Do you really think there's to much?

I think there's too much as in they're in the wrong places. I'm all for putting Pixar in the parks, but I definitely don't think there's too little.

Disney (before Tangled) hadn't made a good film in a decade (animated) .

It seems clear that if we were to discuss The Princess and the Frog, there would be a fight.

Pixar place is empty. A whole section of the park for 1 attraction?

Yeah, I'd love to see Pixar place expanded. They could start by giving it a Finding Nemo omnimover, a Buzz Lightyear shooter, and an interactive Monster's Inc. comedy show! Then Radiator Springs Racers.

At DL they have Woody and Jessie in Frontierland in place of the real west. Buzz and Nemo in Tomorrowland in place of futurism, Parades on Main Street, and TSMM and Monsters in DCA with an entire land dedicated to Cars coming soon.

This is where I am. Now, I don't actually think of Pixar as separate from Disney characters, though I know the Company was separate. I think most guests think of Woody right there with Aladdin, though. My problem is not adding Toy Story characters to the repertoire, or even replacing older characters with Pixar characters. My problem is what you mention: Buzz and Nemo and Monsters Inc. in Tomorrowland, etc.

 

[Mansion Butler]

Should they have their own park and is DCA or DHS that park?[/B]

Since you gave it its own post, I'm giving it its own reply.

Yes, I think the Pixar characters should have a heavy presence, and yes, I think DHS is that park. I'm fine with DHS being part "faux golden Hollywood" and part studios for other properties (front and back kind of thing), as long as they embrace that theme and make it great. Pixar Place I think has a good foundation for that.

I don't like an entire land given to a single property, however, and DCA now has TWO such lands. But DCA is DCA and I don't think it's as big a deal as it would be if they attached something like that to the Magic Kingdom.

 

[T-1MILLION]

Seas with Nemo and Friends Omnimover
Turtle Talk
Finding Nemo: The Musical
Toy Story Mania
Monsters inc laugh Floor
Buzz lightyear Space Ranger Spin
Pixar block party bash(and now another Pixar themed parade)

(clones/similar designs at DLR)
Nemo Subs
Buzz Lightyear
Toy Story Mania
Soon to open Radiator Springs


These are all within the last 15 years of movies that have not really proven the test of being at least 20 years old yet.

It is not just the amount of Pixar attractions that have gone in, but how many so soon.

Pixar Place/Studios was a good idea for an area at Disney's Hollywood Studios park but there is no point in my humble opinion for an entire area when there is at least one Pixar movie based attractionne in th in each park and only one ride (another Toy Story themed shooter of all things) in Pixar Place.

 

[imagineer boy]

Do you really think there's to much? Pixar films do what Disney films USED to do and that's bring life into the characters. Disney (before Tangled) hadn't made a good film in a decade (animated) . Pixar made all excellent films throughout the decade. Pixar place is empty. A whole section of the park for 1 attraction? Really? Face it kids now a days see the Pixar characters as the new Disney characters. Their presence in the park, at least in my mind I guess not to everyone's, is lacking. I just use my cousins for example since they're young. I talk about some of the original characters and they have no idea who I'm talking about. They know every Pixar character by sight and some of the characters from Walt Disney Animation they don't know. I've always thought about WDW as experiencing some of the movies and well, I wouldn't see an attraction based around any animated film they made in the 2000's.

Pixar is great, but their presence in the parks is becoming too overbearing. Even though they are a part of Disney, they are in their own way a seprate entity so it does at times feel a little out of place. Its even worse when they try to cram a Pixar attraction into an area where it clearly doesn't fit (MILF in TL, Nemo at Epcot, Nemo at DL's TL, Bugs at DCA, etc ). I'm okay with them at the parks, but I just don't like it when they're crammed in front of you and the traditional Disney characters are swept off to the side.

I think a perfect example of good Pixar and Disney unity would be TDL's parade which has the perfect integration of Disney and Pixar characters. Rather than just a whole parade dedicated to Pixar characters.

 

[will341]

I did not grow up with the Pixar characters (but like them), so it's truly interesting to hear from someone who was 5 when TS came out (when I was 5 Kennedy was shot). To me, the parks were always about "Classic Disney" characters first and Lucas, Pixar, and other properties second. That's because of how I grew up with Disneyland. To me, it's just the opposite, I want to see what I loved when I was 5, and now there is Pixar suddenly "competing" with that and I'm almost to the point where enough is enough.

That reminds me of how young ones see and decide what "Disney" is to them and what they want. Pixar is making the bigger hits right now, so why would a Dwarf Mine Ride be most interesting to kids? Or worse a Circus with Clowns? Yes, it's all on DVD, but are they a more aspirational premise to kids than racing in a bubble car with the Incredibles? (the trick is where you put rides like that).

If Pixar is truly "Disney" to you, and your memories and emotions are tied to those characters first and foremost, then there probably would never be enough. Let's hear more of your thoughts.

Some of the points you brought up were interesting. I grew up, of course, watching the Disney classics that made me fall in love with everything Disney. But after Lion King that all stopped. None of the characters after that really stuck with me. One of the things I love about WDW is being able to go there and see what I saw growing up and the characters I loved. All the classics are there. They are something I will always use as an inspiration for my studies in film-making. When I was 5 though, Toy Story came out and I had never seen anything like it. I quickly fell in love with Woody and Buzz. Growing up 6 7 8 9 10 I saw all the characters Pixar put out because all Disney characters were incredibly weak (Stitch, Hunchback, Dinosaur for a few). My love for Pixar has nothing against what Walt did with his original films because I love those films to death and without them Pixar wouldn't exist. What I'm saying is, with the amount of classic Disney there is in the parks for those who grew up on it there should be the same for Pixar and I just don't see it. I want to see Flik in the park. I want to see Carl and Russell and Doug. I want to see Nemo Woody Jessie and all the Pixar characters. I want to see a Soarin' type attraction that uses Up as a back drop. I'd love to see dark rides for Pixar like they have with the original classics.

These are NEW classics and I think that it is really tough for people to believe that. I think it's tough for them because they think what Pixar is doing is going to somehow replace the magic that Walt created but it's not. Pixar is just current. If Pixar didn't have good films I wouldn't want their characters in the park. (You don't see me asking for Brother Bear or Chicken Little characters). As far as a park I want to see a bigger presence in DHS. Pixar place is Pixar ride with a little gift shop that is pretty awful to be honest. Pixar should be right with the classics because they are on the same level. Maybe you and many others didn't grow up with them but there's no reason why they shouldn't be there. Cars shouldn't have it's own land in my mind but that's only because that's my least favorite Pixar film. When I'm 30-40 years old and hopefully taking my kids to the park I hope they still have the classics there but I want to see MY classics there too and I want to see them well represented. Pixar has changed my outlook on a lot of things, like I'm sure original Disney films did for MANY others. I think the reason for the Dwarf Coaster and the Clown Circus (ugh) is because Fantasy Land was something, correct me if I'm wrong, that Walt had blue printed before his untimely death. So I figure that they want his characters that he used in his films to have a big presence there I'm guessing. I'd love to see them expand Pixar Place and have the characters in there. I'd love to see a Toy Story dark ride that took us into their world. I'd love to have an attraction where I'm flying in Carl's house through the clouds. I want these things because for me, these are the films that got me into loving Disney even more than I had. These are the films that got me into loving the art of film-making. The power of the characters and the realness of them are unparalleled in today's art. So for me, maybe me alone, these characters are incredibly important to my life.

 

[Mansion Butler]

Pixar Place/Studios was a good idea for an area at Disney's Hollywood Studios park but there is no point in my humble opinion for an entire area when there is at least one Pixar movie based attractionne in th in each park and only one ride (another Toy Story themed shooter of all things) in Pixar Place.

The point would be to expand it, and also to provide a themed area for MM that fits the Studios.

Even though they are a part of Disney, they are in their own way a seprate entity so it does at times feel a little out of place.

In my anecdotal experience with most guests and non-Disney obsessives (like those of us here), this is not true. Raise up a conversation with Joe American about best Disney Feature Animations, and they'll bring up their favorite Pixar movie.