Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[MarkTwain]

I do, but the recollection is a bit hazy. I think the reason it did not go further is because there are huge issues with the various ports themselves being functionally hospitable to the huge draw of a Disneyland docking in foreign cultures. A logistical Juggernaut. The other thing is the down time you lose at sea and it's cost to move from place to place with little return. You have to remarket the entire project to a different culture every time you land, etc. $$$$. Maintenance at sea is huge with the erosive aspects of sea air, etc. Lots to think about. The WDC was not set up for this level of risk and fiscal adventure. The closest we'll likely get to this is a water coaster on the Disney Cruise ships. They are the best compromise and maybe they will evolve in that visionary direction.

Thanks Eddie, that's pretty much what I expected. This is one Disney project I suspect was a little too ambitious, and would never work logistically. I'd say Disney Cruise Line is an excellent compromise!

Isn't it just this influx that has kept DL at what many consider to be a superior level as far as attraction maintenance and technology? DL always seems to get updates and the best overlays first, while WDW is still guessing at the fate of SSE's descent. If you didn't sell so many AP's at DL, this might not be the case anymore.

DL must simply evolve to accommodate the crowds, or perhaps change the way their blackouts are structured to decrease the immediate impact beforehand. When sales of an AP are going so well, raising the price to discourage them seems the wrong move from a business perspective.

That's why I think this new "Weekly Select Passholder" (enter 33615 to see the page) could actually be a really good thing for WDW in the long run. A large number of annual passholders could become the "defenders of quality" for the resort, like those at Disneyland that may be responsible for the vastly improved offerings in their parks. A similar group at WDW would more likely notice a decline in maintenance or entertainment between visits, and force TDO to bring up its show standards.

It may even someday get us that Haunted Mansion Holiday and Small World Holiday we've always wanted. :shrug:

 

[_Scar]

BTW- Al Lutz has an interesting article at Miceage about how DL is close to hitting a million APs. If they go an average of ten times a year, that means the park could hit close to ten million guests just from AP's!! They all show up on the days the park is not blocked out in the offseason, wiping out the infrastructure, leaving the rest of the park comfy and quiet during blockouts. Just the opposite of the past. Annual passholders are a different breed and especially when they are the new majority. Interesting read as the park faces new challenges in both operation and show.

What you say?

I have a question-

If those APs go on average 10 times a year does that mean attendance counts for 10 million or 1 million because it doesnt repeat? :veryconfu

I'd hate to be DL right now with DCA up in walls and everyone crowding DL. Why aren't there 2 exits to help the guest flow out of DL?

 

[WDW1974]

BTW- Al Lutz has an interesting article at Miceage about how DL is close to hitting a million APs. If they go an average of ten times a year, that means the park could hit close to ten million guests just from AP's!! They all show up on the days the park is not blocked out in the offseason, wiping out the infrastructure, leaving the rest of the park comfy and quiet during blockouts. Just the opposite of the past. Annual passholders are a different breed and especially when they are the new majority. Interesting read as the park faces new challenges in both operation and show.

What you say?

I say the DL visit/experience has certainly changed with the dramatic rise of APers (and I was one from 1998-2008, and will be again soon) ... but they do change the whole complexion of the place. And I feel pretty safe in assuming that Walt wouldn't be thrilled about people using DLR as a baby-sitter or mall or place to hang out for 3-4 hours after work.

But they are a cash cow and are here to stay, much like timeshares and tacky pins.

I don't know that I'd call them a majority despite their numbers. As everyone uses an AP differently and lives in different places, so they visit differently.

I'm more interested in finding out how many WDW APers there are. This has become a very closely guarded secret. I think there are far more than people might think as over the last 10-15 years many people have realized the value of one if they're going to visit as little as twice a year (but stay for a while). It's just that more DL APers are local guests, where as WDW APers are just as likely to be from the UK as from O-Town or New Jersey as from Tampa or Massachusetts as Miami.:xmas:

 

[HMF]

Here's a nice interview with the guy who runs the Disney Museum. He addresses some of these things that were brought up a few pages ago. Quick read.

http://micechat.com/forums/walt-dis...hard-benefield-walt-disney-family-museum.html


I'm posting from Virgin America's free wifi from Google! At 35k feet!

WOW! Richard Sherman's comment was great. I always tell people in school (even teachers) That Walt was not an Anti-Semite and none of them believe me and they use this as justification.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1LlZ0nmOQo

 

[_Scar]

But they are a cash cow and are here to stay, much like timeshares and tacky pins.

Pins aren't tacky :/

The bad placements of pin stores is though. :lol:

 

[kcnole]

BTW- Al Lutz has an interesting article at Miceage about how DL is close to hitting a million APs. If they go an average of ten times a year, that means the park could hit close to ten million guests just from AP's!! They all show up on the days the park is not blocked out in the offseason, wiping out the infrastructure, leaving the rest of the park comfy and quiet during blockouts. Just the opposite of the past. Annual passholders are a different breed and especially when they are the new majority. Interesting read as the park faces new challenges in both operation and show.

What you say?

Personally I think the best thing for Disney to do is to discover what number of AP users they can actually handle and then do a statistical study to find out what price increase would bring in that number of APs. Either that or do away with the black out APs all together and only sell the main AP. It seems to me that if they raised the prices that they would lose a large number of APs but still keep the same profit.

 

[WDW1974]

I've seen it with my own eyes. The park has changed dramatically in the last 3 years, and compared to 10 years ago and what I remember from the latter decades of the 20th century, it's like night and day.

I dunno. I can say it has changed a lot from my first visit (back in 1990), but the last three years honestly don't seem much different than say 2002 did. certainly not night and day.

And as an Annual Passholder, I can honestly say it is for the worst. The recent Al Lutz articles (he also had one just on parking a month or two ago) on this issue hit the nail right on the head. I live in Villa Park, about 20 minutes from Disneyland, and the experience of just getting a parking spot and in to Main Street USA has become a total nightmare in the last year.

And once you get into the park? Forget about it if it's a Friday evening, a Sunday, or any of the days that lead up to a major blockout for the SoCal Select, SoCal, or Deluxe passes. They've got to do something, and the only resonse would seem to be increasing the prices quickly.

I think the biggest issue Al hit on the head would be parking. And that issue is squarely on Disney, not APers. Disney decided to expand the resort (a good thing) BEFORE adding the needed infrastructure (i.e. the second parking structure) and that's ultimately the biggest problem.

I haven't experienced the nightmare conditions you have, but I tend to know when they're coming and try my best to avoid them.

My last visit in September I was at the resort on a Friday and the following Monday. Friday I was there by noon and it was a very easy entry/parking and quite slow at both parks until ... yep ... school got out ... by 4:30, it started getting busier and by 7 p.m. it was packed at DL (less so at DCA). The following Monday was damn near empty all day at both parks and DD.

I disagree about raising prices. They've already raised them substantially. A two-park premium was $199 earlier this decade. My recent deluxe was ... I think $229 as I bought a voucher at a Disney Store after they had just raised prices. And now they're what? $289?

I know they want to cross the $500 barrier on the PAP badly ... and that likely will happen sooner than later.

But the 'cheapo' SoCal passes aren't going to be raised by much ... $5-15 a shot.

I said this on another board, but it is my opinion that the majority of us AP's are now using Disneyland wrong. It wasn't designed by Walt and his 20th century Imagineers to be a community center you drop in on for a few hours a dozen times per year. And the reworked "Disneyland Resort" of 1999-2001 also wasn't designed for this demographic, outside of date nighters going to Downtown Disney on Saturday nights. Disneyland and DCA and the overall Resort infrastructure wasn't designed to handle this type of workload and use, and the majority of us Passholders are simply doing it wrong when it comes to doing Disneyland.

Whether or not APers are 'doing it wrong' (and I agree in large part, even as I've been one of them!) really doesn't matter. They have been a big reason why DLR has perfromed so well financially, while the economy has tanked and in spite of management putting billions into the product.

You can say WDW APers are 'doing it wrong' too. When I visit, I can often spend six hours in a park without riding anything ... or spending anything (these days much easier to do). I may show up at EPCOT at 6 p.m. just to walk around World Showcase while sipping an adult beverage or two, have an ice cream and watch Illuminations.

So long as any park or resort (Disney or non-Disney) has a frequent guest pass, they're going to have people who see the park differently. I think that's a good thing too. Imagine if everyone just had to ride Space Mountain or ToT on every visit? ... You might get Tokyo-like lines!

I would be scared to see them try to recreate this scenario for WDW. Although I don't think they could get to the same level simply due to the population base of SoCal. There are 20 Million people in the five county area that is 90 freeway minutes from Disneyland, and Central Florida just can't recreate thost numbers.

But God help them if WDW tries to pump up their AP numbers by hundreds of thousands.

Well, like I said, I live in FLA (although I was bicoastal for years) and had a DL AP. I live in FLA and have a DLP AP now! ... Sure, immediate locals are a bigger 'issue' in Anaheim than Orlando. But I'd venture to say that Paris and Tokyo and Hong Kong too (not that crowding has been an issue there yet) all have substantially more 'local' APers. The lines I see and hear about in Tokyo dwarf what I see at WDW and DL, except on the busiest of days.

I think the issue is being able to spread the crowds out. At DLR, that's what the DCA Extreme Makeover will likely do. Staggering openings/closings and putting shows in both parks at the same time that APers (and others) will be drawn to would be smart too.

I'd be shocked if WoC didn't run at the exact times either pyro or Fantasmic runs at DL, for example.

I think WDW clearly, like DL and every Disney resort on earth, wants to expand the numbers of APers. WDW just recently introduced a week-day seasonal pass, for instance.

So, they aren't looking to get rid of APers ... and not in Anaheim either.:xmas:

 

[WDW1974]

It feels really strange to live in a state that is experiencing double digit unemployment with streets of vacant businesses, and you have to fight your way into this expensive theme park full of the rafters with locals! You look around in shock. Except that they all got in free. I'm fascinated by the new use patterns of the whole thing. You point it all out very well. It's true that the park was not really designed for this kind of usage, but it will have to evolve unless they change their policies. Interesting to see what happens.

Well, I wouldn't say they got in free by any stretch.

Even at lowest price points, APs may be discounted vs. the price of a one day admit. But they aren't free.

And before APs became so prevalent, the cost of getting into DL was a whole lot more reasonable.

I didn't renew my AP on my last visit because I had a friend comp me in for two days. But I was shocked at the price. A one-day hopper at DL is $97. That's just crazy to me (whether it's 'worth' it is a whole 'nother debate and I can argue both sides quite well).

And DL certainly wasn't built for that. I wonder if the concept of an AP ever crossed Walt's mind. I doubt it since in his era the thought of getting a drink refill for free was a crazy concept.

But you can argue that EVERY Disney park post-MK was designed with APers in mind since they were created in 1982 ... and if I am not mistaken the first APs at DL were sold about 2-3 years later.

Now ... whether anyone thought what having a million APs in Anaheim might mean is another matter. :xmas:

 

[WDW1974]

It seems locals are very different (and treated differently) in Cali than Orlando. Maybe they embrace Disneyland differently than Floridian's. Disneyland has always seemed to belong to the locals. That's not the feeling of the World. At least not anymore.

Very true. Locals views DL with more of a personal ownership/investment vibe. Generations have visited and it's always been special.

WDW, believe it or not, had a closer vibe in the 1970s and 80s when Orlando was a small metro area, not the giant sprawl it is now.

Many of the folks who had the same feelings for WDW, simply moved away when Central Florida became so crowded and overbuilt. The area is very transient now and has few people with roots that go back even 20 years ago. In Anaheim, you have people who go back generations.

You even see that 'tude on the fan sites (like this one) where you have WDW lovers that never visited the place even a decade ago. Newbies.

I think the location and the constant upgrading of Disneyland, and most importantly the poeple who run it, makes it a different animal. They don't seem to practice the same philosophy. Plus, you always have to stay on your toes when catering to locals. The World doesn't have to do that; or at least they think that way, but it isn't true.

True again.

WDW used to care about locals/Floridians a whole lot more in its first 25 years. Now, they're an afterthought at best. Usually, TDO does something to drive them away. From making them pay extra for holiday entertainment at MK to not leaving any tables open for walk ins at the full-serve dining establishments to dumbing the dining down and raising price points for DDP guests etc ... I'd hope that DVCers became a vocal crowd like the APers in Anaheim, but so many DVCers have joined in past decade and have pixie dust in their eyes, so they don't realize they are getting a diminished product.

But if the Disneyland Annual Passholders ARE your central customers, then they're just going to have to get rid of the blackout days. You'd think they end up making more money just on the fact that most passholders know when to go, like off season spells, but they could also have the luxury of going anytime they want also. It seems they just don't have to depend on the tourists anymore. Which is good for disneyland AP holders.

Tourists are still crucial to DLR's financial health. Over 60% of guests are tourists there. And they're the ones who are going to be staying at Disney's hotels, buying Disney's overpriced food and merchandise.

It's a balancing act, but you have to offer a high quality product that appeals to everyone from the once-in-a-lifetime visitor to the every 4-5 years out of towner, to the APer who isn't a local to the APer who lives 15 minutes away. :xmas:

 

[WDW1974]

TDL is primarily fed by it's local Tokyo and it's upkeep is the best in the system. Good point. We'll have to see how they handle this.

Exactly.

And Tokyo constantly offers a fresh product. From seasonal entertainment, parades, food and merchandise to pricey new attractions. :xmas:

 

[WDW1974]

WOW! Richard Sherman's comment was great. I always tell people in school (even teachers) That Walt was not an Anti-Semite and none of them believe me and they use this as justification.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1LlZ0nmOQo

I know Richard and Elizabeth and we've often joked about it, but it is quite sad that this ugly urban legend continues.

B'nai Brith named Walt it's Man of the Year ... something they'd tend to not be doing if the guy didn't like Jewish people.

And Walt was well-known for employing blacks and gays at his Studio, well before it was regular to do so in Hollywood.:xmas:

 

[tirian]

And Walt was well-known for employing blacks and gays at his Studio, well before it was regular to do so in Hollywood.:xmas:

According to several legitimate biographies, Walt was well-known for firing certain demographics on the spot. Not black or Jewish, though. That pretty much leaves just one left on your list.

Since I never met the man, I don't know.

 

[tirian]

Very true. Locals views DL with more of a personal ownership/investment vibe. Generations have visited and it's always been special.

WDW, believe it or not, had a closer vibe in the 1970s and 80s when Orlando was a small metro area, not the giant sprawl it is now.

Many of the folks who had the same feelings for WDW, simply moved away when Central Florida became so crowded and overbuilt. The area is very transient now and has few people with roots that go back even 20 years ago. In Anaheim, you have people who go back generations.

You even see that 'tude on the fan sites (like this one) where you have WDW lovers that never visited the place even a decade ago. Newbies.



True again.

WDW used to care about locals/Floridians a whole lot more in its first 25 years. Now, they're an afterthought at best. Usually, TDO does something to drive them away. From making them pay extra for holiday entertainment at MK to not leaving any tables open for walk ins at the full-serve dining establishments to dumbing the dining down and raising price points for DDP guests etc ... I'd hope that DVCers became a vocal crowd like the APers in Anaheim, but so many DVCers have joined in past decade and have pixie dust in their eyes, so they don't realize they are getting a diminished product.





Tourists are still crucial to DLR's financial health. Over 60% of guests are tourists there. And they're the ones who are going to be staying at Disney's hotels, buying Disney's overpriced food and merchandise.

It's a balancing act, but you have to offer a high quality product that appeals to everyone from the once-in-a-lifetime visitor to the every 4-5 years out of towner, to the APer who isn't a local to the APer who lives 15 minutes away. :xmas:

Quoted for truth because it's 100% accurate.

Interestingly, the LoW outburst seems to be WDW's first major DVC/AP PR disaster in its history.

EDIT: I think the 60% estimate depends on the day and season.

 

[tirian]

Question for Eddie

Eddie,

Since we're dangerously close to derailing your thread, here's a question regarding the AP thing:

In your experience, did Imagineering consider the local AP response to DL attractions vs. tourist reactions in WDW and DLP, or was that a nonissue? I ask because Internet rumors commonly credit slow development at WDW and DLP on the small local fanbases (when compared to DL).

 

[_Scar]

Is DL really 60% tourists? Seems like it'd be more like 60% locals.

 

[RandySavage]

Hi Eddie,

I've read online that one of the reasons that the OLC didn't go forward with the Sci-Fi City redo was the failure DL's Rocket Rods and the concerns that raised about one of Sci-Fi City's centerpiece attractions: Rocket Bikes.

How distinct were Rocket Bikes and Rocket Rods? Was this an issue?

Thanks.

 

[MarkTwain]

Hi Eddie,

I've read online that one of the reasons that the OLC didn't go forward with the Sci-Fi City redo was the failure DL's Rocket Rods and the concerns that raised about one of Sci-Fi City's centerpiece attractions: Rocket Bikes.

How distinct were Rocket Bikes and Rocket Rods? Was this an issue?

Thanks.

I think Rocket Rods could have worked, except that the cars' high speeds quickly tore up the tracks designed for the slow-moving PeopleMover. This likely wouldn't have been a problem for TDL, where a track would have been designed from scratch.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I think Rocket Rods could have worked, except that the cars' high speeds quickly tore up the tracks designed for the slow-moving PeopleMover. This likely wouldn't have been a problem for TDL, where a track would have been designed from scratch.

They didn't want to fund the R&D it would require to invent Rocket Bikes, but may go for it if Disney funded the R&D. WDI decided not to after prototyping a working bike. The Pressler years. Rocket Rods was already invented so TDL could just make another one, till it proved to be unreliable and that unraveled the whole ride. I had to do a feasibility concept (under protest) of doing the RRod ride system in SF City.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie,

Since we're dangerously close to derailing your thread, here's a question regarding the AP thing:

In your experience, did Imagineering consider the local AP response to DL attractions vs. tourist reactions in WDW and DLP, or was that a nonissue? I ask because Internet rumors commonly credit slow development at WDW and DLP on the small local fanbases (when compared to DL).

Only as a reaction. I left ten years ago before this got a head of steam. AP's use the park differently and to me that means you could make lots of money tweaking and evolving everything from menu items to interactive cell phone games. Make the details come alive for people and reward them for coming. People would pay a little to do something fun in the park. Look how the "trick or treat" thing did.

 

[BigThunderMatt]

I think Rocket Rods could have worked, except that the cars' high speeds quickly tore up the tracks designed for the slow-moving PeopleMover. This likely wouldn't have been a problem for TDL, where a track would have been designed from scratch.

I think it was a combination of the track and the concept of the ride. They just didn't go well together. Because they didn't want to bank the track, the cars had to slow down at every turn, which kind of defeated the purpose of the attraction.