Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[kcnole]

Interesting. I never realized that the scenes were supposed to be on flat sets. I always assumed it would be an extremely detailed set like Pirates and others. I think you're right that if it didn't have the immersion factor to it, that it would have detracted greatly. I think the big excitement everyone has over WRE is two fold.

1. It was massive. At that time we hadn't really seen anything of that size and scope really laid out. That one attraction was almost a land into itself with several rides and also bringing the train into the attraction. Everyone just really wishes they could have seen how it turned out.

2. It never was built, so in our minds it gets to look however we want to imagine it looking. Who knows if anyone would have truly liked it once it was built. Its like reading a book and imagining all the vivid details in your head and then seeing the movie and being totally disappointed that nobody looks how you envisioned them.

 

[kcnole]

On a separate issue I was reading your interview over at imagineering disney and saw a picture in there that blew my mind. Can you imagine having a tomorrowland somewhere with this type of architecture. That would be amazing, futuristic, and exciting. I would die from excitement if I walked into a tomorrowland with that type of aesthetic to it.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

On a separate issue I was reading your interview over at imagineering disney and saw a picture in there that blew my mind. Can you imagine having a tomorrowland somewhere with this type of architecture. That would be amazing, futuristic, and exciting. I would die from excitement if I walked into a tomorrowland with that type of aesthetic to it.

Yes, it would be truly awesome. The look of the DL 1967 T'land was not much different as it was Saarinen inspired, but didn't have the scope of Hadid. Look at the old Peoplemover beamway supports with the bevels and facets, very compatible with this new design. Santiago Calatrava has done some optimistic design that inspires as well. I love his look.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Interesting. I never realized that the scenes were supposed to be on flat sets. I always assumed it would be an extremely detailed set like Pirates and others. I think you're right that if it didn't have the immersion factor to it, that it would have detracted greatly. I think the big excitement everyone has over WRE is two fold.

Most people don't as it was sold as a Western version of POTC (I'd love that!), but in fact was far more whimsical and stylized. Here's a link to the history of the show and images. The most telling is the one of Marc in the model and you can see the stylized painted desert flats in the background.

http://www.omniluxe.net/wyw/wre.htm

And here's "America Sings" at DL. which opened in the mid seventies using this technique. It worked well in that you were watching a variety show intentionally on stage.

http://www.yesterland.com/amersings.html

It's true with a well known unbuilt project of mine called "Sci-Fi City".in (Universal Singapore took the name so it will never happen) It will live as a great example of what could be and no one can touch it's endless imaginary budget!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hey Eddie I was wondering what your thoughts are on the current state of The Wonders of Life Pavilion?

I don't get out to Walt Disney World very often so I'm not quite sure what the pavilion is used for other than what I read online. I think they use it as a pavilion space to support various festivals. If they gutted the interior and made it a really great event space then that could be one good option. So many events and festivals would be better if there was a sense of a permanent venue that could support projection and live theater, so perhaps this space would be flexible enough to support things like that.

The other thought that occurs to me is to gut the dome and do a pavilion that primarily deals in all of the new green technologies. Perhaps it's a trade show like environment that showcases how you can convert your lifestyle through all kinds of innovation and conservation. Innoventions covers some of this already, but dedicating a space with its own mission could be more powerful. The philosophy of "cradle to cradle" is powerful within itself. Everything from electric cars to energy management systems for your home to algae being used as jet fuel. It could all be under one roof. Stuff like that. Maybe there's daily giveaways of these kinds of things. It's too big of an issue to completely ignore as a part of a "future world". The trick here is to make it fun and something that is emotional, with a "call to action" that is not preached but suggested by example. so these are just some random thoughts that came to mind, I'm sure there are much better ideas out there.

Perhaps yours!

 

[misterID]

Eddie, what was the Beatles attraction that never happened you were talking about before? That's really got me curious.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, what was the Beatles attraction that never happened you were talking about before? That's really got me curious.

A combination live and multimedia show like "Beatlemania". I read somewhere that the Disney studio was considering producing a 3-D animated version of the Beatles psychedelic cartoon yellow submarine. I would totally check that out.

 

[_Scar]

Eddie you probably don't know this answer but....

do you have any idea the true reason why River Country shut down?

 

[HMF]

But not only did you suggest it, you backed it up with a design aspect of it that I had never heard mentioned before. I have very fond memories of America Sings, but it was a hokey show very of it's time, and it didn't need to survive past the mid 1980's. To think that WRE would have had similar design sensibilities makes me realize that it's a darn good thing WRE never materialized in its proposed Marc Davis format.

If anyone has ever seen concept art for WRE A lot of the drawings are very racially insensitive. So it probably would have closed long ago had it been built.(Considering that Disney refuses to release Song of the South and I don't really understand the problem with that movie.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie you probably don't know this answer but....

do you have any idea the true reason why River Country shut down?

I heard that it was because it was difficult to keep all three parks busy so they only need two at present. That's just what I heard.

 

[_Scar]

I heard that it was because it was difficult to keep all three parks busy so they only need two at present. That's just what I heard.

:lookaroun

Oooo never heard that before

Everytime I went to the water parks they were at capacity at noonish.

Think they'd ever reopen it?
:shrug:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

If anyone has ever seen concept art for WRE A lot of the drawings are very racially insensitive. So it probably would have closed long ago had it been built.(Considering that Disney refuses to release Song of the South and I don't really understand the problem with that movie.

This link ( http://www.omniluxe.net/wyw/wre.htm) has a great history of that attraction and why it didn't get built. And to your point, the treatment of Native Americans was one of the things mentioned. In some of the artwork you can see where changes had been made to eliminate some of the more offensive Indian references. So I would imagine that should they have decided to build it, that it would've gone through an edit or two.

I always have to remember that Marc Davis and even Walt Disney were part of another generation that had different sensibilities and sense of humor.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

:lookaroun

Oooo never heard that before

Everytime I went to the water parks they were at capacity at noonish.

Think they'd ever reopen it?
:shrug:

I don't think so. I was talking to a friend earlier this week who lives out there and mentioned three water parks and he corrected me that there were just two right now. Then went on to say that River Country was closed because three was not necessary.

 

[HMF]

I always have to remember that Marc Davis and even Walt Disney were part of another generation that had different sensibilities and sense of humor.

and that's where a lot of these untrue rumors about Walt (Which have been preached to me as fact.) start.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I've been scanning this thread for weeks, but this item popped out bold.

As someone who has been reading Disney theme park Internet chatter for about 13 years now, I can't thank you enough for giving your fresh thoughts on Western River Expedition. WRE seems to be the continual "holy grail" for Disney Geeks, from the old alt.disney.parks discussion boards of 1996 to the mega-site discussion boards of 2009. And all this time, I don't think anyone has ever dared suggest that it might be for the best that WRE never got built.

But not only did you suggest it, you backed it up with a design aspect of it that I had never heard mentioned before. I have very fond memories of America Sings, but it was a hokey show very of it's time, and it didn't need to survive past the mid 1980's. To think that WRE would have had similar design sensibilities makes me realize that it's a darn good thing WRE never materialized in its proposed Marc Davis format. (The 1970's WRE artwork on display in the Disneyland Hotel now seems even cheesier with this reference point!).

Thanks for shedding some light on the WRE myth that it could have been the greatest thing Imagineering ever did. Interestingly, after seeing the Radiator Springs Racers models and info at D23 Expo, I get the sense that attraction will be on the scale and scope of WRE but with a better chance of resonating with the audience from Day One through the next several decades at least. The massive rockwork facade alone has strong hints of the WRE show building.

Thanks again for convincing me WRE wasn't all it was cracked up to be. :wave:

Thanks. Considering WRE never got built, I guess we can only speculate. But I do know as a designer that the power of immersion is one of the strongest aspects to creating a great dark ride And the less you're conscious of being in a show building, the better. For those of you that loved "world of motion", that attraction stages its characters in a similar, "series of set pieces" way.

I spoke with someone this afternoon who has a tremendous depth of Disney history and he said that they had not even decided whether that attraction would be a boat ride or not. It was his opinion that the show was really not "locked in". I never want to be the person that prematurely judges something without seeing it, but the models gave me an impression that the show was very theatrical and surreal. One of the things I did read was that the attraction was more of a musical than Pirates of the Caribbean. If that's the case then I understand the theatrical point of view of the sets. I just happen to prefer the more realistic escape that the Pirates attraction has always been based on. It's hard to beat coming out of the cave and finding a full sized ship shelling a town.

Anyway, I'm not out to stir the hornet's nest, but just had a opinion. Thanks for yours! Keep posting!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

and that's where a lot of these untrue rumors about Walt (Which have been preached to me as fact.) start.

To counter some of that, Walt knew that the Sherman Brothers were Jewish. He would have them come to his office and play "Feed the Birds" to him as he loved it so much. They were riding along with him in his T-Bird when one of them said they were thinking of donating the publishing rights to the song they wrote "It's a Small World" to it's sponsor Unicef. When Walt heard this he hit the brakes, and basically said "Are you nuts?" and went on to say that wanted them to have those rights so they could send their kids to college on what that fortune that song would make. Walt sincerely cared about them and wanted only the best for their families. This does not sound like someone who was a hater.

 

[Mansion Butler]

To counter some of that, Walt knew that the Sherman Brothers were Jewish. He would have them come to his office and play "Feed the Birds" to him as he loved it so much. They were riding along with him in his T-Bird when one of them said they were thinking of donating the publishing rights to the song they wrote "It's a Small World" to it's sponsor Unicef. When Walt heard this he hit the brakes, and basically said "Are you nuts?" and went on to say that wanted them to have those rights so they could send their kids to college on what that fortune that song would make. Walt sincerely cared about them and wanted only the best for their families. This does not sound like someone who was a hater.

I read this in the amazing book "Remembering Walt."

 

[Mansion Butler]

Thanks. Considering WRE never got built, I guess we can only speculate. But I do know as a designer that the power of immersion is one of the strongest aspects to creating a great dark ride And the less you're conscious of being in a show building, the better. For those of you that loved "world of motion", that attraction stages its characters in a similar, "series of set pieces" way.

It often occurs to me, and has been talked about in some books, that this is the way Marc Davis seemed to have thought to me. It seems as though he thought clever sight gags and characters were all you needed to have a good attraction, and had little interest in a guy like Claude Coats's desire to provide depth, theming and immersive backgrounds.

And I know Davis is a legend, and justifiably so, and I feel like a heathen in these parts when I say this, but: I'm not a big fan of that. I feel like Davis was better when his ideas were included as a part of an attraction equally contributed on by others (something I know from his own quotes he didn't like doing as much), like the Haunted Mansion.

Further, I've heard stories of how upset he was over WRE not coming to fruition, how difficult he was in the creation of the Mansion, and how livid he was over America Sings going bye bye, and these could all be hearsay, but it makes me less enamoured with him than most Disney fans seem to be. I appreciate someone presenting the idea that maybe losing WRE for the version of BTM we got might just have been a good idea.

Again, not to say Davis was not a mighty Imagineer, but it is possible that every idea he had was not gold. (And I'm pretty sure, Mr. Sotto, that I'm not preaching to you.)

I just happen to prefer the more realistic escape that the Pirates attraction has always been based on.

Same here, sir. Same here. Maybe if I ever actually give up being a lowly attractions CM and try and get in to WDI I can do something that actually impresses you.

(I've got to, y'know, try, first.)

Anyway, I'm not out to stir the hornet's nest, but just had a opinion.

And thank you for it.

 

[Giraffe Lounge]

Santiago Calatrava has done some optimistic design that inspires as well. I love his look.

I just want to highlight this because he is one of my absolute favorite architects/ designers (I place his work somewhere between architecture and art... which an interesting discussion in itself).

When I drove from Pittsburgh to California I stopped in the Milwaukee Art Museum, which he created, and it was one of those moments as an artist that made me want to strive for the best work I could possibly do, seeing that accomplishment.

For those who aren't familiar, a (very) few of my favorite images:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I just want to highlight this because he is one of my absolute favorite architects/ designers (I place his work somewhere between architecture and art... which an interesting discussion in itself).

When I drove from Pittsburgh to California I stopped in the Milwaukee Art Museum, which he created, and it was one of those moments as an artist that made me want to strive for the best work I could possibly do, seeing that accomplishment.

For those who aren't familiar, a (very) few of my favorite images:

Very Tomorrowland to say the least. Architecture that has optimism built in is where T'land 3.0 could be headed. Thanks for sharing.