Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[HMF]

But for you to say, or insinuate that an individual is going to fund a billion dollar theme park as a front for molesting children is absurd.

I think that his motivation was because of his lack of a real childhood and the way he was treated as a child. (Being forced to call his dad by his first name etc.) I do think however attracting little kids to his house was a secondary motivation by the same coin I really don't know if he thought what he was doing was illegal.

 

[Fade_to_Blah]

Folks this really isnt the thread for this discussion. If you want to talk about it do it elsewhere...I dont want to speak for Eddie, but he probably doesnt want to discuss what Michael Jackson may or may not have done.

I know I want to read more of his opinions on parks and working at Imagineering

 

[_Scar]

I love how innocent until proven guilty means nothing to people.

Anyway, as for the Neverland Park...THAT would have been one heck of a Fantasyland expansion.

Of course, Pan isn't being marketed these days.:zipit:

He's been flying on top of my screen for weeks! lol Apparently he wants me in WDW!



I was sorta disappointed with the "big" post DL&M was going to make. That Neverland park seemed like a bad armchair Imagineering idea gone horribly wrong. The whole park is based off one single movie that is way past its glory days.

What if you don't care for that movie? The park would of been a huge turn off.

MJ should of tried to build this at his ranch though besides the DCA he built.... :lol: ZING.

 

[kcnole]

Wow, how have I missed this thread for months. I do believe that this is probably the single most amazing thread I've ever read on a message board (and I've been following them since the early BBS days). Eddie, thank you so much for all the time you've taken out to answer questions from us crazy fans.

There was something you mentioned probably about 50 pages back that nobody really talked about. I hope its ok to bring it up now. You were discussing the ideas behind building a ride that appeals to both children and adults at the same time. I was reminded of the quote from Walt where he explains why he built Disneyland in the first place, that he wanted a place where parents and their children could have fun together.

It also reminded me of my childhood, about what makes my visits to WDW so memorable to me. It wasn't really the individual rides, or shows, parades, or fireworks. It was enjoying those things with my entire family. My favorite trip memory had my sister, my parents, and my grandparents together and everyone of us were able to ride everything together (aside from maybe Space Mountain). Its those memories of watching my grandfather laugh on Pirates and the like that are so great to me. All of us from children to grandparents were having a great time, enjoying the same thing together.

That reminded me of another Walt quote where he states that he doesn't believe in speaking down to Children, that they're always reaching, and if you set the bar high enough on an attraction, they'll reach up to it.

Thinking about these thoughts led me to look at the design concepts that have come out lately in the parks. We have an emphasis on designing either a thrill ride or a kiddie ride. It seems this idea of designing rides that the entire family can enjoy together is taking a back seat. The idea of creating rides with adult topics that we expect the children to reach for doesn't happen too often.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on this when designing rides. How do you reach that bar that keeps a ride entertaining for adults and children. The parks used to do that a lot. It didn't matter what age you were, there was something in that ride that was going to speak to you. Now too often it seems to me that the ride is focused primarily on children, or on that thrill demographic which leaves part of the family sitting on a bench outside waiting for others to ride.

This saddens me. I wouldn't have had those great memories if I went to ride a ride and my grandparents had to sit on a bench because it was too intense for them, or if I didn't see my parents laughing at the same ride I was.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I was wondering what your thoughts were on this when designing rides. How do you reach that bar that keeps a ride entertaining for adults and children. The parks used to do that a lot. It didn't matter what age you were, there was something in that ride that was going to speak to you. Now too often it seems to me that the ride is focused primarily on children, or on that thrill demographic which leaves part of the family sitting on a bench outside waiting for others to ride.

One example of designing for the family could be "Pooh's Honey Hunt" in Tokyo Disneyland. The ride had to be sophisticated enough to attract adults, but cute and childlike enough to work for the whole family. In Japan, the challenge was to attract "office ladies" that would invite a boy to take them to Disneyland. "Office ladies" usually live at home but are of college age or in their 20's and have disposable income. So the idea was to take the most sophisticated technology and special effects we had used elsewhere, combine them with a breakthrough ride system (wireless vehicles), and a hugely cute character. We took something that would be typically done with black light and plywood sets as a Fantasyland dark ride, and translated it into an "E ticket" scale megashow. This had not been done before. The repeatability of the ride due to its magical nature is kind of unparalleled as the wait times even with fast pass where many hours long and it was the most popular ride in the park for the least five years if not more. Usually new rides where off in 18 months, this did not happen with Pooh. Like a Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, a coaster that is neither too fast or too slow, but just right for the family becomes timeless. I think by going "all the way" with the technology and special effects in Winnie the Pooh we were able to create something that was magical for everyone. I don't believe that the other Winnie the Pooh rides achieved this level of repeatability and success. (they also didn't have the budget!) So in answer to your question, you can design on two levels, one, the simplicity of story for a child, and then sustain the magic in a very high level to entertain an adult. that's why I think Disney animated films have done so well over the years is that grown-ups sense the incredible level of execution given to a simple story and they appreciate it. That execution allows the spell of fantasy not to be broken no matter who is in the audience.

Here's a link to it.
http://www.tdrfan.com/tdl/fantasyland/poohs_hunny_hunt/index.htm

Thrill rides by nature are self editing as the intensity sorts out the age group of the guests. Theatrical show experiences are usually broader in nature. Big thunder hit the sweet spot of intensity. Teens outgrow it but families still love it. That I think is the real success of that show (because visually and creatively it's really not that original), is in its execution, as it has been done at such a high level it's a fantastic attraction.

I hope this answers your question.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

That Neverland park seemed like a bad armchair Imagineering idea gone horribly wrong. The whole park is based off one single movie that is way past its glory days.

What if you don't care for that movie? The park would of been a huge turn off.

MJ should of tried to build this at his ranch though besides the DCA he built.... :lol: ZING.

The longer you look at that park plan the more things come to light. It seemed like in the later plan they were trying to incorporate the future and a few other Disneyland like elements. It seemed like the park was heavily dependent upon simulators which doesn't make it a very dynamic place. This could've been a budget driven direction. I kind of agree that it's risky basing a whole theme park on one story, but I guess it all depends on how good and how broad the themes of the story are. Universal is betting everything on Harry Potter, and to the audience that is what they are coming for. It's what gets you in the gate. Peter Pan I guess is about boyhood fantasy, or the child in all of us. The idea of being a child eternally is pretty compelling. Are those environments enough? Maybe not. But they are embracing all kinds of themes with in the envelope of that story. Never never land has everything from Indians to trolls so I would imagine it's open ended. The funny thing to me was that the first attraction was flying their witch makes perfect sense. But you would hate to open with the most compelling part of the whole part because everything else would be downhill from there. To fly in my opinion is what Peter Pan is all about. When my kids were little they would go on the ride and stretch their arms out and squint their eyes so they could pretend like they were really flying. That always impressed me. So in a sense I think they're on to something with using Peter Pan, but to your point how big can it be?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Iaapa

Since this is a bit of an insider's thread, I thought this to be relevant.

One thing you do most every year if you are in this business is go to the big annual trade convention, IAAPA. This year it's in Vegas and is next week from Tuesday through Friday. they have seminars and a big exhibit floor filled with rides for sale and even design firms are there to pitch their wares. I've been going for decades most every year. I'm paying a couple hundred bucks as im not a member of the association, but if you have the cash and like Vegas, or aspire to meet and network in the field it may be worthwhile. One of the seminars is "Disney Legends panel discussion" mentioned below.

http://www.iaapa.org/

Disney Legends: Working with Walt, 3:30 – 4:45 p.m., Nov. 18, Las Vegas Convention Center
A cast of Disney Legends will take the stage to reflect on their personal experiences working with Walt Disney and what they learned from his leadership. The panel includes famous contributors to the Disney reputation like Imagineer Marty Sklar, feasibility founder Harrison “Buzz” Price, technology wizard Bob Gurr, animator/sculptor Blaine Gibson, and songwriter Richard Sherman, who composed music for attractions like “It’s a Small World.”

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Walt Stories

Yesterday I had the opportunity to have lunch with Imagineer Marty Sklar and his lovely daughter at Rivera. He is doing well and very busy post Disney. Of course, Marty always has a great "Walt" story to share (and will share more next week at IAAPA). I thought you all might enjoy it too.

There was to be about to be a design review meeting about Small World in the model shop, the centerpiece being an exterior model of the attraction as it would be at Disneyland. There were miniature foam trees lined up on the roof of the show building (behind the facade) awaiting their final placement by the staff when Walt strode in early! Before the modelers could rush to place the trees around the waterway he stopped them and asked why they were taking them off the roof. They explained and he stopped them saying "leave 'em right there!". They built the project that way with tree boxes atop the roof of the show building, providing a beautiful green backdrop to accent the white skyline of that memorable facade. A happy accident made possible by looking at something with no rules applied. A lesson for all of us.

Marty also confirmed what I was told, that it was Herb Ryman, out of a dissatisfaction with how the front of the castle he illustrated had been interpreted, turned the central tower around on the model to his liking just in time for Walt to walk in, see it, and approve it. This won him no favor with the dissenting art directors! (The Disney Gallery at Disneyland tells it as if Walt did this.)

What is your favorite or most inspiring "Walt" story or quote?

 

[HMF]

Hi' Eddie. I just found something that intrigued me. We know that you worked on DL's Jungle Cruise upgrade in 1994. and I was just reading a before and after page with a part on minor changes to the Jungle Cruise native scenes and I immediately thought of you. Were you involved in the changes described?
http://www.yesterland.com/changes4.html

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

Yesterday I had the opportunity to have lunch with Imagineer Marty Sklar and his lovely daughter at Rivera. He is doing well and very busy post Disney. Of course, Marty always has a great "Walt" story to share (and will share more next week at IAAPA). I thought you all might enjoy it too.There was to be about to be a design review meeting about Small World in the model shop, the centerpiece being an exterior model of the attraction as it would be at Disneyland. There were miniature foam trees lined up on the roof of the show building (behind the facade) awaiting their final placement by the staff when Walt strode in early! Before the modelers could rush to place the trees around the waterway he stopped them and asked why they were taking them off the roof. They explained and he stopped them saying "leave 'em right there!". They built the project that way with tree boxes atop the roof of the show building, providing a beautiful green backdrop to accent the white skyline of that memorable facade. A happy accident made possible by looking at something with no rules applied. A lesson for all of us.

I remember reading a similar story, but that the idea was that having the trees there would serve as a visual trick to fool the Guests into thinking that there wasn't a giant show building behind the big facade.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

One example of designing for the family could be "Pooh's Honey Hunt" in Tokyo Disneyland. The ride had to be sophisticated enough to attract adults, but cute and childlike enough to work for the whole family. In Japan, the challenge was to attract "office ladies" that would invite a boy to take them to Disneyland. "Office ladies" usually live at home but are of college age or in their 20's and have disposable income. So the idea was to take the most sophisticated technology and special effects we had used elsewhere, combine them with a breakthrough ride system (wireless vehicles), and a hugely cute character. We took something that would be typically done with black light and plywood sets as a Fantasyland dark ride, and translated it into an "E ticket" scale megashow. This had not been done before. The repeatability of the ride due to its magical nature is kind of unparalleled as the wait times even with fast pass where many hours long and it was the most popular ride in the park for the least five years if not more. Usually new rides where off in 18 months, this did not happen with Pooh. Like a Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, a coaster that is neither too fast or too slow, but just right for the family becomes timeless. I think by going "all the way" with the technology and special effects in Winnie the Pooh we were able to create something that was magical for everyone. I don't believe that the other Winnie the Pooh rides achieved this level of repeatability and success. (they also didn't have the budget!) So in answer to your question, you can design on two levels, one, the simplicity of story for a child, and then sustain the magic in a very high level to entertain an adult. that's why I think Disney animated films have done so well over the years is that grown-ups sense the incredible level of execution given to a simple story and they appreciate it. That execution allows the spell of fantasy not to be broken no matter who is in the audience.

Here's a link to it.
http://www.tdrfan.com/tdl/fantasyland/poohs_hunny_hunt/index.htm

Thrill rides by nature are self editing as the intensity sorts out the age group of the guests. Theatrical show experiences are usually broader in nature. Big thunder hit the sweet spot of intensity. Teens outgrow it but families still love it. That I think is the real success of that show (because visually and creatively it's really not that original), is in its execution, as it has been done at such a high level it's a fantastic attraction.

I hope this answers your question.

I just have to say that Pooh's Hunny Hunt at TDL is far and away my family's favorite Disney ride on the entire PLANET. Literally.

So... Thanks for that. :wave:

I'm reminded of it anytime the kids watch something having to do with Pooh... Without fail, they both start chanting "cute skeeto!!" (obviously the spelling and probably pronunciation is wrong). But that's what you hear when Pooh eats too much honey and you're about to enter the Heffalump room where the ride gets crazy. It obviously translates to "beware".

But I thought you might like to hear that at least once a week, I am reminded of the incredible Winnie the Pooh ride that's WAYY too far away from us. :lol:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hi' Eddie. I just found something that intrigued me. We know that you worked on DL's Jungle Cruise upgrade in 1994. and I was just reading a before and after page with a part on minor changes to the Jungle Cruise native scenes and I immediately thought of you. Were you involved in the changes described?
http://www.yesterland.com/changes4.html

The widening of the Ad'land Entrance yes. It was a Fantasmic! bottleneck, so on the right side there is a wider foundation, but the masks on the natives on the JC no. I think that happened earlier. The Boathouse as you note, was on my watch as well as the overall 94 Adventureland redo.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

But I thought you might like to hear that at least once a week, I am reminded of the incredible Winnie the Pooh ride that's WAYY too far away from us. :lol:

I wish more people could see it, it's lots of fun and very magical.

 

[WDW1974]

I wish more people could see it, it's lots of fun and very magical.

I can't wait to ride next year. I only wish that was the Pooh attraction we got at WDW and DL. Can you get me some VIP Fastpasses? :xmas:

On another subject, what's your take on Tom Staggs taking over P&R?
Do you know him at all? Any opinions from folks you talk with at WDI?

A friend seems to think he might be a hatchet man designed to move WDI closer to UNI Creative.

I tend to think that won't happen with all the projects in the pipeline, including a huge new resort in China, but Disney could always use contractors, including folks like yourself who once were employees.

Any thoughts?

 

[HMF]

Here is another Jungle Cruise related article on the same site. Any insight or involvement (Besides the Boathouse of course.)
http://yesterland.com/junglecruise.html

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I can't wait to ride next year. I only wish that was the Pooh attraction we got at WDW and DL. Can you get me some VIP Fastpasses? :xmas:

On another subject, what's your take on Tom Staggs taking over P&R?
Do you know him at all? Any opinions from folks you talk with at WDI?

A friend seems to think he might be a hatchet man designed to move WDI closer to UNI Creative.

I tend to think that won't happen with all the projects in the pipeline, including a huge new resort in China, but Disney could always use contractors, including folks like yourself who once were employees.

Any thoughts?

Sure. I didn't really know Tom Staggs, but my sense is that he was involved in major funding decisions with Jay all along so there won't be much difference there in the bigger picture. I do think that in the future WDI may use outside contractors in a broader fashion, but that may not be bad depending on whom they choose. Would hiring Steve Kirk as a design consultant be a bad thing? A step forward IMHO.

 

[TP2000]

I am reminded of the incredible Winnie the Pooh ride that's WAYY too far away from us. :lol:

Tokyo is not close, but it's not exactly on the moon either. Japan Air Lines, All Nippon Air, Delta, American, United, US Airways, Continental, Korean Air, Singapore, and Air Canada all offer non-stop direct service to Tokyo from many major North American cities. You can find Economy round trip fares around $600, and Premium Economy on Japan Air Lines (which is like domestic First Class seats and service really) for around $1100.

Tokyo is wonderful, and no more expensive to visit than any big American city. If you need to, you can do a week in Tokyo for very cheap and still be very safe and secure and well fed. Tickets to Tokyo Disneyland actually run cheaper than the American parks, surprisingly.

If you want to go to Tokyo, pass up on a visit to WDW or Disneyland and go to Tokyo instead. It's not hard to do really.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

If you want to go to Tokyo, pass up on a visit to WDW or Disneyland and go to Tokyo instead. It's not hard to do really.

You get a very different Disney experience from the cast as well. Tokyo itself is Tomorrowland! Good idea to switch off one year, especially if you've never seen TDS.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Eddie....Any thoughts on SM?:wave:

 

[_Scar]

Tokyo's pretty far from Florida... plus there's a language and food barrier. I'd rather head to England and just take the Paris train.